Method of train dispatch

brick60000 · 5 Jun 2018

Hi all,

I've been wondering recently why the method of train dispatch varies between rolling stock at certain stations. I understand that at some stations RA only is used for various reasons, but I was wondering why some rolling stock uses RA indicators where others use buzzer at the same location.

The example I'm thinking of is Virgin Trains West Coast's Pendolinos. The 390s are dispatched by RA at stations such as Stafford, Crewe, etc., but other stock is often dispatched by buzzer (including VTWC 221s). What is the reason for this variance?

I wasn't sure if this should go here or in infrastructure & stations, so sorry if others feel I've gone with the wrong one!

RailUK Forums

londonboi198o5 · 5 Jun 2018

The buzzer you refer to is the guards buzzer the platform staff do t use a buzzer they wound still use a RA

trebor79 · 5 Jun 2018

I recall a bell used to ring at Kings Cross, at least on the "Intercity" platforms. It sounded like an old fashioned electric firebell and would ring for 30 seconds or so prior to departure (but after the doors were shut iirc).

Don't know if it still happens, but what is/was the purpose of it?

transportphoto · 5 Jun 2018

Dispatch procedure is different station by station, and is assessed on what is safe for that location.

Here’s an old video from First Captial Connect talking about the various different dispatch procedures they used - mostly still relevant.

pt_mad · 5 Jun 2018

brick60000 said:
Hi all,

I've been wondering recently why the method of train dispatch varies between rolling stock at certain stations. I understand that at some stations RA only is used for various reasons, but I was wondering why some rolling stock uses RA indicators where others use buzzer at the same location.

The example I'm thinking of is Virgin Trains West Coast's Pendolinos. The 390s are dispatched by RA at stations such as Stafford, Crewe, etc., but other stock is often dispatched by buzzer (including VTWC 221s). What is the reason for this variance?

I wasn't sure if this should go here or in infrastructure & stations, so sorry if others feel I've gone with the wrong one!

I can only assume and it's pure assumption, that when the Pendolinos were being rolled out that West Coast agreed this method of dispatch at certain locations (with network rail and ASLEF and other tocs for various possible reasons): reduce the chance of SASSPADs to near zero for a class 390 at locations where RA is used; Pendolinos take longer to close the local door and for the step to retract back into the train, using the RA gives the dispatcher a last chance to abort the dispatch process if someone were to make contact with the outside of the train during that time; Voyagers were probably only intended for XC and Welsh routes so RA was probably not invisiged to be suitable or practical on a widespread basis on the Welsh and (Previously Virgin) XC routes.

Presumably the RA equipment and infrastructure was fitted as part of the West Coast Route Modernisation program, and possibly for when the original maximum linespeed was to be 140mph, later reduced to 125.

It's also notable that the driver releases the doors. They do also release them on 221s but I'd imagine RA was part of the main agreed methods as part of driver releases the doors arrangement for a 390 and the trains were phased in at different times.

It's probably a blessing in disguise for stations as well as it makes adequate staff ever more important as part of the dispatch process.

I believe stations that use bell buzzer on a 390 include Wigan N Western, Tamworth, Lichfield, possibly through Cumbria. Not sure about Sandwell and Dudley. Add or delete as appropriate where I may be incorrect. Not sure about Blackpool.

brick60000 · 5 Jun 2018

pt_mad said:
I can only assume and it's pure assumption, that when the Pendolinos were being rolled out that West Coast agreed this method of dispatch at certain locations (with network rail and ASLEF and other tocs for various possible reasons): reduce the chance of SASSPADs to near zero for a class 390 at locations where RA is used; Pendolinos take longer to close the local door and for the step to retract back into the train, using the RA gives the dispatcher a last chance to abort the dispatch process if someone were to make contact with the outside of the train during that time; Voyagers were probably only intended for XC and Welsh routes so RA was probably not invisiged to be suitable or practical on a widespread basis on the Welsh and (Previously Virgin) XC routes.

It's also notable that the driver releases the doors. They do also release them on 221s but I'd imagine RA was part of the main agreed methods as part of driver releases the doors arrangement for a 390 and the trains were phased in at different times.

It's probably a blessing in disguise for stations as well as it makes adequate staff ever more important as part of the dispatch process.

