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Bradford Stations Consultation / Improvements

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Bantamzen

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Bigger than Halifax, bigger than Wakefield, bigger than Huddersfield, fair enough. But is it big enough to divert NPR for?

A direct line from Manchester to Leeds, just short of forty miles, passes relatively close to the centres of Oldham/ Huddersfield/ Brighouse/ Batley.

Manchester - Shipley - Leeds is knocking on fifty miles. Shorter if you tunnel it, but then you're dealing with Bradford's topography, which isn't ideal for trains (much like that of Sheffield).

Really, there's a question about what NPR/ HS3 is intended for. Is it about fast services between the two main conurbations in the north (Manchester and Leeds) or is it about linking in as many places as possible? Do we want one simple route or a dog-leg line that tries to tick as many boxes as possible? If Bradford, why not also Oldham and Brighouse? Where do you draw the line...

Because Bradford has been identified as a large city with surrounding area that might benefit from better connectivity, which might attract a few more businesses / government departments to locate there in future to generate more jobs. Its been clear for a while that NPR (sorry I don't ever see it as being a genuine HS line) is about more than just getting between Leeds & Manchester quicker. A bit like routing HS2 via Birmingham (well almost), it can kill two aspirations with one stone.

Saying all this if you want my honest opinion I don't ever seen it happening. Getting a brand new alignment through the Pennines is going to be vastly expensive, let alone getting across Bradford. I suspect that the upgrade will end up being a wiring of the Standege / Calder Valley and some further speed improvements along both.

Maybe, since the platforms at Foster Square/ Interchange are about half a mile apart, we could just do a Crossrail and have an entrance at both to the underground platforms for NPR - the double-ended stations are all the rage in London!

Well it would be a workable solution, but a cross-city link and a third station for Bradford? This forum would go into meltdown with rage..... ;)

Leeds-Shipley has, I believe, a linespeed up to 90mph. I understand this was made possible by easing some of the track curves to make best use of the original four-track alignment. Reinstating the original four-track will therefore require a reduction in linespeed as the curves will tightened. To obtain the desired timings for NPR (actually 7 minutes for Leeds to Bradford), you would need an entirely new rail alignment and an average end-to-end speed of 120mph. The existing Leeds-Pudsey-Bradford line is also mostly four-track so doesn't need anywhere near the amount of tunnelling you believe is required. Being considerably shorter, it can also meet the desired timings at an average of 80mph, or 55mph for the 10 minute journey you suggest, which would obviously make it easier to use the existing alignment.

The easing of some curves was used its true, but that doesn't mean that any 4 tracking would mean losing these. For the most part the line has plenty of room either side for widening of the trackbed to keep curves to a minimum. And with the Pudsey line would not using the existing trackbed lead to similar problems with curves, whilst in some cases passing through more populated areas?

As for tunnelling, I am referring on how to get the line from the existing level at Laisterdyke down an even steeper ascent to an underground station in more or less the same distance.

Hang on, you want to construct a four-track tunnel alignment through the centre of Bradford and then terminate two of the tracks in the centre?! If you are going to that expense you may as well create the north-south connection for Aire-Calder services, if only to reduce the number of (underground?) platforms required at your new station.

Its one option, or simiply have 4 platforms that can be used as through and/or terminators. I can't see for a moment any proposal that effectively led to three stations in Bradford being accepted.

Sorry, I'm really confused now. You would keep Interchange, build a brand new station where the Court Centre is, and have a passenger link between them? Again, if you're going to the expense, why not have a single station?

Just a heads up, it is not my proposal to have the new station located close to The Broadway, this is the aspiration of Bradford Council. I am simply piggy-backing my ideas to theirs. Their idea would be to have the NPR approach from the south, dive under the city to a Central station then veer east and rise rapidly to Laisterdyke. Personally if it were possible a whole new station would be far preferable, and one that could link the Aire/Wharfe to the Calder & house the connections onto the NPR alignment. But even if somehow NPR came to be I can't honestly see a single station solution happening, so a new Central station taking the place of Forster Square & linking to the Interchange is the next best fit.

