Northern's Problems in the North West

TBirdFrank · 3 Jun 2018

But are they bringing someone from DfT, TfGM, GMCA, NR and TPE with them. These are the players and they all need to be answerable.

RailUK Forums

Bertie the bus · 3 Jun 2018

Northern are the TOC and it is Northern who are cancelling hundreds of trains per day. It is also Northern who have created temporary timetables for Blackpool and then only run about 50% of the reduced service.They need to man up and face the media.

GordonT · 3 Jun 2018

Bertie the bus said:
Northern are the TOC and it is Northern who are cancelling hundreds of trains per day. It is also Northern who have created temporary timetables for Blackpool and then only run about 50% of the reduced service.They need to man up and face the media.

Well put.

bb21 · 3 Jun 2018

jayah said:
Even barristers don't charge for work not carried out. 28hr week on a 35hr contract is ridiculous.

Come again?

There is no 28hr week on 35hr wages. Nowhere in the industry will you find that.

I take it you believe that the odd training sessions should not be paid for and funded out of staff's own wages going by your posts, or do you believe that drivers should not have any professional development whatsoever? (Rhetorical questions btw and I do not expect an answer, just food for thought.)

We've been through drivers' pay and conditions plenty of times on this forum. Have a search if you want to revisit all the same arguments but for now, please try and keep to the topic on this thread.

Tomnick · 3 Jun 2018

This business about a 7hr day/28hr week for training. A five day week of 7hr days equals 35hrs. Is this a coincidence? There’s certainly an agreement at our place (not Northern) that training, some at least, takes place on the basis of a five day week, so 7hr days. Is this what’s happening at Northern - or, at least, is this what was intended at Northern?

td97 · 3 Jun 2018

STANDISH said:
According to Look North West this evening somebody from Northern is coming on the programme tomorrow at 18.30pm to be interviewed. We await to see if this happens.

Do you mean BBC Look North (Cumbria/NE regional news) or BBC North West Tonight (NW)

47802 · 3 Jun 2018

Anybody like to predict the number of cancellations tomorrow even with the temporary Timetable :rolleyes:

Domh245 · 3 Jun 2018

Bertie the bus said:
Northern are the TOC and it is Northern who are cancelling hundreds of trains per day. It is also Northern who have created temporary timetables for Blackpool and then only run about 50% of the reduced service.They need to man up and face the media.

Quoting a few posts by Tony Miles here:

I've just found out that a very short time before the May 20 timetable change NR timetablers told Northern to completely withdraw its timetable and to re-apply, with changes. The withdrawn one was the one driver training and rosters were based on, hence the new and very late one not matching what drivers were trained to do etc. However - what is worse is that the timetable people didn't tell Carne what they had done - so the first he knew about the chaos his business had created was when it started to happen and he asked some questions.

I was told at Blackpool last Monday that during the long route closure Northern asked NR if it could have access to the platform canopies to carry put repairs and repaint them before the OLE went live. NR said "This wasn't in the project plan so - NO!" - asked further NR said there would be no chance for any access anyway as there would be work going on at the station at all times. Actually there were whole weeks where nothing happened at the station and work could have been done. NR now says that as the OLE is live the work will need a total possession (cancellation of trains and a blockade) to be carried out and so when would Northern like to close the station for the work to be done. Anyway - rant over - on this one I think Grayling has said what needed to be said and NR can understand that he won't protect them in all instances any more.

Looking ahead - if the Bolton line is to be electrified and EMUs running from the December timetable then to complete adequate training on traction and the routes trains will serve the line needs to be completed and live at some point in October. NR, however will still claim the work was done "on time" if it goes live the day before services are due to begin. This is the level of knowledge and competence at NR... It goes right back to the first phase of the NW electrification - through Eccles to Newton Le Willows. The line went live the night before electric services had been due to begin - and Network Rail proclaimed it had been completed "on time"... In that case late delivery of all the 350/4 sets from Siemens had delayed the start of electric services anyway but one of the delivered sets was able to do a test run over the line the night before services should have started to prove that the job had been done. Whilst NR was all "aren't we wonderful?" for getting the line live before electric services had been due to start if you asked them how driver training would have been done had the trains been delivered they went into "what do you mean?" mode... Thus the challenge for December 2018 is to have the line through Bolton live in time for training to be done - and nobody on the ground thinks this will happen... NR may just get it live the week before the December timetable change (many doubt even this) but a full timetable would then be delayed by many weeks whilst training was completed (and of course at that point many more DMUs are due to leave the route for other services...). Prepare for a repeat of this current situation - and again NR will initially say "nothing to do with us".

