3tph on North Downs Line

Network Rail have still not uploaded the correct Saturday timetable, despite it now having been agreed (and fully completed in internal systems) for a couple of weeks. Needless to say (and without going into detail) GWR are unhappy about this and pressing for the correct data to be published.

Midweek timetable is broadly correct but a few omissions / errors still shown. Also being chased by the TOC.

These things do drag on don’t they!

Edit/clarification: The Saturday timetable will be a mirror of the midweek off peak pattern, xx32 fast / xx04 slow from Reading, xx00 fast from Gatwick, xx30 slow from Redhill. With a couple of exceptions due to pathing around other operators, and unit working at the Reading end. There will not be any overtaking at Guildford.
Plus - I’m pretty certain the late night Gatwick-Reading will be calling at North Camp and Blackwater as it currently does.

higthomas said:

So I assume 3tph is a long long way off then?

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Until mitigation works are completed, sadly yes. However the aspiration (and ultimately DfT contractual requirement) remains, so there is a good chance it will happen in the future.

Wilts Wanderer said:

Plus - I’m pretty certain the late night Gatwick-Reading will be calling at North Camp and Blackwater as it currently does.

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I assume not Farnborough North - meaning the last stopping service between Guildford and Reading will be nearly half hour earlier than currently, which is pretty poor.

The current late night service on Saturdays doesn’t call at Farnborough North. The last couple of services are pretty similar times to now, with the same stopping patterns. The final stopper is the 2219 from Gatwick.

https://www.gwr.com/~/media/gwr/pdfs/timetables/2018/amended-jan/t9,-d-,web.pdf?la=en
(Link to current timetable)

Wilts Wanderer said:

I’m pretty certain the late night Gatwick-Reading will be calling at North Camp and Blackwater as it currently does.

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Thanks!

Pdf timetable now available on the GWR website.

https://www.gwr.com/~/media/gwr/pdfs/timetables/2018/may/t09,-d-,web.pdf?la=en

Unfortunately this shows a mistake with the timing of the first two stopping trains from Redhill which are shown all stations but will in practice be subject to delayed departure from Reigate waiting for a Southern train to leave the platform. One or two other inconsistencies at other times as well - e.g. 1836 Reading to Gatwick running non-stop from Wokingham to Guildford - online sources suggest 1831 with normal calling pattern.

What is with the train at 1243 on Saturday from Redhill to Reading leaving then and not at 1230?

The 1243 is timed differently due to a test train path occupying the natural xx30 slot over the Gomshall section. I can’t speak for the other differences, beyond stating that there are still some last-minute discussions concerning individual workings.

Wilts Wanderer said:

Until mitigation works are completed, sadly yes. However the aspiration (and ultimately DfT contractual requirement) remains, so there is a good chance it will happen in the future.

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What mitigation works could they possibly do to enable it to happen?

JonathanH said:

Pdf timetable now available on the GWR website.

https://www.gwr.com/~/media/gwr/pdfs/timetables/2018/may/t09,-d-,web.pdf?la=en

Unfortunately this shows a mistake with the timing of the first two stopping trains from Redhill which are shown all stations but will in practice be subject to delayed departure from Reigate waiting for a Southern train to leave the platform. One or two other inconsistencies at other times as well - e.g. 1836 Reading to Gatwick running non-stop from Wokingham to Guildford - online sources suggest 1831 with normal calling pattern.

What is with the train at 1243 on Saturday from Redhill to Reading leaving then and not at 1230?

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Does this mean the fist two stopping trains will have an earlier departure time in the public timetable to that of the working timetable?

That does already happen. The 8.12 Waterloo to Basingstoke has a public timetable departure at Clapham Junction of 8.19 and a working timetable departure of 8.20.

infobleep said:

Does this mean the fist two stopping trains will have an earlier departure time in the public timetable to that of the working timetable?

That does already happen. The 8.12 Waterloo to Basingstoke has a public timetable departure at Clapham Junction of 8.19 and a working timetable departure of 8.20.

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One minute here or there happens all over the network to allow for pathing and to keep consistent public timetable times. The more worrying thing with the first stopping service from Redhill is that the printed timetable will show it stopping at the local stations whereas the online timetable doesn't.

Mitigation works involve modification of level crossings, upgrading of protection systems at footpath / farm crossings etc. For example, fitting red/green warning lights or CCTV monitoring rather than just passive provision of telephones etc.

Wilts Wanderer said:

Mitigation works involve modification of level crossings, upgrading of protection systems at footpath / farm crossings etc. For example, fitting red/green warning lights or CCTV monitoring rather than just passive provision of telephones etc.

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To resolve down time issues, and assuming the signals are at minimum spacing from the crossing, the only mitigation is to permanently close the crossing.

It seems there was another last minute change to the May timetable that is not welcome at all. According to GWR platform posters, the 0903 Gatwick - Reading was booked to call at North Camp and Blackwater, however the timetable has been updated to remove these calls. The result is the service to Reading from these stations has been reduced to hourly between 0930 and 1030.