On this at least we agree - NPR should go through Bradford as it is by far the largest population centre between Leeds and Manchester. Huddersfield has a reasonable service to Leeds and Manchester already, shortly to be improved further by TPU.

As I said further up this comment, as much as I'd like to see it I simply cannot see the investment coming. Once the Daily Mail get hold of it & find out it doesn't serve Milton Keynes, all hell will break loose!! ;)

(This of course a joke, and not meant in anyway to be derogatory towards Milton Keynes and it's citizens.)
 
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NorthernSpirit

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If a Bradford Broadway railway station was built, I could imagine seeing the Leeds to Forster Square service being scrapped in favour of a Leeds > New Pudsey > Bradford Broadway > Ilkley / Skipton (or even back to Leeds via Kirkstall Forge - creating a Two City Circular), with the Prestons get diverted to run via Kirkstall Forge rather than via New Pudsey so that Bradford Broadway is served as a through station rather than two terminuses glued to the back of each other.

You'd still need a single platform at the Interchange and at Forster Square in the short term so that you'd manage a slow decline at two stations to encourage users to use the single new one instead.
 

Old Yard Dog

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Its rather ironic that little Loughborough will soon be getting its cross rail between two heritage railways while Bradford has been struggling for well over a century

(OK I know the Loughborough scheme will use a previous alignment but even so ...)
 

cle

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I wasn’t saying Bradford was the same size as Burnley, clearly it is larger - my point was that it is a larger version of such towns, with similar demand patterns, usage, employment and demographics, overall a large Burnley or wherever.

I definitely support wiring the Calder and I think that if money was ever found, the link could have some interesting benefits for both the city and the region.

But this 5th biggest city lark is so disingenuous, come on guys. That is like saying London has 10k, pedantry. And as we’ve said on here a lot, population does not equal demand and thus supply. There are so many more factors at play.
 

B&I

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There's a degree of chicken and egg to the way cities are treated at ths moment. The ones that are considered 'big' outside the south east (all 3 of them) are earmarked for investment because of their bigness. Hence they grow at the expense of less-favoured places. This is as true for railway investment as any other form of investment
 

mwmbwls

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Manchester Bradford NPR variations by Mwmbwls, on Flickr

I assume that you mean something like this.

This route, and most other Bradford NPR options I can think of, would enter/exit Bradford southwards through the Low Moor area. However the severe gradient of the existing route demonstrates how quickly the ground rises at the edge of the city centre. A station in a tunnel under the relatively low-lying centre of Bradford would be starting even lower than Interchange does, and might have to extend beyond Low Moor to get to the surface with a reasonable gradient. This suggests that a more practicable alignment might be for trains from Manchester to join the existing route near Low Moor then on or near to the old avoiding line, with a station on the south-east fringe of the city centre, before heading off towards Pudsey.

But this option has been already explicitly rejected by Bradford who are expecting a new route running east west across the city.
Bradford released to artists impressions based on work by architects BDP at MPIM showing a rebuilt Interchange station possibly extended on over to the old Exchange Railway Station buffer stops.

Bradford NPR BDP by Mwmbwls, on Flickr

Less well publicised was a cross section diagram

Bradford NPR BDP by Mwmbwls, on Flickr

The existing rail station is at ground level on a rough north south orientation whilst NPR runs east west. This raises the question from where in the east to where in the west? This could be a long tunnel. Now it is easy to rationalise a proposed tunnel under Manchester because this piggy backs on HS2 and there would therefore be more trains to amortize the costs of construction over. Any Bradford tunnel would be purely a NPR service with fewer trains to amortise the costs.

Joseph Lock has correctly raised the issue that nothing about NPR is set/tunnelled in stone yet and it seems reasonable to assume that whilst Bradford is keen to create a sense of momentum that the devil may well be in the detail and the cost estimates.
 

Eric

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Manchester Bradford NPR variations by Mwmbwls, on Flickr

I assume that you mean something like this.