I believe stations that use bell buzzer on a 390 include Wigan N Western, Tamworth, Lichfield, possibly through Cumbria. Not sure about Sandwell and Dudley. Add or delete as appropriate where I may be incorrect. Not sure about Blackpool.

Ah, that makes sense re the step on the 390s. I have seen the ability to stop the process used before now, come to think of it.

Sandwell & Dudley is RA. The recent resignalling included provision of several RA repeaters along the plarform, as well as a banner repeater on the up. It's quite an interesting sight!

pt_mad · 5 Jun 2018

brick60000 said:
Ah, that makes sense re the step on the 390s. I have seen the ability to stop the process used before now, come to think of it.

Sandwell & Dudley is RA. The recent resignalling included provision of several RA repeaters along the plarform, as well as a banner repeater on the up. It's quite an interesting sight!

Wolverhampton is RA for all passenger trains I believe as of a couple of years ago.

RA is quite preferable really because once the guards local door is closed its possible for the dispatcher to have another look along the dispatch corridor to check all is still ok. So it gives that extra check before the ready to start is given to the driver.

ChrisHogan · 5 Jun 2018

pt_mad said:
I can only assume and it's pure assumption, that when the Pendolinos were being rolled out that West Coast agreed this method of dispatch at certain locations (with network rail and ASLEF and other tocs for various possible reasons): reduce the chance of SASSPADs to near zero for a class 390 at locations where RA is used; Pendolinos take longer to close the local door and for the step to retract back into the train, using the RA gives the dispatcher a last chance to abort the dispatch process if someone were to make contact with the outside of the train during that time; Voyagers were probably only intended for XC and Welsh routes so RA was probably not invisiged to be suitable or practical on a widespread basis on the Welsh and (Previously Virgin) XC routes.

Presumably the RA equipment and infrastructure was fitted as part of the West Coast Route Modernisation program, and possibly for when the original maximum linespeed was to be 140mph, later reduced to 125.

This is a fallback to B.R. (L.M.R.) practice in still using RA equipment. In general it is used elsewhere only in connection with DOO operation, often with CD indicators to initiate the despatch procedure. Everything at Birmingham NS is despatched using the RA equipment.

On the Western Region there was also RA equipment installed for loco-hauled trains (I think it was brought in with single-manning of locos) but this wasn't used for DMUs and later HSTs where the driver/guard equipment was used instead; being deemed safer as it was easier to halt the despatch process after giving the RA.

pt_mad · 5 Jun 2018

ChrisHogan said:
This is a fallback to B.R. (L.M.R.) practice in still using RA equipment. In general it is used elsewhere only in connection with DOO operation, often with CD indicators to initiate the despatch procedure. Everything at Birmingham NS is despatched using the RA equipment.

On the Western Region there was also RA equipment installed for loco-hauled trains (I think it was brought in with single-manning of locos) but this wasn't used for DMUs and later HSTs where the driver/guard equipment was used instead; being deemed safer as it was easier to halt the despatch process after giving the RA.

Presumably this logic (safer) was the key reason for having it fitted along the WCML during the WCML upgrade. At the time it was probably quite advanced and DOO obviously wasn't deemed suitable for the WCML new fleet so this was the next most modern installation of equipment. Andi suppose they were future proofing the line's kit to some extent in case DOO came later.

Please also note that at the time the 390s were introduced, Virgin Trains (with Virgin XC included) also leased the entire fleet of Voyager trains as well. Originally for mixed use along the WCML and XC routes.

If it had been deemed necessary for 221s to be RA dispatched it could have complicated things as it would only really have been possible at main WCML stations. Most of the XC routes stations wouldn't have the facility as well as stations to Holyhead. So essentially it becomes pointless for just two stations on the route to Holyhead.
But for a 390 most stations have the RA kit fitted and most use it as the given method of dispatch for a 390.

godfreycomplex · 5 Jun 2018

pt_mad said:
Presumably this logic (safer) was the key reason for having it fitted along the WCML during the WCML upgrade. At the time it was probably quite advanced and DOO obviously wasn't deemed suitable for the WCML new fleet so this was the next most modern installation of equipment. Andi suppose they were future proofing the line's kit to some extent in case DOO came later.

