Simulators for Route Learning

Daz28 · 3 Jun 2018

The airline industry has full flight simulators for learning both the controls of a particular aircraft and how to land and take off from various airports. Formula One racing drivers also have access to a simulator to practice each track.

Have the rail industry invested in such learning aids, and if not, why not? Particularly relevant given the current timetable change chaos where route learning has been such a challenge.

I’m not just talking about watching some videos of track alignment, but if they had a specially kitted out train with multiple front and side facing cameras, it would be fairly easy to record every combination of diagram and diversionary route, for use in a simulator lab.

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The Planner · 3 Jun 2018

Some of it can be done by DVD for resignalling etc... companies such as Track Access compile them.

ungreat · 3 Jun 2018

We have two at Hornsey.. one is a mock up of a 365 cab but the route is (well was when I used it a few years ago) fictitious
The 700 simulator is very good. The routes are GN and TL but...theres no sensation of motion. As a training aid they are useful but it would be difficult to learn a route from such sumulators

daikilo · 3 Jun 2018

There are many route learning videos on Youtube including some dating back at least 15 years. Indeed, if the Northern issue was just learning the revised infrastructure between Preston and Blackpool North then some computer-based work plus a couple of real runs could be enough, and may be in the future. The issue is that, in general, accurate computer files can only be made at reasonable cost once the infrastructure is in place.

GB · 3 Jun 2018

GBRF are to invest in two new rail simulators to accompany their driver training and development programs. Will use the cabs of 66734 that went off the cliff in Scotland a few years ago.

6Gman · 3 Jun 2018

I have actually used a "company-issue" simulator (Class 323). Useful for the basics of the unit I imagine but I'd not regard it as ideal for routelearning - no "feel" for what's happening around you.

sw1ller · 3 Jun 2018

Simulators are only useful for generating scenarios you rarely face (emergencies, pilotman working) and helping trainee drivers get to grips with train handling. After you’ve been driving for some time, the simulators feel awful and make many a bit sick. the poor adhesion scenario on ours is absolutely nothing like the real thing and prepares you for it in no way at all. Braking points change in the real world with good-poor brakes, good-poor traction (actual engine power output can be quite different, even for the same class train). Weather needs to be taken into consideration ( yes you can change the settings but it’s nothing like the real world) visibility, time of day (schools) time of year (foliage and sightings).

There’s simply too many variables to make a simulator a useful tool for route learning.

IMHO

142094 · 3 Jun 2018

DB Cargo have one at Didcot TMD, although I haven't used it. One thing to note, a large part of route knowledge especially for freight trains is knowing where the gradients are on you route. I doubt a simulator can make this realistic.

DanTrain · 3 Jun 2018

EMT have a full HST cab somewhere (Derby?) with accurate sounds and route simulation I believe.

edwin_m · 3 Jun 2018

I've seen a tram simulator that can run a route from the Buiding Information Modelling (BIM-basically 3D computer-aided design) before the infrastructure is built. BIM is now standard for all new projects, and could perhaps be merged with something video-based for tasks that involve part new and part existing routes. Unlike aircraft, trains follow a fixed track so the processing needed to generate the "flight path" can be done once only.

On a tangent I remember going on a school visit to an RAF station back in the early 80s, where they had a huge room with a terrain model for the flight simulator. A camera moved over it on a gantry replicating the actions of the aircraft.

dilbertphil · 3 Jun 2018

TPE have a very good 185 simulator at Ardwick.

gazthomas · 3 Jun 2018

I think there is a Pendolino simulator in Crewe

Bromley boy · 3 Jun 2018

Daz28 said:
The airline industry has full flight simulators for learning both the controls of a particular aircraft and how to land and take off from various airports. Formula One racing drivers also have access to a simulator to practice each track.

I have it on good authority (from a current airline pilot with 6.5k+ hours logged on Boeings, who has done multiple simulator line checks) that full motion simulators are still no substitute for time in the “real” aircraft.

From my experience of train driving simulators, they also fail to replicate the “real”, seat of the pants, experience. And certainly fail to represent the routes driven.