But this option has been already explicitly rejected by Bradford who are expecting a new route running east west across the city.
Bradford released to artists impressions based on work by architects BDP at MPIM showing a rebuilt Interchange station possibly extended on over to the old Exchange Railway Station buffer stops.

Bradford NPR BDP by Mwmbwls, on Flickr

Less well publicised was a cross section diagram

Bradford NPR BDP by Mwmbwls, on Flickr

The existing rail station is at ground level on a rough north south orientation whilst NPR runs east west. This raises the question from where in the east to where in the west? This could be a long tunnel. Now it is easy to rationalise a proposed tunnel under Manchester because this piggy backs on HS2 and there would therefore be more trains to amortize the costs of construction over. Any Bradford tunnel would be purely a NPR service with fewer trains to amortise the costs.

Joseph Lock has correctly raised the issue that nothing about NPR is set/tunnelled in stone yet and it seems reasonable to assume that whilst Bradford is keen to create a sense of momentum that the devil may well be in the detail and the cost estimates.

The old Bradford Exchange avoiding line was rejected as it will bring in zero economic benefits.

The new Central Station as I've already said is to be over the road from Broadway, opposite the DWP and Yorkshire Water buildings.

Don't forget the T&A have sold their building and are relocating up Wakefield Road.

So the car park between the law courts and Victoria Hotel could be the gateway and link between the new station and the Interchange ?
 

mwmbwls

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The old Bradford Exchange avoiding line was rejected as it will bring in zero economic benefits.

The new Central Station as I've already said is to be over the road from Broadway, opposite the DWP and Yorkshire Water buildings.

Don't forget the T&A have sold their building and are relocating up Wakefield Road.

So the car park between the law courts and Victoria Hotel could be the gateway and link between the new station and the Interchange ?

I'm sorry, I am only a visitor to Bradford whilst visiting the university and am not familiar with specific buildings. Could you explain this again in terms of street names as shown on this map?

Bradford NPR City Centre Map by Mwmbwls, on Flickr
 

Noddy

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I’ve been following this thread with interest as I lived in Bradford for many years. So far I’ve resisted but this map really does illustrate why the Calder Valley route will always be a back water compared to other cross pennie routes. That reversal into the Interchange and the S-bends to the east, complete with its steep incline will always add at LEAST 5 minutes to a through journey and probably more like 10. You can see why so many people have suggested a cross city route/station.
 

Eric

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I'm sorry, I am only a visitor to Bradford whilst visiting the university and am not familiar with specific buildings. Could you explain this again in terms of street names as shown on this map?

Bradford NPR City Centre Map by Mwmbwls, on Flickr

Carry going forward from the Interchange untill you reach the A6181.

The corner entrance to Broadway through Debenhams and HMV.

The original plans were to go West-East at that point and align with the current Bradford to Leeds route before Pudsey .

That would appear to have changed now and the new station would use the Aire Valley.

Would you have the service call at a Shipley Parkway station?
 

Bantamzen

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Carry going forward from the Interchange untill you reach the A6181.

The corner entrance to Broadway through Debenhams and HMV.

The original plans were to go West-East at that point and align with the current Bradford to Leeds route before Pudsey .

That would appear to have changed now and the new station would use the Aire Valley.

Would you have the service call at a Shipley Parkway station?

A stop at Shipley, for the vast majority of NPRs no save maybe a handful of calls in the peaks. A parkway, even more emphatically no, there simply isn't road capacity to serve any more traffic and more houses are still being built in the area so a Parkway is a non-starter.
 

Eric

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A stop at Shipley, for the vast majority of NPRs no save maybe a handful of calls in the peaks. A parkway, even more emphatically no, there simply isn't road capacity to serve any more traffic and more houses are still being built in the area so a Parkway is a non-starter.

My daughter lives in Bolton Woods and the traffic on both Manningham Lane and Canal Road are horrendous.

They must be two of the most contested roads in the country?

It took me nearly an hour last week to get from the 24 hour Tesco to Shipley, a distance of just over 2 miles.
 

quantinghome

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My daughter lives in Bolton Woods and the traffic on both Manningham Lane and Canal Road are horrendous.