Northern certainly aren't blameless, and are the only ones that the fare paying public has any sort of contact with, but they certainly aren't 100% to blame and are entitled to point out the shortcomings of the infrastructure provider (without whom they can't really do much after all)

Bungle965 · 3 Jun 2018

STANDISH said:
According to Look North West this evening somebody from Northern is coming on the programme tomorrow at 18.30pm to be interviewed. We await to see if this happens.

Look North West?

td97 said:
Do you mean BBC Look North (Cumbria/NE regional news) or BBC North West Tonight (NW)

I believe he means North West Tonight, I think Look North West was it's previous name.
Sam

Starmill · 4 Jun 2018

td97 said:
Do you mean BBC Look North (Cumbria/NE regional news) or BBC North West Tonight (NW)

BBC Look North is the name of three different local news programmes in English regions at the BBC. One covers the North East and Cumbria, another covers East Yorkshire and Lincolnshire and a third covers the rest of Yorkshire. There's also East Midlands Today and West Midlands Today which are fairly self explanatory, and South East Today and South Today which also kind of make sense. Then there is Look East for East Anglia, Points West for Bristol and Wiltshire, and, oddly Spotlight for the South West. There is also BBC London News and North West Tonight mentioned by Bungle.

Their counterparts are Reporting Scotland and An Lá in Scotland, Wales Today and Newyddion in Wales and Newsline in Northern Ireland.

Starmill · 4 Jun 2018

Red Devil said:
The Tories have been in since 2010 do you think if they could bring the legislation in to curb the unions they would have done so by now?

That's exactly what they have done!

Bertie the bus · 4 Jun 2018

Domh245 said:
Quoting a few posts by Tony Miles here:

If I wanted to know what Tony Miles has to say on the subject I would read his posts on the forum he posts on.

Have you ever bothered to check how much he says is actually correct? The verifiable stuff obviously. Not much.

muz379 · 4 Jun 2018

jayah said:
Even barristers don't charge for work not carried out. 28hr week on a 35hr contract is ridiculous.

Barristers charge typically by the hour , what do you think they do if court is adjourned midway through an hour they have been paid for ? Besides the analogy is not really that useful , barristers fees are negotiable in each individual case so they might charge one client a different rate to another based on different factors .

As for 28hrs being worked when the contract is 35hrs . The company are the ones who have a responsibility to ensure best use of all available resources , so why your vitriol on this topic is aimed at ASLEF when the company are the ones who allegedly permit that practice to go on is beyond me .

Besides in reality no week is exactly 35hrs long , the 35hr contract is merely an average taken over how ever many weeks are in the link .some weeks of booked work will be 28 hrs or less anyway . If I was the company who supposedly had to comply with a 7 hr limit on training turns with a shortage of drivers or no RDW I would use these weeks to mark drivers to training thus ensuring best use of resources . Surely failing to do so would just be poor resource management ? which surprise surprise has nothing to do with ASLEF

Besides if this agreement does exist , the company entered into it and could withdraw from it . Do you really think that ASLEF would escalate to a full dispute over being told that training turns be kept to booked job lengths ? How do you think that would play out then ?

SSp · 4 Jun 2018

47802 said:
Anybody like to predict the number of cancellations tomorrow even with the temporary Timetable

Seemingly not, but I am keeping an eye as fancy a trip to St Anne's tomorrow.

B&I · 4 Jun 2018

PR1Berske said:
Such as Trade Union leaders, for example.

