Has the North been given a raw deal

Domh245 · 5 Jun 2018

But stadler will be building ~half of the new vehicles for the franchise. The Tri mode flirts will likely be built at Bussnang or their Eastern European plants, whilst the tram trains could likely be built at the former vossloh plant at Valencia (which is where the other city links were built). As far as I can tell, all of the CAF DMUs will be built in Wales based on the "50% Welsh built fleet" claim.

Also, given that the Pacers are mainly based on valley line services - which are being entirely replaced by the tram trains and tri-modes, they should be amply covered. The DMUs are primarily replacing the medium and long distance fleets (ie 158, 175, and some proportion of the 150 & 153s)

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pemma · 5 Jun 2018

DanNCL said:
I think the negatives of introducing an additional unit type to the fleet (175) would be outweighed by the benefits of having just one unit type based at Heaton (175) as opposed to the current two (142 and 156), and the benefits of having all of the 156s at Newton Heath. Coradia units were until recently maintained at Heaton (GC's 180s), so there's already a good amount of maintenance knowledge there that could be applied to maintaining the 175s. From a maintenance point of view I think introducing the 175s in the North East and moving the 156s to the North West in turn would actually be more efficient than keeping the current arrangements.

According to one poster on another forum there's very little in common between the 175s and 180s from a maintenance point of view.

47802 · 5 Jun 2018

Look I'm a Northerner and I thought the previous franchise was a National disgrace, however aside from the current timetable shambles I am happy enough with what's planned ie end of Railbuses, some new stock, cascaded 170's, Electrification of Manchester Blackpool if Network Rail ever finish it, and a number of sparse routes getting better services.

150 are not great but they aren't that bad either good enough for relatively short journeys, the refurbishment of them well its not great but just about adequate and the end of the day you are tarting up a 30 year old train for probably another 7 to 10 years usage.

And has already been pointed out by myself and others the Welsh franchise is much longer

Bornin1980s · 5 Jun 2018

Domh245 said:
But stadler will be building ~half of the new vehicles for the franchise. The Tri mode flirts will likely be built at Bussnang or their Eastern European plants, whilst the tram trains could likely be built at the former vossloh plant at Valencia (which is where the other city links were built). As far as I can tell, all of the CAF DMUs will be built in Wales based on the "50% Welsh built fleet" claim.

Also, given that the Pacers are mainly based on valley line services - which are being entirely replaced by the tram trains and tri-modes, they should be amply covered. The DMUs are primarily replacing the medium and long distance fleets (ie 158, 175, and some proportion of the 150 & 153s)

I was referring only to the Northern franchise. I only mentioned Wales because of the new CAF plant there, which might have a part in the last of the new Northern trains.

Andyh82 · 5 Jun 2018

47802 said:
Look I'm a Northerner and I thought the previous franchise was a National disgrace, however aside from the current timetable shambles I am happy enough with what's planned ie end of Railbuses, some new stock, cascaded 170's, Electrification of Manchester Blackpool if Network Rail ever finish it, and a number of sparse routes getting better services.

150 are not great but they aren't that bad either good enough for relatively short journeys, the refurbishment of them well its not great but just about adequate and the end of the day you are tarting up a 30 year old train for probably another 7 to 10 years usage.

And has already been pointed out by myself and others the Welsh franchise is much longer

Based on timescales from franchise announcement to new trains actually entering service, you’d be looking at at least 2028 before any new trains arrived as part of the next franchise.

Many parts of the Northern network, including lots of fairly long distance commuter services won’t see anything but a class 150 for the next 10 years, even refurbished they are still old trains, they look old, they sound old, the ancient looking metal windows with the hoppers, the doors, the general feel of the interior.

It won’t be long after Pacers go when people say hold on a minute, we were told in the press releases we were getting new trains, we’ve actually got trains just as old, and the sprinters will be the next hated train.

Class 158s are ok, as they look modern.