They must be two of the most contested roads in the country?

It took me nearly an hour last week to get from the 24 hour Tesco to Shipley, a distance of just over 2 miles.

That's an issue to be dealt with by a local transport plan. The objective of NPR is to provide a high speed route between major Northern cities, not sort out the traffic on Canal Road. You can't stop an intercity train service every few miles as it would cease to be an intercity service.
 

Bantamzen

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My daughter lives in Bolton Woods and the traffic on both Manningham Lane and Canal Road are horrendous.

They must be two of the most contested roads in the country?

It took me nearly an hour last week to get from the 24 hour Tesco to Shipley, a distance of just over 2 miles.

When I was commuting from Bradford back to Baildon I used to dread there being any delays / cancellations on the trains as it meant facing the hell on Earth that is the bus trip North towards Shipley, especially at the bizarre bottleneck between Carlisle Road & Oak Lane on Manningham Lane. These days I'm only affected if I'm in Shipley / Bradford shopping or for leisure, but it has not been unknown for me to be waiting for the 737 from Shipley up Otley Road watching the live updates show the bus as being due in 10 mins or so for at least half an hour! All I can say is thank goodness for the pub & free WiFi!!

But it does demonstrate just how bad the situation is, and how better rail connectivity even with a parallel station connection would be very welcome for at least some of Bradford's commuters.
 

Bantamzen

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Just getting back to present day improvement, more work taking place outside of Bradford Interchange this weekend:

Rail travellers are advised to plan ahead as Network Rail upgrades the railway in Bradford as part of the Great North Rail Project.

The £2.5million project will take place just outside of Bradford Interchange Station and will see the track upgraded and two new sets of switches and crossings, the specialist pieces of equipment which allow trains to move from one piece of track to another, installed.

Currently, whether a train approaches the station from Leeds or Halifax determines which platforms it is able to stop at. Once completed, this work will remove these restrictions allowing for greater flexibility for trains entering the station. Passengers will benefit from a more modern and reliable railway, as well as a reduction in trains waiting outside of the station for a platform to become available.

Due to the nature of the work, no trains will be able to serve Bradford Interchange Station on Saturday, 26 and Sunday, 27 May. Bus replacements for Grand Central services will be in operation between Bradford Interchange, Low Moor and Halifax. Passengers are advised to check before they travel via National Rail Enquiries or with Grand Central.

There is also planned industrial action affecting Northern services on Saturday, 26 May. Those travelling with Northern are advised to check with the train operator before travelling.

All passengers are urged to plan ahead and allow additional time for their journeys.

Rob McIntosh, Route Managing Director at Network Rail, said: “This investment into the railway in Bradford will reduce waiting times outside of the station, resulting in a more modern, reliable railway for passengers with fewer delays and will make sure that we can continue to provide a railway which meets the needs of the communities and economies we serve.

“There’s never an ideal time to work on the railway. We do so at weekends as this is when it causes the least disruption to train services, however we appreciate that this can still impact on passengers and we’d like to apologise in advance for any inconvenience this causes and thank passengers for their patience during this upgrade.”

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/feeds...s-network-rail-upgrades-railway-in-yorkshire/

One thing I'm slightly confused about is the bit about the direction of travel determines the platform a service can use? Surely all platforms are accessible from both approaches, or am I missing something here?
 

MarkyT

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Just getting back to present day improvement, more work taking place outside of Bradford Interchange this weekend:
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/feeds...s-network-rail-upgrades-railway-in-yorkshire/
One thing I'm slightly confused about is the bit about the direction of travel determines the platform a service can use? Surely all platforms are accessible from both approaches, or am I missing something here?