Please also note that at the time the 390s were introduced, Virgin Trains (with Virgin XC included) also leased the entire fleet of Voyager trains as well. Originally for mixed use along the WCML and XC routes.

If it had been deemed necessary for 221s to be RA dispatched it could have complicated things as it would only really have been possible at main WCML stations. Most of the XC routes stations wouldn't have the facility as well as stations to Holyhead. So essentially it becomes pointless for just two stations on the route to Holyhead.
But for a 390 most stations have the RA kit fitted and most use it as the given method of dispatch for a 390.

RA equipment at a lot of stations on the WCML dates from before Pendolinos I believe (it was certainly in use at New Street & Euston from shortly after electrification; and maybe even before).
It is a bit of a puzzler that Pendolinos get dispatched via the RA just about everywhere that it's fitted (Tamworth & Lichfield being two notable exceptions) but a lot of other stock doesn't. It does mean that guards on other stock can self-dispatch in certain circumstances; thus saving money (I don't think self-dispatch is allowed for Pendolinos anywhere); but when safety comes into it cost should come second.

godfreycomplex · 5 Jun 2018

pt_mad said:
I can only assume and it's pure assumption, that when the Pendolinos were being rolled out that West Coast agreed this method of dispatch at certain locations (with network rail and ASLEF and other tocs for various possible reasons): reduce the chance of SASSPADs to near zero for a class 390 at locations where RA is used; Pendolinos take longer to close the local door and for the step to retract back into the train, using the RA gives the dispatcher a last chance to abort the dispatch process if someone were to make contact with the outside of the train during that time; Voyagers were probably only intended for XC and Welsh routes so RA was probably not invisiged to be suitable or practical on a widespread basis on the Welsh and (Previously Virgin) XC routes.

Presumably the RA equipment and infrastructure was fitted as part of the West Coast Route Modernisation program, and possibly for when the original maximum linespeed was to be 140mph, later reduced to 125.

It's also notable that the driver releases the doors. They do also release them on 221s but I'd imagine RA was part of the main agreed methods as part of driver releases the doors arrangement for a 390 and the trains were phased in at different times.

It's probably a blessing in disguise for stations as well as it makes adequate staff ever more important as part of the dispatch process.

I believe stations that use bell buzzer on a 390 include Wigan N Western, Tamworth, Lichfield, possibly through Cumbria. Not sure about Sandwell and Dudley. Add or delete as appropriate where I may be incorrect. Not sure about Blackpool.

Lancaster; Carlisle; Motherwell; Glasgow Central and Edinburgh Waverley are RA
Oxenholme; Penrith; Lockerbie & Haymarket are bell-buzzer; as are Warrington Bank Quay & Wigan North Western (RA equipment wasn't fitted to the signals in the Warrington PSB area for some reason)
Poulton-le-Fylde doesn't have RA; although I believe Blackpool North may do.

pt_mad · 6 Jun 2018

godfreycomplex said:
RA equipment at a lot of stations on the WCML dates from before Pendolinos I believe (it was certainly in use at New Street & Euston from shortly after electrification; and maybe even before).
It is a bit of a puzzler that Pendolinos get dispatched via the RA just about everywhere that it's fitted (Tamworth & Lichfield being two notable exceptions) but a lot of other stock doesn't. It does mean that guards on other stock can self-dispatch in certain circumstances; thus saving money (I don't think self-dispatch is allowed for Pendolinos anywhere); but when safety comes into it cost should come second.

Tamworth and Lichfield I believe are self dispatch during the evening peak on 390s.

I suppose with those stations, there's no notable point work within the stations themselves so use of RA is not deemed necessary. Chances are 99 percent of time the starting signal will be clear, as anything in front will likely be well ahead due to station time. And there's no waiting for trains to clear points straight out of the station. The kit was probably installed in case DOO were ever to come to the WCML.

I think a lot of the RA equipment did come with the West Coast upgrade. As the signals were renewed to LED versions and thus the RAs came attached to the new signals.

