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Keolis Amey Wales - Future Rolling Stock

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krus_aragon

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I'm unsure about the regular Holyhead-Cardiff service; is it going hourly as was rumoured or is it staying bi-hourly?

Bi-hourly, with three trains each way loco-hauled mark-4s. Nothing at all's been said about the Holyhead-Birmingham service, leading people to believe either it's been left off because there's no change to it, or because it's going to be withdrawn (an hourly Bangor-Manchester was among the announcements).
 
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Bungle965

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Bletcheyite is entitled to his opinion on them, however I think his opinion on the 175 is completely wrong. I've travelled on them many a time, never been on one that's failed in service and yes they are extremely comfortable. Also been in the cab of them many times road learning and the cab environment isn't bad at all . As has been said, given them a proper half life refurb that makes them more reliable, and someone should get an excellent train out of them.
Indeed, the only problem that I have found with them is that they are now starting to show their age. Carpets and seat covers are frayed and worn down, they could also do with having plug sockets fitted to them, especially for the lengths of journey can/do make on them.
Apart from that they are decent units and credit to those who make them work day in and out, they are miles better than the once were however I still imagine they are a temperamental piece of kit.
Sam
 

krus_aragon

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He does seem to have a particular dislike for them.

I much prefer them over 158s, if only they had plug sockets.

Plug sockets on 95% plus of trains was in yesterday's announcements, so they should come to the 175s. I can't see them going another five years without a mid-life refresh.
 

pemma

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For the Heart of Wales line, wouldn't the end doored 175s have made more sense than 170s, which are better suited for busier services needing a faster turnaround at stations?

The current rolling stock plan has the 170s introduced and kept until 2025 onwards, with the 175 off-lease from 2022. New lease agreements aside, there's nothing to stop TfW changing their minds and keeping the 175s if another franchise decides they really want the 170s off their hands instead. I suppose the downside is that TfW keeping some of the 175s leaves a smaller microfleet for the ROSCO to try to sell elsewhere.

It's worth remembering the Turbostars are cheap to operate, while both the 175s and 185s aren't cheap to operate while the HOW is a loss making line. Consequently it could be 170s are the only modernish stock which would be economically viable to use on the HOW.
 

TRAX

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Looking then at the image of the tramtrain
_101866533_mediaitem101866532.jpg

I can't help but notice similarities (the chin and rounded windows) to Stadler products - or at the least, dissimilarities to CAFs tram train.

The zoomed out version of this picture that Keolis Group just uploaded on their Twitter account does indeed show "Stadler" on the destination indicator.
 

pemma

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Plug sockets on 95% plus of trains was in yesterday's announcements, so they should come to the 175s. I can't see them going another five years without a mid-life refresh.

I can't see that anywhere. I can see a mention of wifi being available for 85% of passenger's end to end journeys but no mention of plug sockets on 95% of trains.
 

krus_aragon

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I can't see that anywhere. I can see a mention of wifi being available for 85% of passenger's end to end journeys but no mention of plug sockets on 95% of trains.
Ken Skates' statement:
Power supplies will be available at over 95 per cent of seats across all rolling stock types by 2020, with 100 per cent roll out completed by 2022.

They can't hit the 95% target by 2020 without doing the 175, as they'll still be in use until 2022.
 

Domh245

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The zoomed out version of this picture that Keolis Group just uploaded on their Twitter account does indeed show "Stadler" on the destination indicator.

So it does. It also has "STADLER" written underneath the driver's side window, although you do have to properly look for it!
 

krus_aragon

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The zoomed out version of this picture that Keolis Group just uploaded on their Twitter account does indeed show "Stadler" on the destination indicator.
Shurely that should be the origin, not the destination? (Unless they're being sent back for repair!)
 

ainsworth74

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There'll be First (Business) Class, don't worry. I also hope for the same high standard of catering on the evening return from Bangor!

Which will presumably mean that we'll see the Mk4 SVs (the buffet car) return to their original configuration as built with first class seating at one end with the buffet counter/kitchen at the other rather than the present standard class seating next to the buffet counter with the kitchen at the far end next to Coach K (a FO). I certainly can't imagine that the idea is to import an FO there isn't enough first class demand in my experience of the WAG!
 

Martin222002

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Which will presumably mean that we'll see the Mk4 SVs (the buffet car) return to their original configuration as built with first class seating at one end with the buffet counter/kitchen at the other rather than the present standard class seating next to the buffet counter with the kitchen at the far end next to Coach K (a FO). I certainly can't imagine that the idea is to import an FO there isn't enough first class demand in my experience of the WAG!
Eversholt has proposed in the past moving the kitchen / galley into the DVT, so that could be a possibility. Though I think it's more likely as you say that the Mk4 SVs will simply be changed from standard to first class.
 

Envoy

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I can’t help but think that had Cardiff to Swansea be electrified, that new trains for the west Wales to Manchester services should have been ordered as bi-modes. Crewe to Manchester is of course already electrified so adding in Newport to Swansea would surely have been the ‘tipping point’ for having bi-modes? Likewise, similar bi-mode trains should also be ordered for the Cardiff (or Swansea) to Portsmouth run as they could make use of the wires as far as Bath. The present situation of introducing Class 165/166 turbos from the Thames valley suburban routes is surely an inferior solution - and even worse than the present 158’s on this route.

PS. What would really be a pity is if new diesel trains are ordered for the west Wales to Manchester route & then the government decides to electrify from Cardiff to Swansea. It would clearly make Cardiff to Swansea electrification more justifiable if the west Wales to Manchester services could also use the wires in addition to the GWR Class 800’s plus the local stoppers.
 

krus_aragon

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I can’t help but think that had Cardiff to Swansea be electrified, that new trains for the west Wales to Manchester services should have been ordered as bi-modes. Crewe to Manchester is of course already electrified so adding in Newport to Swansea would surely have been the ‘tipping point’ for having bi-modes?
I'm sure this would have been the case (given the readiness to use tri-modes around Cardiff).
 

pemma

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Ken Skates' statement:


They can't hit the 95% target by 2020 without doing the 175, as they'll still be in use until 2022.