I suspect it is additional parallelism they're talking about. From either route you can definitely arrive in, and subsequently depart from any platform to either route today, but the only platform a train from Halifax can arrive in is #1 AT THE SAME TIME AS a train from Leeds can go to #2, #3 or #4. An extra crossover for example, that could allow the incoming from Halifax to alternatively arrive in #2 AT THE SAME TIME AS an incoming from Leeds enters #3 or #4 or a departure leaves #3 to Halifax might be very useful. From the photo on the NR announcement the fact that the platform #2 starting signal (M1574) is shown relocated from its former gantry to a new on a new straight post structure suggests they are making space for such a new track connection. I assume the platform #1 signal will also have to move from its current gantry position.

A diagram: http://www.townend.me/files/bradfordinterchange.pdf
 

Bantamzen

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I suspect it is additional parallelism they're talking about. From either route you can definitely arrive in, and subsequently depart from any platform to either route today, but the only platform a train from Halifax can arrive in is #1 AT THE SAME TIME AS a train from Leeds can go to #2, #3 or #4. An extra crossover for example, that could allow the incoming from Halifax to alternatively arrive in #2 AT THE SAME TIME AS an incoming from Leeds enters #3 or #4 or a departure leaves #3 to Halifax might be very useful. From the photo on the NR announcement the fact that the platform #2 starting signal (M1574) is shown relocated from its former gantry to a new on a new straight post structure suggests they are making space for such a new track connection. I assume the platform #1 signal will also have to move from its current gantry position.

A diagram: http://www.townend.me/files/bradfordinterchange.pdf

Ah, that all makes sense now. Thank you for that.
 

snowball

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Press release with video of the changes at Mill Lane Junction:

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/feeds...age-of-great-north-rail-project-in-yorkshire/

Network Rail has released time-lapse footage of a huge project to improve the railway in Bradford, which took place over the Bank Holiday Weekend.


The footage shows over 100 Network Rail workers carrying out the upgrade round the clock to make sure it was completed for trains to run as normal on Monday. In total, over 2000 hours went into the project over the weekend.

The investment removes restrictions on platforms at the station and means greater flexibility for trains entering the station. Passengers will benefit from a more modern and reliable railway, as well as a reduction in trains waiting outside of the station for a platform to become available.

Rob McIntosh, Route Managing Director at Network Rail, said: “We’d like to thank passengers for their patience whilst we carried out this major upgrade to the railway in Bradford.

“The footage highlights the hard work that goes on behind the scenes to improve the railway and we look forward to passengers reaping the benefit of this £2.5million investment, which will make sure that we can continue to provide a railway which meets the needs of the communities and economies we serve.”
 

Eric

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I've always said since Grand Central were given total control of platform two that Bradford Interchange needs an extra platform.

How does the new work answer the following paragraph please?

The investment removes restrictions on platforms at the station and means greater flexibility for trains entering the station. Passengers will benefit from a more modern and reliable railway, as well as a reduction in trains waiting outside of the station for a platform to become available.

???
 

MarkyT

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As I explained here - https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ation-improvements.157985/page-7#post-3473539 the benefit is additional parallelism, that is more moves that can be made simultaneously. I didn't know about GC using platform #2 (almost) exclusively*, but now these will be able to enter #2 from Halifax at the same time as a NT service arrives from Leeds into #3 or #4. This was not possible before, with one or the other having to wait outside the station if they arrived at the same time.

* I found one NT train today on RTT that was booked to use #2: 1S99 1725 Leeds to Hebden Bridge.
 

lejog

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Just getting back to present day improvement, more work taking place outside of Bradford Interchange this weekend:



https://www.networkrail.co.uk/feeds...s-network-rail-upgrades-railway-in-yorkshire/

One thing I'm slightly confused about is the bit about the direction of travel determines the platform a service can use? Surely all platforms are accessible from both approaches, or am I missing something here?
The enhancements delivery plan states that the work will allow parallel departures from the station. As MarkyT's post shows a limited range of parallel arrivals were enabled by the last upgrade 10years back. If anyone can work out the new layout, it would be interesting to find out which parallel moves have been enabled.

The activity is part of a Calder Valley Capacity project which also depends on Halifax-Bradford resignalling (due to complete this year) and Leeds station capacity upgrades (sigh due Dec 2022). I suspect the WYCA plans for Halifax also are part of the overall scheme.
 