Yes, trade union leaders are among that small and useless coterie. But their contribution to the current programme of theft of the entire wealth of the British people is pretty small. A hedge fund could steal more in an afternoon than a trade union leader could manage in a century

Bantamzen · 4 Jun 2018

Domh245 said:
Quoting a few posts by Tony Miles here:

Northern certainly aren't blameless, and are the only ones that the fare paying public has any sort of contact with, but they certainly aren't 100% to blame and are entitled to point out the shortcomings of the infrastructure provider (without whom they can't really do much after all)

Some interesting thoughts there, and shows just how complex this whole situation has become. DfT in the first instance need to get a handle on just what's happening, the delays to the various projects has been known about, or at least speculated about for some time. So they & NR need to get onboard with the TOCs to make sure that a) They deliver on time, and where there is slippage work proactively with them to ensure that any new timetables can be recast & considered before implementation & b) Work with the TOCs to allow them to undertake remedial works, as well as any required training as soon as possible.

It will of course be no comfort for all the passengers currently caught up in the mess, but with the Liverpool blockade now on there is at least a little time to address at least some of the issues outstanding.

Antman · 4 Jun 2018

Northern MD David Brown has just been on BBC Breakfast explaining the interim timetable amidst the inevitable calls for Northern to be stripped of the franchise................I'm surprised nobody has suggested those knights in shining armour from TfL take it over!!

Bantamzen · 4 Jun 2018

George166 said:
Northern MD David Brown has just been on BBC Breakfast explaining the interim timetable amidst the inevitable calls for Northern to be stripped of the franchise................I'm surprised nobody has suggested those knights in shining armour from TfL take it over!!

I've stopped watching BBC Breakfast, it just winds me up too much for the morning commute (although thankfully the new timetables saw my starting train moved forward half an hour to 05:56 so I miss it anyway now!). They are too focused on using clichés, ignoring all the facts & finding "victims" that will happily tell anyone that will listen how their lives have been devastated by the timetable muck up. That is of course if there's time between the latest "health scare" story......

Sorry, was that a bit too cynical?

Buspilot · 4 Jun 2018

Just a point on Northern MD David Brown having turned up on BBC Breakfast this morning, as BBC Radio 4 have said they invited him on their "Today" program this morning, but were told he was too busy.

No mention that he was appearing on what the BBC term, another of their "platforms".

Camden · 4 Jun 2018

B&I said:
It is a pity that so much of the population is vulnerable to divide and rule tactics, instead of most of the population recognising that a tiny minority are enriching themselves at the expense of everyone else

It's how people are bred, and quite possibly why they are bred that way. It suits so many different little cliques to varying levels of reward, starting from the level of local government despots right up to oligarchs. It's noticeable that the levels of inbuilt reward in society for not rocking the boat start at the lowest level at which people can have influence on improving society. Below that there's nothing.

RickSanchez · 4 Jun 2018

Buspilot said:
Just a point on Northern MD David Brown having turned up on BBC Breakfast this morning, as BBC Radio 4 have said they invited him on their "Today" program this morning, but were told he was too busy.

No mention that he was appearing on what the BBC term, another of their "platforms".

I personally can’t see any desire from the DfT to strip the franchise from Arriva.

At the moment they can try to distance themselves from the disruption by laying blame at the door of NR and Arriva and also imply industrial relations and ASLEF and RMT are to blame.

With further disruption inevitable with the December timetable change and the inevitable DOO rollout from 1st January 2020 I can see them leaving this firmly in the hands of Arriva.

Moonshot · 4 Jun 2018

Loop & Link said:
I have a week in the link where I do 26 hours.

I also have a week where I do 59.5 hours (Sun-Sat)

Would you like unload both barrels on me too @jayah for working less than 35 hours in 1 week?

Think you need to look up what an average 35 hour week means and is, because no driver does exactly 8hr45 on a 4 day week. It could be 6hr32 one day and 9hr58 another day.

A point I have already made on this thread. I've no idea why there is a sudden fascination with train crew rosters, we are contracted to work 35 hours a week like a lot of others. It just so happens it encompasses shift patterns to meet the needs of the business. In the last few weeks, train crew have been spread a little more thinly than was originally planned for, which combined with both the rolling stock and infrastructure issues has led to the current situation.

