South Wales 'Metro' updates

gareth950 · 9 May 2018

So if the 'Core Valley lines' transfer still has not been agreed upon (and we have no indication it has been, although that's not unusual from this process) we will be in a situation in 2 weeks where the winning / preferred franchise bidder will be announced yet the plans for the valley lines will still be unclear.

As I've said before, the winning bidder still then has to undertake a survey of the valley lines over the summer to see if their plans are feasible. Although you'd think that NR would be able to give them the info on the state of the VL infrastructure that they need? After all, NR have just completed the biggest modernisation of the VL in 50 years.
I've got a feeling it could still be months yet before the future of the valley lines becomes clear.

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Mollman · 9 May 2018

As probably previously mentioned there is the option of converting the 144s from Northern plus ATWs existing 143s (and any exGWR units they need) to e-pacer:
http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...k-unveils-refurbed-class-144e-evolution-pacer

This would give a legal train with a toilet available to cover until whatever new vehicles arrive for the Metro routess

Chester1 · 9 May 2018

Mollman said:
As probably previously mentioned there is the option of converting the 144s from Northern plus ATWs existing 143s (and any exGWR units they need) to e-pacer:
http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...k-unveils-refurbed-class-144e-evolution-pacer

This would give a legal train with a toilet available to cover until whatever new vehicles arrive for the Metro routess

The cost of the upgrade was high and not worth doing for an extra 2-3 years. The toilet replacement was the largest cost which is why we are having this discussion.

The Northern 142s are in poor shape and I think Angel Trains won't change their mind about sending them to the scrap heap over the next 18 months. I don't know about the 15 with ATW. There are more than enough 143s and 144s to meet the W&B franchise needs.

ATW158Xpress · 22 May 2018

The announcement is due tomorrow morning for who’s the winner to build and run the metro. And no surprise they won’t be releasing info about new stock whether it be world class trams or bi mode heavy rail trains that lot of commuters want until next month at the earliest!

aylesbury · 22 May 2018

Seems as though the welsh government have yet to decide what just will happen, all in all an extremely poor franchise exercise.

Envoy · 22 May 2018

I have just come across this - about the possibility of electric buses - which seems to be an excellent idea. So, we could get rid of the polluting diesel buses without going to the expense of digging up the streets for trams! (The buses also are more flexible in terms of changing routes when events take place).

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/huge-electrical-charger-appeared-busy-14669748

A huge electrical charging point for buses has appeared on a Cardiff road.
The device - which is capable of charging a bus in as little as three minutes - appeared on King Edward VII Avenue outside Cardiff University’s Bute Building.

GreatAuk · 22 May 2018

Envoy said:
I have just come across this - about the possibility of electric buses - which seems to be an excellent idea. So, we could get rid of the polluting diesel buses without going to the expense of digging up the streets for trams! (The buses also are more flexible in terms of changing routes when events take place).

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/huge-electrical-charger-appeared-busy-14669748

That looks really interesting! Haven't seen that before - is there any more information about the system anywhere? Am guessing they must use supercapacitors rather than batteries if it only needs 3 minutes to charge, or will people just have to get used to slower bus journeys waiting for 3 minutes every few stops to charge up a bit I wonder...

Also, it really is a bit of a beast that thing even if it does look quite futuristic. There won't be room for those in a lot of places I imagine... Puts series 1 OLE in its place!

Aha found this on the Abb website http://www.abb.com/cawp/seitp202/1ff6b33d983c959fc12580c600562b65.aspx. Seems that they are actually hybrid buses but they do use batteries. Apparently they are at the end points of bus routrs in Namur and Charleroi at least,and have reduced carbon emissions by 60%.

gareth950 · 22 May 2018

Yes, that electric bus charger is a very interesting contraption. I saw a bus charging with it about 2 weeks ago 'on test'. It is massive though.

Would be a great idea for Cardiff, much more preferable to digging up the streets needlessly for trams.
Electric buses that run in dedicated bus lanes, segregated from traffic, meeting Valley lines trains at key locations on the network would be a hugely better idea than trams.