In the old days most of the intermediate stations dispatched with the guard who used the bell buzzer onboard the MK3 coaches AFAIK. With the exception of one or two of the major stations which have been mentioned.

pt_mad · 6 Jun 2018

godfreycomplex said:
Lancaster; Carlisle; Motherwell; Glasgow Central; Edinburgh Waverley and (I think) Haymarket are RA
Oxenholme; Penrith & Lockerbie are bell-buzzer; as is Warrington Bank Quay (RA equipment wasn't fitted to the signals in the Warrington PSB area for some reason)
Poulton-le-Fylde doesn't have RA; although I believe Blackpool North may do.

Poulton is Voyager stop only so makes sense no need for RA.

Also makes me wonder whether another reason for RA is so the signaller can see when the ready to start has been activated, before the train moves off. And also it will be recorded.

godfreycomplex · 6 Jun 2018

pt_mad said:
Poulton is Voyager stop only so makes sense no need for RA.

Also makes me wonder whether another reason for RA is so the signaller can see when the ready to start has been activated, before the train moves off. And also it will be recorded.

RA indicators not repeated in any signalbox I know of, although their use will be recorded by the interlocking

pt_mad · 6 Jun 2018

godfreycomplex said:
RA indicators not repeated in any signalbox I know of, although their use will be recorded by the interlocking

I think it must on on the WCML because you can ask the signaller to cancel the RA on the signal if dispatch has been aborted and the process needs to be restarted.

I.e. if pass com is activated and the RA has been given. Once the guard has checked things out and reset things staff can ask the signaller to cancel the RA and dispatch can restart.

godfreycomplex · 6 Jun 2018

pt_mad said:
I think it must on on the WCML because you can ask the signaller to cancel the RA on the signal if dispatch has been aborted and the process needs to be restarted.

I.e. if pass com is activated and the RA has been given. Once the guard has checked things out and reset things staff can ask the signaller to cancel the RA and dispatch can restart.

Fair do’s, wasn’t aware of that, on all the ones I know (which aren’t on the WCML to be fair) the signaller simply restores the signal to danger and then after the signal times out and is reset to proceed the process begins anew

pt_mad · 6 Jun 2018

godfreycomplex said:
Fair do’s, wasn’t aware of that, on all the ones I know (which aren’t on the WCML to be fair) the signaller simply restores the signal to danger and then after the signal times out and is reset to proceed the process begins anew

That could be the case then if that's a method of cancelling the RA.

Or it may be that the RA can be cancelled on signals controlled by one of the main computerised signalling centres rather than areas under PSBs.

Can anyone confirm?

Was also thinking on a side note about when LNR roll out their (class 730) 350/2 replacements. If the train is based on the class 345 design then these do not have bodyside dispatch cameras. Instead, the DOO dispatch cameras are fitted on the lineside and the images are transmitted wirelessly into the driver's cab.
Now the WCML and its branches does not have lineside dispatch cameras. So either these Aventra trains are going to have additional dispatch cameras fitted which the existing Aventras don't have, or, they will be guard dispatched as the current arrangements for all LNR stock.
Wonder whether use of the RA could be a possibility for these new LNR WCML trains at stations with staffed platforms and RA equipment.

Domh245 · 6 Jun 2018

pt_mad said:
That could be the case then if that's a method of cancelling the RA.

Or it may be that the RA can be cancelled on signals controlled by one of the main computerised signalling centres rather than areas under PSBs.

Can anyone confirm?

Was also thinking on a side note about when LNR roll out their (class 730) 350/2 replacements. If the train is based on the class 345 design then these do not have bodyside dispatch cameras. Instead, the DOO dispatch cameras are fitted on the lineside and the images are transmitted wirelessly into the driver's cab.
Now the WCML and its branches does not have lineside dispatch cameras. So either these Aventra trains are going to have additional dispatch cameras fitted which the existing Aventras don't have, or, they will be guard dispatched as the current arrangements for all LNR stock.
Wonder whether use of the RA could be a possibility for these new LNR WCML trains at stations with staffed platforms and RA equipment.

I've also only ever heard of cancelling RAs by reverting the signal back to danger - although then the question is how are RAs cancelled on automatic signals - or is that prevented by not having any automatic signals with RA

As for DO cameras, the system in the 345 is non standard and only arises because of the platform edge doors in the crossrail core. Later AVENTRAs (ie the 710s for LO, 720s for GA, amd 701s for SWR) all have conventional bodyside DO cameras. As I understand it there is a reluctance to have more of the 345 style platform mounted equipment because then it becomes Network Rail's responsibility to maintain leaving them liable for delays ($$$) caused by it failing to work - despite the fact that it offers a superior view of the platform train interface IMO.