As a fellow bloke who drives objects from A-B for a living (albeit paid rather better than I am as a train driver, or my mate is as an airline pilot) I somehow doubt Lewis Hamilton learns tracks solely from a simulator, either.

Domh245 · 3 Jun 2018

Bromley boy said:
As a fellow bloke who drives objects from A-B for a living (albeit paid rather better than I am as a train driver, or my mate is as an airline pilot) I somehow doubt Lewis Hamilton learns tracks solely from a simulator, either.

It is worth noting that the big F1 teams tend to go with full motion simulators and laser scanned tracks with highly customised software*, so you can get a very good feel for a circuit beforehand - it's only really things like small bumps in the surface, and which curbs are likely to damage the tyres that won't be 100% true to life, but then again F1 is F1, and it's very easy to spend $millions when searching for tenths of seconds.

*It is not uncommon to hear stories about there being simulator drivers (who aren't slouches behind the wheels of actual racecars themselves) grinding away on the simulator back at base trying different car setups to find the quickest one.

sw1ller · 4 Jun 2018

F1 - you only have to look at Monaco to understand the difference between a simulation and real life.

Get to Beau Rivage on a sim and it’s a nice flat piece of track, no deviation needed.

In real life, at the centre is a ramp so busses can turn out of a side road without too much canter. F1 cars, along with most other classes all take a sharp right on a seemingly straight bit of road.

Sims are awful. It’s that simple.

Mintona · 4 Jun 2018

The simulators do have their place but certainly not for routelearning. I’ve recently been learning a new type of train and spent a lot of time in the simulator over the last month, and it makes me feel queasy every single time.

whhistle · 4 Jun 2018

Cross Country have two simulators.
They're registered as part of the 220/221 fleet so wherever the fleet goes, the sims follow.

While useful for training, and I believe they get good results with all drivers going through them once a year, the graphics are limited. However a big update this year means more realistic effects.

Drivers from other classes, such as 168/170s can use the sim too as it's the same basic layout (IE, combined power/brake controller).

dk1 · 4 Jun 2018

NXEA spent several £million on three at the Stratford accadamy. They where full size cabs of classes 315/170/379. They are now being removed. A brand new 745/755 Stadler simulator is being built at Norwich. Not sure what's going on with the Bombardier 720s.

Crossover · 4 Jun 2018

dilbertphil said:
TPE have a very good 185 simulator at Ardwick.

Indeed they do - I have sat in the drivers seat in that, although didn't get a chance to try drive in it. As far as I could tell, it didn't simulate movement and is more there for modelling the more unusual and destructive things that a driver needs to take care of. From what I can recall, the graphics quality also wasn't all that great

Undiscovered · 5 Jun 2018

Domh245 said:
It is worth noting that the big F1 teams tend to go with full motion simulators and laser scanned tracks with highly customised software*, so you can get a very good feel for a circuit beforehand - it's only really things like small bumps in the surface, and which curbs are likely to damage the tyres that won't be 100% true to life, but then again F1 is F1, and it's very easy to spend $millions when searching for tenths of seconds.

*It is not uncommon to hear stories about there being simulator drivers (who aren't slouches behind the wheels of actual racecars themselves) grinding away on the simulator back at base trying different car setups to find the quickest one.

Off thread but I remember Raikkonen got in a simulator when he first joined McLaren, from Sauber, and was messing about a bit.
Took a corner too fast, dinged the car. Apparently the force feedback from the steering nearly broke his arm.

satisnek · 9 Jun 2018

BR developed a computer-controlled driving simulator back in the late 1960s. This pre-dates 'computer graphics' as we know them, of course, so it presumably used a film taken from the cab which the computer ran at varying speeds as appropriate. Indeed, the TVP 'Vintage Cab Ride' two-volume VHS/DVD (St. Pancras - Sheffield, 1971) features footage intended for a driving simulator. How the simulator superimposed signal aspects onto this I really don't know. Anybody have further information?

Simulators for Route Learning

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