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Welsh Bi-Lingual Signs

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gareth950

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What are the other signs like? "Ticket information", "over the bridge for.." etc, I can cope with place names done in this way but as a rule I do think using two distinct colors is better for both monolingual and bilingual speakers, especially if it's a big chunk of text.
Absolutely all text at the station is in black lettering, with Welsh at the top and English underneath. All in the same font as the station name signs. It's a little confusing when scanning for the right language but a lot better than the previous almost transparent grey for English.
I agree two solid colours would be better.
 
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Hetlana

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Well the new bilingual signs (in Metro colours) that have gone up at Radyr and Llandaff have the Welsh names in black at the top of the sign, with the English in a barely readable light grey underneath.

It wouldn't surprise me if all the branding of the 'Metro' is in Welsh as the main language

Looks very readable to me.

radyr-cardiff-wales-april-2018-260nw-1076211884.jpg

Source

These settlements didn't all exist at that time. Some of them are mining villages which didn't exist before the industrial revolution. And the older settlements - many of them - were places that were built by the Normans or onwards. It's a myth that every settlement that exists in Wales today had Welsh speaking people centuries ago. The reality is - most of them didn't even exist.

Of course there will be many places with real Welsh names. I'm objecting to the pure fabrication of names to suit 20th Century and 21st Century Welsh language board requirements.

Here in Newtown we claim to be the original"Newtown" as it was a settlement built by the Mortimer family after Edward l had foricbly taken control over the cantrefs of Cadewain and Ceri At the end of the 13th Century.

Further back in history the capital of the ancient Welsh Kingdom of Powys was at Wroxeter modern day Shropshire. Many places in west Shropshire have historic Welsh names as they were once Welsh.

The made up by Powys CC Welsh name for the street that joins our is regularly rubbed out.

For those of you who say that bilingual place name signs = imposition of the Welsh Language, and that having Radyr spelt the Welsh way being more visible than spelt the English way, I say this.

IT'S JUST A NAME. THE WELSH NAME IS ONLY ONE LETTER DIFFERENT FROM THE ENGLISH NAME, ANY IDIOT WHO SAW 'RADUR' ON A STATION SIGN WOULD SEE THAT IT MEANT RADYR - YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A GENIOUS TO SEE THAT ABERDYFI = ABERDOVEY OR THAT TYWYN = TOWYN. THESE SIGNS THEREFORE CAUSE NO CONFUSION WHAT'S SO EVER, EVERYONE KNOWS WHAT THEY MEAN, SO WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM????

I do admit that one argument against Welsh Language signs is that they can be confusing for non-Welsh-Speakers, but in this instance, when the two names are only one letter different, it just doesn't apply. What therefore, is your real reason for opposing these signs, come on, tell us.

In fact, I would argue that whenever the Welsh Language placename is perfectly comprehensible to non-Welsh-Speakers, then it's the English sign that's the waste of space and that should not be there.
 

Spartacus

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IT'S JUST A NAME. THE WELSH NAME IS ONLY ONE LETTER DIFFERENT FROM THE ENGLISH NAME, ANY IDIOT WHO SAW 'RADUR' ON A STATION SIGN WOULD SEE THAT IT MEANT RADYR - YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A GENIOUS TO SEE THAT ABERDYFI = ABERDOVEY OR THAT TYWYN = TOWYN. THESE SIGNS THEREFORE CAUSE NO CONFUSION WHAT'S SO EVER, EVERYONE KNOWS WHAT THEY MEAN, SO WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM????

Tell that to those who routinely mix up Caernarfon and Carmarthen, as my wife who's from near the latter will attest. This example isn't helped by the number of alternative spellings. Put Caernarfon and Carnarvon on the same piece of paper and there'll no doubt be those who say they're different places. For me there needs to be clarity and discarding one or the other language except where the names are exactly the same seems pointless, and even if there was exact duplication it wouldn't worry me, it'd be worth it just for the sake of standardisation. I don't think it's unreasonable to imagine that the uninitiated could think that Aberdyfi and Aberdovey are different places and I guess even Tywyn and Towyn might be possible, if only because of how easy it is for non-Welsh speakers to trip up over Welsh pronunciations. There are plenty of places that have very similar names all around Britain (without even considering exact duplications such as Wellington), they're similar enough for people to question it, especially as those who need it the most are a bit out of their element already just by being on a train somewhere they're not familiar with. Those who know could probably get by with no signs at all.

I do think that there should be a clear distinction between how the the two languages are presented, in a similar same manner to how it's usually done in Ireland, otherwise someone might be led to believe that Radur Radyr is the name of that particular station in Radyr, like East Garforth is to Garforth. Admittedly it might be more of an issue closer to borders or ports, but you get my point.
 

unlevel42

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Caernarfon has been legally Caernarfon since 1974, previously the majority used Caernarfon, the confusion came from anglification attempts.
Mixing up Caernarfon with Carmarthen requires 3 things to happen:
1 Incorrectly pronouncing both.
2 Geographical stupidity.
3 Exaggeration.
Of course this would easily solved if Caerfyrddin was used.
 

Phil from Mon

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Yes, and Aberdyfi and Tywyn have been that for similar lengths of time. Is anyone seriously saying we should go back to the days of Dolgelly and Llanelly as well?

Reason for edit: correction of autocorrect that rather spoilt my point!
 