Bletchleyite · 23 May 2018

Envoy said:
I have just come across this - about the possibility of electric buses - which seems to be an excellent idea. So, we could get rid of the polluting diesel buses without going to the expense of digging up the streets for trams! (The buses also are more flexible in terms of changing routes when events take place).

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/huge-electrical-charger-appeared-busy-14669748

There's been a trial running in MK for a few years now on one of the local routes (which happens to be my local route) using inductive charging. It seems to be going fairly well, though they did find they were one bus short so there is usually a diesel one on the route too. The Red Arrows in London are also now electric.

I wouldn't say it could replace trams, really, as trams offer other quality and capacity benefits. It's more about getting rid of the image of filthy diesel buses.

Bletchleyite · 23 May 2018

GreatAuk said:
That looks really interesting! Haven't seen that before - is there any more information about the system anywhere? Am guessing they must use supercapacitors rather than batteries if it only needs 3 minutes to charge, or will people just have to get used to slower bus journeys waiting for 3 minutes every few stops to charge up a bit I wonder...

The MK one charges for I think about 10 minutes at each end during layovers. The idea is that it starts off full at the start of the day, and these top-ups are enough to keep it going so it arrives back at the depot near empty. The batteries are lithium of some kind, same I think as the electric D-train.

I believe the ABB "pantograph" system, which is rather ugly compared with the inductive system trialling in MK, is also used in Hamburg.

squizzler · 23 May 2018

gareth950 said:
Yes, that electric bus charger is a very interesting contraption. I saw a bus charging with it about 2 weeks ago 'on test'. It is massive though.

I wonder if the prospect of thousands of volts hanging over the street has the additional benefit of deterring motorists who consider bus stops as lay-bys for answering the phone from indulging in such behaviour?

CdBrux · 23 May 2018

KeolisAmey have won the contract although details will not be shared for a month:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-44221184

A £5bn contract to run Wales' rail service for the next 15 years has been awarded to two European firms, who will run it jointly.

France's Keolis and Spanish-owned Amey's bid triumphed over a rival offer from Hong Kong's MTR commuter railways.

It will also drive forward the south Wales Metro in Cardiff and the valleys.

The operators said while the changes would not happen overnight Wales' railway "would be unrecognisable" in five years time.

KeolisAmey already runs Greater Manchester Metrolink and London's Docklands Light Railway, among others.

But full details of KeolisAmey's plans for Wales will not be revealed until next month.

This is to allow for the potential challenge to the process by the other bidder

Gareth Marston · 29 May 2018

Ian Walmsleys column in Junes Modern Railways is saying that Light Rail should reduce Penarth to Rhymney journey time by 19 minutes - one suspects news of "core valleys lines" has not filtered through to Derby yet....

MarkyT · 29 May 2018

Gareth Marston said:
Ian Walmsleys column in Junes Modern Railways is saying that Light Rail should reduce Penarth to Rhymney journey time by 19 minutes - one suspects news of "core valleys lines" has not filtered through to Derby yet....

Or he has made an educated and perhaps informed guess that through services to the core will survive from Penarth and Barry by some means, whether that will be by extension of DC electrification, dual voltage tram-trains with some additional 25kV on the VOG, or battery power. The rolling stock selected will have to be compatible for inter-running with surviving freights in the valleys anyway so it seems absurd not to also allow them to also run onto mixed traffic NR infrastructure. Remembers the bidders were also supposed to be ADVISING the WG through this 'world class' process as well. Anyway we will all know soon enough.

Gareth Marston · 29 May 2018

MarkyT said:
Or he has made an educated and perhaps informed guess that through services to the core will survive from Penarth and Barry by some means, whether that will be by extension of DC electrification, dual voltage tram-trains with some additional 25kV on the VOG, or battery power. The rolling stock selected will have to be compatible for inter-running with surviving freights in the valleys anyway so it seems absurd not to also allow them to also run onto mixed traffic NR infrastructure. Remembers the bidders were also supposed to be ADVISING the WG through this 'world class' process as well. Anyway we will all know soon enough.