RickSanchez · 4 Jun 2018

Moonshot said:
A point I have already made on this thread. I've no idea why there is a sudden fascination with train crew rosters, we are contracted to work 35 hours a week like a lot of others. It just so happens it encompasses shift patterns to meet the needs of the business. In the last few weeks, train crew have been spread a little more thinly than was originally planned for, which combined with both the rolling stock and infrastructure issues has led to the current situation.

This....what would be the service increase if drivers suddenly went to 40hrs per week? It would be an extra 1-1 and 1/4 hour per day and would make negligible difference to the actual rostering and would essentially lead to a little bit more ‘padding’ in the diagrams without much more, if any productive driving.

It would result in an equivalent 20hrs pay per driver per month so around an extra £500 a month perhaps.

Seems a big cost for a minimal commercial benefit

Adlington · 4 Jun 2018

Greater Manchester Mayor calls for temporary fare cut

Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham has called for a temporary fare cut on rail routes affected by an interim timetable. Mr Burnham said Northern tickets should also be accepted by other operators.

"Many Northern passengers are already significantly out of pocket following recent disruption," the mayor said. "Now, people who have bought advance or season tickets valid in the next two months face receiving a lower level of service than was being offered when they bought those tickets."

pemma · 4 Jun 2018

Adlington said:
Greater Manchester Mayor calls for temporary fare cut

Nice idea in theory. However, why should Atherton line passengers see a temporary fare cut for their additional services temporarily being suspended when other lines haven't as yet got their extra services which should have added in last December?

CompactDstrxion · 4 Jun 2018

My train this morning which was already running late managed to call at Batley when no Northern services call at Batley. Bet the TPE drivers stuck behind loved that.

Moonshot · 4 Jun 2018

RickSanchez said:
This....what would be the service increase if drivers suddenly went to 40hrs per week? It would be an extra 1-1 and 1/4 hour per day and would make negligible difference to the actual rostering and would essentially lead to a little bit more ‘padding’ in the diagrams without much more, if any productive driving.

It would result in an equivalent 20hrs pay per driver per month so around an extra £500 a month perhaps.

Seems a big cost for a minimal commercial benefit

But that is not going to happen anyway. As has been pointed out numerous times, some drivers will end up doing a 40 hours plus week anyway because of the desire to earn some extra money on rest day working. That has always been the case , but of course right now that isn't actually happening.

pemma · 4 Jun 2018

CompactDstrxion said:
My train this morning which was already running late managed to call at Batley when no Northern services call at Batley. Bet the TPE drivers stuck behind loved that.

There is actually an early Leeds-Wigan service booked to call at Batley.

AndrewE · 4 Jun 2018

RickSanchez said:
This....what would be the service increase if drivers suddenly went to 40hrs per week? It would be an extra 1-1 and 1/4 hour per day and would make negligible difference to the actual rostering and would essentially lead to a little bit more ‘padding’ in the diagrams without much more, if any productive driving. It would result in an equivalent 20hrs pay per driver per month so around an extra £500 a month perhaps.

Seems a big cost for a minimal commercial benefit

How about looking at it from the point of the reliability of a public service (part of our national infrastructure) that lots of people rely on? Rather than simply a "commercial benefit" - and to whom? The curse that is Management Accounting strikes again! It simply drives a selfish blinkered focus on the "bottom line" of the smallest units and ignores all externalities, which is why infrastructure like the railway needs to be seen in the whole and be politically answerable (rather than just having financial deliverables) because there are far more important outcomes than "profit." Which is why the NHS recently-revealed deficit for last year isn't such a big deal, the simple fact is that they should have been given more money as the year progressed.

Back to the railway: If the staffing diagrams are currently so tight that knock-on delays cripple lots of other services then there is a good argument for making them less intense. Of course it would be less "efficient," but there might well be a net gain in "UK efficiency" as the customers' working days and leisure time become more productive.
It's not the only factor needing fixing of course.

CompactDstrxion · 4 Jun 2018

jcollins said:
There is actually an early Leeds-Wigan service booked to call at Batley.

Interesting. I was not on that one though!

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