Note his exact wording. Power supplies not plug sockets, that could mean USB charging points or plug sockets.

I notice he's also promising air conditioning on the D-Trains and tram-trains.
 

Domh245

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I notice he's also promising air conditioning on the D-Trains and tram-trains.

Air con on the tram trains is unsurprising - their cousins in Sheffield are Air Conditioned as far as I can tell, and it is something of a basic expectancy from new build now. The D-Trains will be more interesting...
 

Bletchleyite

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Air cooling =/= Air conditioning

From the passenger's point of view it pretty much is. The Chiltern units have what is actually air cooling but it works better than the unmodified so-called air-conditioning on any ex-BR train.

What I would like to see introduced is climate control - introducing air at the specified temperature and humidity from several points in the vehicle rather than the typical railway "cook your ankles and freeze the top of your head and hope it sort of mixes". But that seems to be way off.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I was thinking this the other day, they had a run of turning out utter dreck in the early 2000s. The 175s, 460s and 334s, have all proved problematic in service. Didn't they have to give ScotRail two additional 334s as they'd messed them around so much? The only thing they got half right was the 390 and that was a Fiat design. Is this why they haven't featured in the UK market much since then?

Alstom pretty much withdrew from bidding for new trains for the UK after the Coradia/Juniper saga, and closed Washwood Heath with no orders after the 390s.
The 2012 new Virgin Pendolino trains/cars were built in Italy/France.
Their current range is not to the UK's taste, though the iLint hydrogen trains might get them back if the trials get anywhere.
They bid articulated trains for Thameslink, but NR took fright and they were excluded from the short list.
But today we have Stadler's articulated Flirts coming in for GA and Merseyrail, so someone has changed their thinking somewhere.
Meanwhile, Alstom's UK English Electric/GEC heritage has practically vanished, with the 390 traction package being about the last hurrah.
The new Widnes plant, however, might be the springboard for a comeback.
 
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pemma

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Alstom pretty much withdrew from bidding for new trains for the UK after the Coradia/Juniper saga, and closed Washwood Heath with no orders after the 390s.
Their current range is not to the UK's taste, though the iLint hydrogen trains might get them back if the trials get anywhere.
They bid articulated trains for Thameslink, but NR took fright and they were excluded from the short list.
But today we have Stadler's articulated Flirts coming in for GA, so someone has changed their thinking somewhere.
Meanwhile, Alstom's UK English Electric/GEC heritage has practically vanished, with the 390 traction package being about the last hurrah.
The new Widnes plant, however, might be the springboard for a comeback.

It's worth noting Alstom will soon be maintaining trains on behalf of TPE, even though TPE won't have trains built by Alstom.
 

Domh245

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Alstom pretty much withdrew from bidding for new trains for the UK after the Coradia/Juniper saga, and closed Washwood Heath with no orders after the 390s.
The 2012 new Virgin Pendolino trains/cars were built in Italy/France.
Their current range is not to the UK's taste, though the iLint hydrogen trains might get them back if the trials get anywhere.
They bid articulated trains for Thameslink, but NR took fright and they were excluded from the short list.
But today we have Stadler's articulated Flirts coming in for GA, so someone has changed their thinking somewhere.
Meanwhile, Alstom's UK English Electric/GEC heritage has practically vanished, with the 390 traction package being about the last hurrah.
The new Widnes plant, however, might be the springboard for a comeback.

Worth noting that they've partnered with Stagecoach for bidding on the South Eastern franchise, so should they win we'll be likely to see at least their metro product, as well as potentially mainline products as well.
 

K.o.R

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They missed a trick with the colours. TfL style but white upper, green lower and red doors. Bam, about as Welsh a livery as you can get!
 

Bletchleyite

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They missed a trick with the colours. TfL style but white upper, green lower and red doors. Bam, about as Welsh a livery as you can get!

I'm actually quite glad they went red *or* green, I think as a livery both would clash horribly (I was never a fan of Valley Lines colours), though one based purely on green with red only in a logo would have worked. OTOH the present one basically looks like a copy of Abellio livery.
 

transmanche

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What a bizarre thing to say, the 175s are by far the most comfortable trains ATW use. They're the closest any post-BR DMU has come to looking like a Mk3 coach, externally and internally, and I'd say despite their age still the most comfortable sub-125mph DMU.
There's only one thing wrong with the 175s: you can't fit a 'cabin-friendly' sized suitcase in the overhead luggage racks (as you can on 185s and mark IVs). They are in desperate need of am an interior refresh though - a good refurb would add plug/USB sockets too.
 

mmh

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There's only one thing wrong with the 175s: you can't fit a 'cabin-friendly' sized suitcase in the overhead luggage racks (as you can on 185s and mark IVs)

That's true - mine fits (just) on 390s but then changing to a 175 it doesn't, which seems bonkers when the body profile should give it more room to have sensible sized racks.

They are in desperate need of am an interior refresh though - a good refurb would add plug/USB sockets too.
I don't think they're too bad, just a little dated looking.
 

krus_aragon

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I don't think they're too bad, just a little dated looking.

The 175's interior decor still has a lot of First North Western's colour scheme in it. I hope that'll be replaced rather than have a third livery merged with it.

On a similar note, until their recent refurbishment, our 158s still had the royal/sky blue Regional Railways colours along the overhead luggage racks!
 
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