All well and good in theory but what do you then do with 36 prm compliant class 150's which WG have committed to fund? FAr too many for potential realistic diagrams left?

Bletchleyite · 29 May 2018

Gareth Marston said:
All well and good in theory but what do you then do with 36 prm compliant class 150's which WG have committed to fund? FAr too many for potential realistic diagrams left?

Flog 'em to Northern? There is no shortage of demand for PRM compliant DMUs.

Gareth Marston · 29 May 2018

Round and round the mulberry bush same old issues about linking Ebbw Vale to Newport..

http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/ne...K__Argus_re-launches_Ebbw_Vale_link_campaign/

Relaunching the campaign the Metro haves and have nots?

Mr Griffiths also quizzed first minister Carwyn Jones about the link in the Assembly earlier this week, saying there is "a great deal of frustration" over the issue.

Mr Jones replied: "We want to see trains going into Newport, but it's a matter for Network Rail, an organisation that we can't even direct. That's part of the problem we have with the current settlement. The Scots can do it—we can't. "That said, we want to work to make sure that the service is introduced in the near future and to work with Network Rail to identify the technical solutions needed in order for that to happen."

Carwyn is talking through is rear end there is plenty of precedent of Welsh Government funding infrastructure projects on the railways in Wales and England!

There's no magic rule that says the WG cant pay NR to do stuff as the Vale of Glamorgan and Ebbw Vale, Fishguard & Goodwick station reopenings, Cambrian capacity enhancements, Wrexham and Gowerton redoublings etc all demonstrate.

The Carwynite agenda of "give us more powers" is at play here, hes happy to demonstrate that the "core valley lines" under Welsh Government control gets investment but "non core lines" not under WG control don't. There playing party politics with transport investment rather than acting in he interests of the whole nation.

gareth950 · 30 May 2018

Gareth Marston said:
Round and round the mulberry bush same old issues about linking Ebbw Vale to Newport..

http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/ne...K__Argus_re-launches_Ebbw_Vale_link_campaign/

Relaunching the campaign the Metro haves and have nots?

Carwyn is talking through is rear end there is plenty of precedent of Welsh Government funding infrastructure projects on the railways in Wales and England!

There's no magic rule that says the WG cant pay NR to do stuff as the Vale of Glamorgan and Ebbw Vale, Fishguard & Goodwick station reopenings, Cambrian capacity enhancements, Wrexham and Gowerton redoublings etc all demonstrate.

The Carwynite agenda of "give us more powers" is at play here, hes happy to demonstrate that the "core valley lines" under Welsh Government control gets investment but "non core lines" not under WG control don't. There playing party politics with transport investment rather than acting in he interests of the whole nation.

Agreed. Carwyn also conveniently left out the fact that his government initially gave NR the money to start re-doubling sections of Ebbw Vale, work was started by NR but then abandoned on his government's orders, with newly installed track left lying in situ, so 'arms length' :lol:

TfW could find a 'technical solution' to complete the work instead.

Meanwhile hundreds of millions being spent on massively over-budget road works on the heads of the valleys road continues. He's happy to fund some projects but not others to score political points.

Dai Corner · 30 May 2018

gareth950 said:
Agreed. Carwyn also conveniently left out the fact that his government initially gave NR the money to start re-doubling sections of Ebbw Vale, work was started by NR but then abandoned on his government's orders, with newly installed track left lying in situ, so 'arms length' TfW could find a 'technical solution' to complete the work instead.

Meanwhile hundreds of millions being spent on massively over-budget road works on the heads of the valleys road continues. He's happy to fund some projects but not others to score political points.

Massively over-specified roadworks too. I drive the road now and again to admire the very impressive civil engineering and dropped in to the Visitor Centre recently. I got the impression that the project was as much to do with being a showpiece and building the CVs of those involved as providing a solution to a defined problem.

Gareth Marston · 30 May 2018

The Welsh Government could have already transformed the entire Cardiff local rail network into a world class electrified suburban railway with a fraction of what has been chucked at the A465.