Whether the current franchise can afford it or not, I can’t see a situation where modern stock 156 and above from Anglia, West Midlands, Wales is off lease will be politically acceptable, so will presumably all migrate to Northern eventually by default.

matacaster · 5 Jun 2018

Could some of the spare 185's be used by Northern on S&C where their considerable power and 90mph capability lead to a much better product on the S&C, with improved journey times and passenger comfort. This assumes NR finally get their finger out and re-signal etc S&C for 90mph running.

Agent_Squash · 5 Jun 2018

matacaster said:
Could some of the spare 185's be used by Northern on S&C where their considerable power and 90mph capability lead to a much better product on the S&C, with improved journey times and passenger comfort. This assumes NR finally get their finger out and re-signal etc S&C for 90mph running.

Surely it would be better off using them on a route which is capable of 100mph running? I personally think they should go to the Northern routes they were on previously (excluding Blackpool for obvious reasons)

superkev · 5 Jun 2018

Agent_Squash said:
Surely it would be better off using them on a route which is capable of 100mph running? I personally think they should go to the Northern routes they were on previously (excluding Blackpool for obvious reasons)

Northern has very little track that's faster than 75mph let alone 100. The recently resignalled Blackpool line to just 75mph is a disgrace.
The 185's would be ideal for the Calder valley which has 5 or 6 miles of 90mph.
185's nice too for the s and c particularly if the fast line speeds could be restored.
K

muddythefish · 5 Jun 2018

DarloRich said:
what is wrong with a 150?

Apart from being 30 plus years old, outdated and no longer fit for purpose ?

lejog · 5 Jun 2018

superkev said:
Northern has very little track that's faster than 75mph let alone 100. The recently resignalled Blackpool line to just 75mph is a disgrace.
The 185's would be ideal for the Calder valley which has 5 or 6 miles of 90mph.
185's nice too for the s and c particularly if the fast line speeds could be restored.
K

Except that 185s are limited to 70mph on tbe 90mph strdtches of the Calder Valley.

DarloRich · 5 Jun 2018

muddythefish said:
Apart from being 30 plus years old, outdated and no longer fit for purpose ?

Perfectly good condition mechanically and structurally & nothing a decent internal overhaul wouldn't fix inside. BTW - what purpose is it not fit for?

Agent_Squash · 5 Jun 2018

superkev said:
Northern has very little track that's faster than 75mph let alone 100. The recently resignalled Blackpool line to just 75mph is a disgrace.
The 185's would be ideal for the Calder valley which has 5 or 6 miles of 90mph.
185's nice too for the s and c particularly if the fast line speeds could be restored.
K

What about the Furness/Lakes services, with over 70 miles of 100mph running?

Bletchleyite · 5 Jun 2018

muddythefish said:
Apart from being 30 plus years old, outdated and no longer fit for purpose ?

They have doors at thirds and lots of seats. Other than the desire for electrification (which gives you a Class 319, which is basically a 4-car electric version of the same thing) in what way aren't they fit for purpose, where the purpose is commuter trains and rural branches?

I agree they're a bit old, but that doesn't make them not fit for purpose. all that means is that people will want to replace them with something nicer and newer.

Bletchleyite · 5 Jun 2018

Agent_Squash said:
What about the Furness/Lakes services, with over 70 miles of 100mph running?

I still think bi-modes for those routes - but if they insist on dirty diesels you can do worse than 185s or indeed either 170, 175 or the 195s they will be getting.

DarloRich · 5 Jun 2018

Bletchleyite said:
I agree they're a bit old, but that doesn't make them not fit for purpose. all that means is that people will want to replace them with something nicer and newer.

Which you can have if you pay for because the government wont.

Bletchleyite · 5 Jun 2018

DarloRich said:
Which you can have if you pay for because the government wont.

True. FWIW I think the LM refurb is reasonably OK, it basically puts them "back to box" but with modern interior styling.