BestWestern · 6 Jun 2018

Does the signaller actually cancel the RA, or just replace the signal to danger, which of course would remove the RA by default? If there's an issue during dispatch, provided the train hasn't passed the platform starting signal and entered the next section, it's standard stuff to request the signaller to put the road back until all is well. This of course saves delays by preventing the errant train from jamming up the whole station.

What's the full procedure for 390 RA dispatch, I'm curious? Guards takes first tip, closes doors, second tip, closes local and waits while platform staff give the RA? Or no local door procedure at all?

godfreycomplex · 6 Jun 2018

BestWestern said:
Does the signaller actually cancel the RA, or just replace the signal to danger, which of course would remove the RA by default? If there's an issue during dispatch, provided the train hasn't passed the platform starting signal and entered the next section, it's standard stuff to request the signaller to put the road back until all is well. This of course saves delays by preventing the errant train from jamming up the whole station.

What's the full procedure for 390 RA dispatch, I'm curious? Guards takes first tip, closes doors, second tip, closes local and waits while platform staff give the RA? Or no local door procedure at all?

With green flag before closing local, natch, but otherwise yes.
Having fished out photos of a couple of WCML panels I can’t see any kit for specifically cancel an RA, but that’s not to say it doesn’t happen anywhere.

craigybagel · 6 Jun 2018

pt_mad said:
It's probably a blessing in disguise for stations as well as it makes adequate staff ever more important as part of the dispatch process.

I wouldn't say it's much of a blessing to be honest - bearing in mind the reason it's not used at Tamworth and Lichfield (despite the equipment being fitted at those stations) is that they aren't staffed for all services, so as to avoid confusion the guards buzzer is used regardless of whether it was a manner dispatch or self dispatch.
[/QUOTE]

pt_mad said:
Wolverhampton is RA for all passenger trains I believe as of a couple of years ago.

Nope - I can't speak for all TOCs but certainly at my own we still use buzzers at Wolves. Manchester Piccadilly and Birmingham New Street are RA for all services (even ECS) - and until last year Manchester Airport was too (it's gone to the opposite extreme with self dispatch now) but not aware of any others in those parts - and I do sign most of the major stations in the Midlands and up towards Manchester.

Removing my guards hat and replacing it with my old one as a former dispatcher at a busy WCML station - I must say that nobody has ever been able to explain to me why we had to RA a 9 car 390 but a 10 car 221 used guards buzzers - it was just what we were told to do so we did it!

whhistle · 6 Jun 2018

pt_mad said:
I think it must on on the WCML because you can ask the signaller to cancel the RA on the signal if dispatch has been aborted and the process needs to be restarted.

The RA doesn't repeat in the signal box. They have the TRTS (Train Ready To Start) button from the platform to "request" a proceed aspect.

The dispacher can have an assistant who will physically tell the driver to go if the RA has been given but the train doesn't start due to an issue. If it's a bigger issue, the signaller will take the signal back (after confirmation from the driver or more likely platform staff), and thus the RA will disappear anyway.

But usually, once the RA has been given, it's unusual for anything to stop the train leaving.

This is why I don't understand the regulation that the guard has to stay by the door (NOT the rear cab door!), especially on short platforms. They can't exactly look out very well.

pt_mad · 6 Jun 2018

whhistle said:
But usually, once the RA has been given, it's unusual for anything to stop the train leaving.

This is why I don't understand the regulation that the guard has to stay by the door (NOT the rear cab door!), especially on short platforms. They can't exactly look out very well.

Probably be pass comm activation that would stop it after RA, or if someone were to run for the train and make contact and the dispatch staff were able to visually alert the guard to give the driver a stop signal on the buzzer.

Fair point about guard not having to be at the rear. But the same would apply if it were bell buzzer. The issue is more that having a guard within the front 3 coaches on a 9 or 11 car train is not much use if something occurs and the front 3 coaches are out of the station. Even if there is an issue at the 4th coach and 8 coaches of the 11 are still in the station.