Also introducing skipstopping in the May timetable means there are no local all stations services towards Reading in the Blackwater Valley conurbation (Ash, North Camp, Farnborough North, Blackwater and Sandhurst) between 0830 and 1030. It is far from satisfactory to significantly downgrade the service at a busy time on a well used stretch of the line.

Likewise the 1732 (was 1734) from Reading no longer calls at Farnborough North, reducing the service to this station to hourly in the evening peak. This was a popular stop on a busy service and I'd imagine GWR's complaints department will know all about it.

Presumably the complaints department will respond with a message along the lines of 'We have had to retime a number of services to fit in with available platform capacity at Redhill. This has led to some difficult decisions about calling points for trains elsewhere on the route.'

I wonder, if performance of 769s is better than Turbos, some of the stops can be reinstated. I guess the timetable remains under review.

JonathanH said:

Presumably the complaints department will respond with a message along the lines of 'We have had to retime a number of services to fit in with available platform capacity at Redhill. This has led to some difficult decisions about calling points for trains elsewhere on the route.'

I wonder, if performance of 769s is better than Turbos, some of the stops can be reinstated. I guess the timetable remains under review.

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The 769's will almost certainly be better between Reading and Wokingham and other sections where they can use the third rail, what they are like on diesel is up for debate.

They could be quick off the mark of they can get enough power or they could be slower if they struggle to generate the power required.

Well I was on the 18:11 from Guidford tonight which left 3 minutes late. The 17:50 was already laye due to a problen currently under investigation.

That problem is still showing as currently under investigation. As is the 17:36 to Shalford.

We eventually got to Redhill about 6 down and left there 16 minutes down as we were waiting for a red signal.

Rather long time to be waiting when no trains had departed for some minutes. I asked a member of platform staff as I'd not heard anything, they said it was a red signal but we would depart first. To their credit we did indeed depart first.

I eventually heard some muffled slightly distant anouncement from the guard or driver as we were about to pull into Gatwick Airport. Alas I couldn't make out what they said. Before that I'd asked on Twitter but later read they were currently investigating the cause. I shall ask them what was it was as I'm genuinely interested.

The 10:09 got into Redhill 24 minutes late this morning due to congestion. It should have gone to Gatwick but was cancelled. I did wonder if the train had acquired most of its delay at Redhill would they have cancelled the finall stop? I mean the 18:11 didn't lose Gatwick Airport, abet that was only 16 minutes late leaving Redhill.

I noticed that there is no longer a consistent time that the trains stop at Guildford on route to Gatwick. It ranges from 06 past to 13 past, with two late services at 23:20 and 23:21.

It does mean you arrivd mostly at 50 past the hour into Gatwick at least.

I also noticed the 17:31 stops additionally at Sandhurst and Crowthorns and arrives into Guildford at 18:10, whereas the 08:32 doesn't stop at those and arrives into Guildford at 09:12. I wonder could that train stop at either of those stations or two of the others on route to Guildford? I mean the 17:31 stops at two additional stations, yet is timetabled to be 1 minute faster than the 08:32.

I appreciate the timetable is to fit around South Western Railway services but given there is time, why not use it?

I wonder if changes to the South Western Railway timetable in December will allow slightly more consistency in depature times from Guildford, although maybe more consistency in the arrival times at Gatick Airport, as now, is better.

FenMan said:

It seems there was another last minute change to the May timetable that is not welcome at all. According to GWR platform posters, the 0903 Gatwick - Reading was booked to call at North Camp and Blackwater, however the timetable has been updated to remove these calls. The result is the service to Reading from these stations has been reduced to hourly between 0930 and 1030.

Also introducing skipstopping in the May timetable means there are no local all stations services towards Reading in the Blackwater Valley conurbation (Ash, North Camp, Farnborough North, Blackwater and Sandhurst) between 0830 and 1030. It is far from satisfactory to significantly downgrade the service at a busy time on a well used stretch of the line.

Likewise the 1732 (was 1734) from Reading no longer calls at Farnborough North, reducing the service to this station to hourly in the evening peak. This was a popular stop on a busy service and I'd imagine GWR's complaints department will know all about it.

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The skip stopping in the morning peak up the Blackwater Valley is the worst aspect of this new timetable. I'm now adding to the congestion on the Meadows as a direct result of these timetable changes. Whilst I understand pathing issues are the background reason for this, some of the decisions seem bizarre. Why stop the 0910 ex Guildford at Wanborough, when there are plenty of alternatives rather than Farnborough North, which now has a 90 minute gap in the late morning peak.

Bill Badger said:

The skip stopping in the morning peak up the Blackwater Valley is the worst aspect of this new timetable. I'm now adding to the congestion on the Meadows as a direct result of these timetable changes. Whilst I understand pathing issues are the background reason for this, some of the decisions seem bizarre. Why stop the 0910 ex Guildford at Wanborough, when there are plenty of alternatives rather than Farnborough North, which now has a 90 minute gap in the late morning peak.