Tumbleweed · 30 May 2018

Exactly. If this Metro is to become a success the mindset of the powers that be has to change. They are still chasing votes on road schemes that look amazing but soon become nightmares, Church Village a case in point,

Gareth Marston · 30 May 2018

Tumbleweed said:
Exactly. If this Metro is to become a success the mindset of the powers that be has to change. They are still chasing votes on road schemes that look amazing but soon become nightmares, Church Village a case in point,

The Carwyn administrations have gone backwards in terms of trying to fund road schemes including the bottomless pit in the heads of the valleys. The hopefully soon to be shelved duplicate section of M4 around Newport being a case in point. Wales does not have enough £ to build every Tom, Dick and Harrys hoped for bypass, link road, dual carriageway, duplicate Motorway, new straights crossing. It does have enough £ to modernize its rail system if the correct choices are made.

All we've got from Carwyn is the continued underinvestment in rail and handful of road schemes that then fill up with traffic causing new problems like the Church Village bypass. There's plenty of big talk from Welsh Labour but on the ground we all know its about image not solving problems and planing for the nations future.

gareth950 · 30 May 2018

Unless there's a radical change in the leadership when Carwyn steps down in the autumn, the only way priorities for public transport will change in Wales (specifically on rail) and the pathetic slagging off of Network Rail will stop, will need a change in government in Wales.
As much as I'd like Plaid to be given a go, I fail to see how they can make the big breakthrough they need. The Welsh Tories are pathetic and don't stand a chance, and a Plaid-Tory coalition is about as likely as a Labour-Tory one.
By the time of the 2021 Assembly elections Labour will have been in power in Wales continuosly for 22 years and will be asking for another 5 to take them to 27.

Gareth Marston · 30 May 2018

gareth950 said:
Unless there's a radical change in the leadership when Carwyn steps down in the autumn, the only way priorities for public transport will change in Wales (specifically on rail) and the pathetic slagging off of Network Rail will stop, will need a change in government in Wales.
As much as I'd like Plaid to be given a go, I fail to see how they can make the big breakthrough they need. The Welsh Tories are pathetic and don't stand a chance, and a Plaid-Tory coalition is about as likely as a Labour-Tory one.
By the time of the 2021 Assembly elections Labour will have been in power in Wales continuosly for 22 years and will be asking for another 5 to take them to 27.

The coalition they had with Plaid from 08 to 11 at least tried to rebalance transport priority thinking to a degree but Welsh Labour soon ditched any pretense as soon as it went alone.

I think Wales's railway's have suffered from Party Political priorities given the choices of what has been spent in the past and the creation of "core valley lines" if the South Wales Metro turns out to be goodies for the area WG control's but thin gruel elsewhere i can see some internal Labour problems arising. As Ive said before "Core Valley Lines" is in fact North Cardiff, RCT, Merthyr and The Upper Rhymney valley part of Caerphilly only. The Sirhowy and Lower Rhymney part of Caerphilly, Blaenau Gwent, Newport, Torfaen, Monmouthshire, South Cardiff, Vale of Glamorgan, Bridgend, Neath Port Talbot and Swansea is a big area to fob with a self congratulatory press release.

Del1977 · 1 Jun 2018

Gareth Marston said:
The coalition they had with Plaid from 08 to 11 at least tried to rebalance transport priority thinking to a degree but Welsh Labour soon ditched any pretense as soon as it went alone.

I think Wales's railway's have suffered from Party Political priorities given the choices of what has been spent in the past and the creation of "core valley lines" if the South Wales Metro turns out to be goodies for the area WG control's but thin gruel elsewhere i can see some internal Labour problems arising. As Ive said before "Core Valley Lines" is in fact North Cardiff, RCT, Merthyr and The Upper Rhymney valley part of Caerphilly only. The Sirhowy and Lower Rhymney part of Caerphilly, Blaenau Gwent, Newport, Torfaen, Monmouthshire, South Cardiff, Vale of Glamorgan, Bridgend, Neath Port Talbot and Swansea is a big area to fob with a self congratulatory press release.