DarloRich · 5 Jun 2018

Bletchleyite said:
True. FWIW I think the LM refurb is reasonably OK, it basically puts them "back to box" but with modern interior styling.

I disagree - they needed new seats. Wont be our problem soon anyway

PS i don't understand the issues with a 150 - living as I did in Darlo for many the years the vast majority of our local services were worked by pacers. A 150 is like a place by comparison!

muddythefish · 5 Jun 2018

DarloRich said:
I disagree - they needed new seats. Wont be our problem soon anyway

So the seats aren't "fit for purpose"...ie, sitting on. Thanks for confirming !

Bletchleyite · 5 Jun 2018

muddythefish said:
So the seats aren't "fit for purpose"...ie, sitting on. Thanks for confirming !

All the North West ones got new Chapman seating in the 1990s, there's nowt wrong with that apart from it being 3+2, but then so is just about all other commuter stock.

DarloRich · 5 Jun 2018

muddythefish said:
So the seats aren't "fit for purpose"...ie, sitting on. Thanks for confirming !

As i said - nothing a decent refurb wouldn't fix. That is a long way from not fit for purpose. But i think you knew that............

BTW there is nothing wrong with the seats other than they are in 3+2 layout that i don't like. They are perfectly usable.

Jamesrob637 · 6 Jun 2018

I went yesterday New Mills Central-Sheffield and return (in addition to a whole load of other trains in Derbyshire). Was a Pacer out and a 150 return. Give me a 150 any day! The 150 I had was newly refurbished but even an unrefurbished unit would've been a massive improvement.

Oh and whilst this probably isn't the correct thread, the 20:14 from Sheffield to Manchester being skip-stop is good if it's a little late out of Sheffield. We were 5 or 6 down out of Sheffield due to the incoming service having been delayed, but we were more or less right time by New Mills!

Whattraintoday · 6 Jun 2018

As a Calder Valley commuter who finds himself on Pacers & 150s almost continuously I find myself in the somewhat self-contradictory position of agreeing with everyone above about 150s.
Yes, 150s will get some flak for being old, unless Northern can refurb them before the Pacers go. Even then, they're a stop-gap for 7-10 years.
Next franchise period will see to their replacement (and the 155/156s?)
They're massively better than a Pacer. Anyone who defends a Pacer still being in regular revenue service in 2018 needs to spend more time on them.
The seats on a 150 aren't great. They'll do for now. See my above about refurbs - attention will always be directed to the oldest rolling stock a TOC uses. If they can refurb almost all before they become the bearers of that epithet, it'll be fine.
If we want better, we'll have to pay for it in fares. Not happening. Northerners' reputation for being tight is deserved.

That being said, new trains would increase ridership, especially into Leeds where the road traffic is horrendous and there's no trams. I remember the Airedale line going from Pacers to 308s to 333s. Capacity increases caused ridership to increase to the extent that the 333s needed extending from 3-4 cars. They've needed extending again for about 10 years now.

If only the DfT would see that increasing ridership on these commuter services would make them (more?) profitable and could reduce the subsidy required for Northern. Would probably pay for itself over the life of a franchise.

47802 · 6 Jun 2018

Whattraintoday said:
As a Calder Valley commuter who finds himself on Pacers & 150s almost continuously I find myself in the somewhat self-contradictory position of agreeing with everyone above about 150s.
Yes, 150s will get some flak for being old, unless Northern can refurb them before the Pacers go. Even then, they're a stop-gap for 7-10 years.
Next franchise period will see to their replacement (and the 155/156s?)
They're massively better than a Pacer. Anyone who defends a Pacer still being in regular revenue service in 2018 needs to spend more time on them.
The seats on a 150 aren't great. They'll do for now. See my above about refurbs - attention will always be directed to the oldest rolling stock a TOC uses. If they can refurb almost all before they become the bearers of that epithet, it'll be fine.
If we want better, we'll have to pay for it in fares. Not happening. Northerners' reputation for being tight is deserved.