One would have thought it would have made more sense to say guard to stand in the rear 4 coaches at all staffed locations would have made more sense. Or even to say guard should aim to locate themselves in the rear 4 where possible. So that if there is an assist or wheelchair user etc then it's not an absolute obligation and there is flexibility.

I suppose the Railways' stance is that once the train safety check has been carried out safely, and the train is moving off, if someone makes contact due to their own actions then the liability lies with the person. As was the case on the Bishops Stortford incident (according to reports linked to on the forum and accounts of posters who followed the case). So perhaps that's why the guard can be situated anywhere even in the front coach. Because reasonable mitigation has been taken with the guard remaining in a position to stop the train, and the rule book puts no more obligation on the TOC than that as regards stopping the train.

Bromley boy · 6 Jun 2018

Domh245 said:
I've also only ever heard of cancelling RAs by reverting the signal back to danger - although then the question is how are RAs cancelled on automatic signals - or is that prevented by not having any automatic signals with RA

I don’t think any platform starters at terminal, bat and flag, CD/RA locations* are automatic. They are all controlled signals. As stated above the road out of a terminal station is only cleared when a TRTS indication is received by the signal box (albeit controlled signals, like autos, automatically revert to danger due to passage of the train over track circuits, thereby cancelling the RA).

At one of my locations the platform has a mid signal and, when driving a short formation, I’ve previously noticed the extreme country end platform RA indication cancelling as the passage of the train has reset the mid platform starter I was dispatched from.

Worrlyingly I had a recent incident where I was given RA before receiving interlock. Cue boshing the doors open again and opening the window. The dispatcher came up and thought the RA indication could be reset without the signal being put back and proceeded to argue with me when I said it couldn’t. He also didn’t seem to know what bat and flag dispatch was, hence I ended up sat there for ten minutes until someone who knew what they were doing was produced.

Genuinely worrying!

*edited due to @TSR’s well observed correction.

tsr · 7 Jun 2018

Bromley boy said:
I don’t think any platform starters are automatic. They are all controlled signals.

I can't think of any automatic signals with an RA indicator, but there are plenty of platform starters at unstaffed platforms which are auto signals!

Bromley boy · 7 Jun 2018

tsr said:
I can't think of any automatic signals with an RA indicator, but there are plenty of platform starters at unstaffed platforms which are auto signals!

Quite right, apologies (and so can I!).

I had meant to refer to platform starters at stations with bat and flag, CD/RA dispatch etc. which depend on a TRTS to get the road. I’ll amend my previous post.

tsr · 7 Jun 2018

Bromley boy said:
Quite right, apologies (and so can I!).

I had meant to refer to platform starters at stations with bat and flag, CD/RA dispatch etc. which depend on a TRTS to get the road. I’ll amend my previous post.

I was being a bit pedantic really.

But now for a great RailUK challenge... first person to name an automatic platform starter signal with an RA indicator!

Bromley boy · 7 Jun 2018

tsr said:
I was being a bit pedantic really.

Not at all. You were quite right to point it out. Clear understanding and all that

.

tsr said:
But now for a great RailUK challenge... first person to name an automatic platform starter signal with an RA indicator!

A (metaphorical) tenner says there isn’t one anywhere.

TEW · 7 Jun 2018

tsr said:
I was being a bit pedantic really.

But now for a great RailUK challenge... first person to name an automatic platform starter signal with an RA indicator!

I can't think of one but I know of a station with an RA indicator but no starting signal whatsoever, which must be pretty unusual. I've no idea how it is reset though.

brick60000 · 7 Jun 2018

tsr said:
I was being a bit pedantic really.

But now for a great RailUK challenge... first person to name an automatic platform starter signal with an RA indicator!

I don't know if it is, but I can't think of any reason why the up platform starter at Sandwell and Dudley (Birmingham platform) would be anything other than an automatic signal? OTT shows this as signal BW4222.

TEW said:
I can't think of one but I know of a station with an RA indicator but no starting signal whatsoever, which must be pretty unusual. I've no idea how it is reset though.

Sandwell and Dudley also used to have these, prior to the recent resignalling. From memory, I think the RA extinguished when the train passed the following signal, but I am not 100% sure?

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