Apart from Bedwas & Machen, the entire Rhymney Valley proper is served by the Rhymney Valley line. The line follows the river, after Caerphilly tunnel and town, running along the valley ridge all the way after Llanbradach. The Sirhowy valley and those other parts of the former Gwent / Monmouthshire never really 'belonged' in the rather strangely formed Caerphilly County Borough.

Where is South Cardiff? Cathays? Cardiff Bay? Grangetown? Ninian Park? I'd agree North Cardiff is better served by the current lines given long gaps between say CDQ and HHL, and Cathays and Llandaff, to say there are no stations in South Cardiff isn't fair. If anything, "South Cardiff" is actually the city centre. It's East Cardiff that is poorly served, along with West Cardiff.

Let's see what the plan is for the Ebbw Vale line, the Marches line as far as Abergavenny and the line to Penarth/Barry Island before concluding that there are no improvements in the offing elsewhere.

Gareth Marston · 1 Jun 2018

Del1977 said:
Let's see what the plan is for the Ebbw Vale line, the Marches line as far as Abergavenny and the line to Penarth/Barry Island before concluding that there are no improvements in the offing elsewhere.

Transport for Wales have already put them in the public domain. Look at the appendix theirs prioritized stuff and "less likely" stuff and low and behold anything off "Core Valley Lines" is in the later category...

http://tfw.gov.wales/sites/default/files/documents/Equality Impact Assessment_2.pdf

Marches Package less likely options
●
Scheme 86: Enhanced frequency diesel Cardifff to
Abergavenny
●
HR stations Caerleon, Seastopol and Mamhilad.
Park and Ride Abergavenny

gareth950 · 1 Jun 2018

There won't be any improvements anywhere until Welsh Govt start working with Network Rail rather than against them with pathetic finger pointing and blame games.

Del1977 · 1 Jun 2018

Gareth Marston said:
Transport for Wales have already put them in the public domain. Look at the appendix theirs prioritized stuff and "less likely" stuff and low and behold anything off "Core Valley Lines" is in the later category...

http://tfw.gov.wales/sites/default/files/documents/Equality Impact Assessment_2.pdf

Yes, I've already read that. But the final plan may be different. Not long to wait now, and then I'll be happy to join the dissenters if there's a lack of improvements elsewhere.

gareth950 · 1 Jun 2018

Expect the political mudslinging to be ramped up several gears next week, as reports today suggest the UK Tories will be putting the final nail in the coffin of the Swansea Bay Tidal Lagoon project.

How does this decision relate to the railways? Well Carwyn will be in full flow and no doubt DfT and Network Rail will be in the firing line when it's realised that there will be no 'improvements' outside of the 'Core Valley lines'. I can write the script for next Tuesday's FMQs now.

I'm not taking any political side in this. I'm just sick of the political mudslinging and blame game that characterise modern devolved Welsh politics, instead of working in the best interests of voters and in the case of the railways, the most important people, the passengers, with the powers they have. Because that's what we've seen from the start of this award process. "Westminster won't give us enough money for this, Westminster won't allow us control over NR, Westminster won't allow us to do this, it's all their fault" etc.

Gareth Marston · 1 Jun 2018

gareth950 said:
Expect the political mudslinging to be ramped up several gears next week, as reports today suggest the UK Tories will be putting the final nail in the coffin of the Swansea Bay Tidal Lagoon project.

How does this decision relate to the railways? Well Carwyn will be in full flow and no doubt DfT and Network Rail will be in the firing line when it's realised that there will be no 'improvements' outside of the 'Core Valley lines'. I can write the script for next Tuesday's FMQs now.

I'm not taking any political side in this. I'm just sick of the political mudslinging and blame game that characterise modern devolved Welsh politics, instead of working in the best interests of voters and in the case of the railways, the most important people, the passengers. Because that's what we've seen from the start of this award process. "Westminster won't give us enough money for this, Westminster won't allow us control over NR, Westminster won't allow us to do this, it's all their fault" etc.

As one of ex Colleagues said there's times you think there more excited and energized by playing party politics rather than the actualities of running the country and making decisions. There was a twinkle in Carwyns eye when Gordon Brown lost in 2010........

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