That being said, new trains would increase ridership, especially into Leeds where the road traffic is horrendous and there's no trams. I remember the Airedale line going from Pacers to 308s to 333s. Capacity increases caused ridership to increase to the extent that the 333s needed extending from 3-4 cars. They've needed extending again for about 10 years now.

If only the DfT would see that increasing ridership on these commuter services would make them (more?) profitable and could reduce the subsidy required for Northern. Would probably pay for itself over the life of a franchise.

The point is much of the investment in rolling stock for Northern we have yet to see, and things should change in a big way in that respect in the next 12 months, and the whole point of the improved timetable and some new trains is to see a reduction in the subsidy of the franchise, although whether there will be any passengers left to try these new trains the ways are going with the timetable shambles and ongoing strikes remains to be seen, the railway as a whole is managing to do a good job at driving people away at present but obviously those issues are being debated elsewhere.

Also by the time the Welsh franchise has got a lot of their new trains it will be time to start looking at the next Northern Franchise anyway.

Whattraintoday · 6 Jun 2018

47802 said:
The point is much of the investment in rolling stock for Northern we have yet to see, and things should change in a big way in that respect in the next 12 months, and the whole point of the improved timetable and some new trains is to see a reduction in the subsidy of the franchise, although whether there will be any passengers left to try these new trains the ways are going with the timetable shambles and ongoing strikes remains to be seen, the railway as a whole is managing to do a good job at driving people away at present but obviously those issues are being debated elsewhere.

Also by the time the Welsh franchise has got a lot of their new trains it will be time to start looking at the next Northern Franchise anyway.

True. I very nearly confused Northern and the DfT with competent organisations there.

47802 · 6 Jun 2018

deleted

XC victim · 6 Jun 2018

DarloRich said:
what is wrong with a 150?

Personally I much prefer to travel on a pacer than a class 150.

I find the class 150 seats are absolutely terrible, too low and usually broken. For some reason the windows are always dirty and hard to see out of and you simultaneously get blasted with hot and cold air, which always makes me feel quite ill. The 3 + 2 seating always ends up being used as 2 + 1. I was really disappointed with them when I first travelled on them 30years ago, and they have pretty much remained unaltered.

The refurbished 144 have nice seats and a lovely window view. It maybe a bit of a bumpy (& screechy) ride but I can live with that.

DarloRich · 6 Jun 2018

XC victim said:
Personally I much prefer to travel on a pacer than a class 150.

I find the class 150 seats are absolutely terrible, too low and usually broken. For some reason the windows are always dirty and hard to see out of and you simultaneously get blasted with hot and cold air, which always makes me feel quite ill. The 3 + 2 seating always ends up being used as 2 + 1. I was really disappointed with them when I first travelled on them 30years ago, and they have pretty much remained unaltered.

The refurbished 144 have nice seats and a lovely window view. It maybe a bit of a bumpy (& screechy) ride but I can live with that.

to repeat: A decent internal refurb fixes this point.

XC victim · 6 Jun 2018

DarloRich said:
to repeat: A decent internal refurb fixes this point.

From what I have read there are no plans to replace seats or windows. I am not sure whether they are going to work on the heating either so I am really not holding my breath.

Andyh82 · 6 Jun 2018

DarloRich said:
I disagree - they needed new seats. Wont be our problem soon anyway

PS i don't understand the issues with a 150 - living as I did in Darlo for many the years the vast majority of our local services were worked by pacers. A 150 is like a place by comparison!

Really?
A class 144 or an ex-ATN class 150 with the low down black seats where almost everything is exactly as built by BR with just a layer of paint on the refurbished ones.

I think with those two options I’d take the pacer

If they are such a robust train perfect for short length commuting, why are Great Northern getting rid of the 313s, internally it’s basically the same train.

underbank · 6 Jun 2018

"Short length commuting" - shame they're used on the long/slow Cumbria coast, S&C and Bentham lines where journeys can easily be 2-3 hours!

Has the North been given a raw deal

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