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Agreed. However I fear your switch to the car will start to hurt next week, as the year long roadworks to redesign the Meadows roundabout system are due to start (the redesign will enable traffic from Blackwater and Yateley to head directly to M3 Junction 4 instead of making a full circuit of the roundabout). As a Blackwater resident, I anticipate my already fairly rare visits to Camberley will stop altogether during this disruption!

FenMan said:

Agreed. However I fear your switch to the car will start to hurt next week, as the year long roadworks to redesign the Meadows roundabout system are due to start (the redesign will enable traffic from Blackwater and Yateley to head directly to M3 Junction 4 instead of making a full circuit of the roundabout). As a Blackwater resident, I anticipate my already fairly rare visits to Camberley will stop altogether during this disruption!

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Will cycle when the weather is good!

Pleased to see that GWR are still tweaking the timetable and have been able to restore some of the linkages they recently lost. In particular since last week the 0910 Guildford to Reading now stops all stations filling that horrendous 90 minute gap north from Farnborough North and replacing some of the lost linkages. It wasn't on journeys planners at first but is now, although no mention of the improvement on their Website. Hopefully further 'improvements' to come, at least to get us back to where we were at the start of last month.

Bill Badger said:

Pleased to see that GWR are still tweaking the timetable and have been able to restore some of the linkages they recently lost. In particular since last week the 0910 Guildford to Reading now stops all stations filling that horrendous 90 minute gap north from Farnborough North and replacing some of the lost linkages. It wasn't on journeys planners at first but is now, although no mention of the improvement on their Website. Hopefully further 'improvements' to come, at least to get us back to where we were at the start of last month.

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Has this led to a later arrive into Reading?

infobleep said:

Has this led to a later arrive into Reading?

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Yes 9 minutes - 0958 as opposed to 0949. I guess it then forms the 1004 back, which is quite a luxurious turn around on this route!

According to recent train times the 9.09 from Guidford either got into Reading at 9.52 or 9.54. When it was 9.52 it was on average a minute late. When it was the 9.54 arrival it was on time. Now it's the 9.10 depature and 9.58 arrival, it's on average 3 minutes late.

Perhaps related to now being booked behind the 0837 Waterloo - Reading from Wokingham instead of in front of it.

Sadly, it seems 2tph is a struggle - various rail and signalling faults have bedevilled the line for several weeks. These are the stats for through Reading - Gatwick services for the last 5 working days to Wednesday:-

Timetabled through services from Reading to Gatwick Airport: 78

Of which:
Cancelled (whole or in part): 28 (36%)
10 or more minutes late: 8 (10%)
5-9 minutes late: 18 (23%)

Only 31% of services have arrived within 5 minutes of schedule. This is pathetic. Airport passengers can be forgiven for not bothering with the GWR service due to extremely poor reliability.

Source: https://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk/...&MetAvg=Mea&MetSpr=RT&MxScDu=&MxSvAg=&MnScCt=

I notice that in the reverse direction, the 17:00 from Gatwick Airport was the only one leaving after 06:00 (excluding the last train and the first trains due to incomplete data) was the only one to run every day! Everything ran on Monday, though. This data counts cut short to start at Redhill as not cancelled, it appears, though I may be wrong on that!

JonathanH said:

Presumably the complaints department will respond with a message along the lines of 'We have had to retime a number of services to fit in with available platform capacity at Redhill. This has led to some difficult decisions about calling points for trains elsewhere on the route.'

I wonder, if performance of 769s is better than Turbos, some of the stops can be reinstated. I guess the timetable remains under review.

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The recently increased platform capacity at Redhill?!

For the last two weeks, SWT has been running at least six workings along the NDL for driver training - have these needed level crossing safety reviews?!

FenMan said:

Sadly, it seems 2tph is a struggle - various rail and signalling faults have bedevilled the line for several weeks. These are the stats for through Reading - Gatwick services for the last 5 working days to Wednesday:-

Timetabled through services from Reading to Gatwick Airport: 78

Of which:
Cancelled (whole or in part): 28 (36%)
10 or more minutes late: 8 (10%)
5-9 minutes late: 18 (23%)

Only 31% of services have arrived within 5 minutes of schedule. This is pathetic. Airport passengers can be forgiven for not bothering with the GWR service due to extremely poor reliability.

Source: https://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk/Home/Search?Op=Srch&Fr=Reading+(RDG)&To=Gatwick+Airport+(GTW)&TimTyp=A&TimDay=A&Days=Wk&TimPer=7d&dtFr=20/09/2018&dtTo=27/09/2018&ShwTim=AvAr&MxArCl=11&ShwAdv=ShwAdv&TOC=All&ArrSta=5&SvcCtR=SvcCtR&SvcCtC=SvcCtC&MetAvg=Mea&MetSpr=RT&MxScDu=&MxSvAg=&MnScCt=

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The NDL has long been a very unreliable railway. I no longer have to use it for work purposes, thank goodness, but it was obviously a secondary priority for FGW/GWR when I did.

Deepgreen said:

The recently increased platform capacity at Redhill?!

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Maybe increased platform capacity but actually not used as efficiently as it was before.