MarkyT

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The enhancements delivery plan states that the work will allow parallel departures from the station. As MarkyT's post shows a limited range of parallel arrivals were enabled by the last upgrade 10years back. If anyone can work out the new layout, it would be interesting to find out which parallel moves have been enabled.

The activity is part of a Calder Valley Capacity project which also depends on Halifax-Bradford resignalling (due to complete this year) and Leeds station capacity upgrades (sigh due Dec 2022). I suspect the WYCA plans for Halifax also are part of the overall scheme.

On my diagram I showed one additional crossover that agrees with the work shown in the timelapse video. The parallel departures would not be provided by that however, although certain additional simultaneous arrivals would be enabled. There is a mystery in the sectional appendix however which shows an additional left hand crossover out on the Halifax line, at 'Bowling Junction' (just over a half mile out from Mill Lane Jn SB). This is not shown on any other signalling diagrams I have found online, so I wonder if it has been another fairly recent addition that has been laid in ready to be brought into regular signalled use later, along with the work just completed. That WOULD provide additional departure routes from #1 and #2 to the Halifax line via the W Line which would thus become bidirectional and would be clear of parallel departures from higher number platforms towards Leeds. In one of the items linked above the NR spokesperson suggested there were 'two sets' of new S&C to be brought into use. That could refer to two turnouts or perhaps two complete crossovers.

Here is the relevant Sectional Appendix page:
BradfordSA.jpg

I've updated my diagram to suit what I now think is going on: http://www.townend.me/files/bradfordinterchange.pdf

The new signalled routes probably won't come into use until the later resignalling activity, when I assume Mill Lane Junction SB will finally close.
 

edwin_m

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On that diagram the lines between Bradford and Bowling Junction appear to be uni-directional so even if useable it isn't any use for anything other than turning back a train. This would allow terminating short at Low Moor if there was a closure at Interchange, but I can't really see that justifying a crossover.
 

MarkyT

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On that diagram the lines between Bradford and Bowling Junction appear to be uni-directional so even if useable it isn't any use for anything other than turning back a train. This would allow terminating short at Low Moor if there was a closure at Interchange, but I can't really see that justifying a crossover.

I agree both Halifax lines are unidirectional at the moment. But the crossover may have been provided in advance of the future resignalling which could bring into use new reverse direction moves that can make use of it properly. I suspect none of the new routes will be available for normal working until the resignalling takes place as it's not worth altering the old interlocking for such a short period of time, so all this is probably preparatory stagework for that scheme. Note the Bowling Jn crossover is also not evident on any aerial imaging I have found online either so I deduce it is a fairly recent feature.
 

Grumpy

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As I explained here - https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ation-improvements.157985/page-7#post-3473539 the benefit is additional parallelism, that is more moves that can be made simultaneously. I didn't know about GC using platform #2 (almost) exclusively*, but now these will be able to enter #2 from Halifax at the same time as a NT service arrives from Leeds into #3 or #4. This was not possible before, with one or the other having to wait outside the station if they arrived at the same time.

* I found one NT train today on RTT that was booked to use #2: 1S99 1725 Leeds to Hebden Bridge.
Isn't that worked by a GC 180?
 

Eric

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At tonight's council meeting which is open to members of the public, I asked when a decision is to made regarding the route of the new line and location of the new station to be told next month.

Not long to wait then to see if the government are finally going to put Bradford on the transport map.
 

Eric

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Work is well underway at Bradford Interchange to extend platforms three and four.

Currently, they can only accommodate four carriages, so they are being extended to accommodate seven carriages.

Could give Grand Central another option.
 

Eric

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The new platform extensions are starting to take shape.

Does anyone know where these new five and seven car trains will operate to and from?

You kind of feel that Bradford is receiving some much-needed rail improvements. Exciting times.
414AD638-3D71-4431-AE37-39C3AE8C7927.jpeg D83B9D4E-BDF2-4224-9101-AD344DAF8A19.jpeg
 
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