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eMeS

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I'm English, as is my daughter and the father of my granddaughter. My Welsh born granddaughter attended the English speaking school in Aberystwyth, but lives 20 miles away. The LA chose not to pay her (school) bus fares, although they were prepared to pay the fares of her village friends going to the Welsh speaking school in Aberystwyth. Is that discrimination?
 

unlevel42

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I'm English, as is my daughter and the father of my granddaughter. My Welsh born granddaughter attended the English speaking school in Aberystwyth, but lives 20 miles away. The LA chose not to pay her (school) bus fares, although they were prepared to pay the fares of her village friends going to the Welsh speaking school in Aberystwyth. Is that discrimination?
No, and since its about bus travel, has no place on rail forums.
 
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Tell that to those who routinely mix up Caernarfon and Carmarthen... Aberdyfi and Aberdovey ...Tywyn and Towyn.

What about Stanmore and Stratford at opposite ends of the Jubilee Line?

There are plenty of English towns/counties with similar sounding names, do people ever get Essex and Exeter mixed up? What about Richmond in London and Richmond in Yorkshire?

What about people who refer to Aberystwyth as Aber (and end up in Caerphilly) or someone who's not paying attention when using the self service machine and buys a ticket to Aberdeen.
 

Spartacus

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What about Stanmore and Stratford at opposite ends of the Jubilee Line?

There are plenty of English towns/counties with similar sounding names, do people ever get Essex and Exeter mixed up? What about Richmond in London and Richmond in Yorkshire?

What about people who refer to Aberystwyth as Aber (and end up in Caerphilly) or someone who's not paying attention when using the self service machine and buys a ticket to Aberdeen.

Not really sure what your point is?
 

Spartacus

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Caernarfon has been legally Caernarfon since 1974, previously the majority used Caernarfon, the confusion came from anglification attempts.
Mixing up Caernarfon with Carmarthen requires 3 things to happen:
1 Incorrectly pronouncing both.
2 Geographical stupidity.
3 Exaggeration.
Of course this would easily solved if Caerfyrddin was used.

You won’t get any arguement from me on the legal or first point, though stupidity for the second I think is an exaggeration, people often aren’t aware the other exists, they’ve just always thought one was a variation of the other.
 
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I suppose confusion of similar place names could happen anywhere, regardless of language.
In England, we have 2 Swinton's (both with stations), several Leigh's and of Course there's the case of the MP that got Ingleton North Yorkshire mixed up with Ingleton County Durham, despite one being in her constituency. :D
 

Spartacus

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If someone gets Caernarfon and Carmarthen mixed up there’s a problem with the person not the place names nor the Welsh language.

Yes, the person's got it wrong, but it's remarkable how many people that both myself, my wife, and her family have encountered who do it. I also gave examples of places in England to show it isn't just a language thing. What I'm trying to say is that if people can get things mixed up that they really shouldn't get mixed up it's certainly worth putting that extra bit of effort into things that they could more reasonably get mixed up, like when there's one letter difference between names, still have both so that it suits both unless they are exactly the same, then there's no risk of confusion for the sake of a small cost of a larger sign and a few letters.
 

Spartacus

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I suppose confusion of similar place names could happen anywhere, regardless of language.
In England, we have 2 Swinton's (both with stations), several Leigh's and of Course there's the case of the MP that got Ingleton North Yorkshire mixed up with Ingleton County Durham, despite one being in her constituency. :D

Similarly Stamford Bridge in Yorkshire always gets a few people a year expecting to see Chelsea playing (including one who got a taxi from central London! o_O They realised their mistake much late than they really should have), and I would be far from surprised if plenty of people think the famous battle of 1066 took place in what is now present day Fulham :lol:
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Well, WG and Transport for Wales have determined that the new franchise will be branded as:

Cymru a'r Gororau
Wales & Borders

The name links back to the Council of Wales and the Marches which was established at Ludlow (Llwydlo) in 1472 by Edward IV.
https://cy.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyngor_Cymru_a'r_Gororau
I think this will suit us Marchers very well, and not out of place on the Chester-Crewe shuttle.

Picture of a CAF Civity with this branding on page 23 in this:
http://www.keolisamey.cymru/media/1046/ams-wb-overview-presentation.pdf

The new station signage shown in that document has Welsh first and graphically more prominent (Welsh: black, English: grey).
 
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I suppose confusion of similar place names could happen anywhere, regardless of language.
In England, we have 2 Swinton's (both with stations), several Leigh's and of Course there's the case of the MP that got Ingleton North Yorkshire mixed up with Ingleton County Durham, despite one being in her constituency. :D

And let's not the famous real life NRE dialogue: "Can you tell me the time of the next train from Worcester to London please?". "Yes, certainly [checks console], is that from Foregate St., Shrub Hill, or Park?!!" :lol:
 

sbt

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Just jetting by, as someone who, whilst not Welsh, supports the use of Welsh in Wales.

Station confusion is a real thing. I was once, c. 15 years ago, sold a ticket to Kemble that turned out to be for Kendall. Being in a hurry and suffering from Depression at the time I didn't query the huge price and paid up. And also for the replacement ticket for my return journey. I have also had people who were meant to join me at St Margaret's (Herts) end up at St Margaret's (London) and people who were meant to go to a meeting I attended at MOD Abbey Wood (needing Filton Abbey Wood Station) end up at Abbey Wood in London.

So is making the effort to avoid it. The Village formally known as Cranley changed it's name to Cranleigh (IIRC prior to 1900) to avoid problems of confusion between it's station (and, IIRC, Postal Address) and that of Crawley.

And then there is the confusion we get at work with recruits turning up for interview or others for meetings at our HQ at Porton Down rather than where they should be, Portsdown (West)...
 

BestWestern

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Welsh-speaker here. I think Anglophones who complain about the prevalence of Welsh need to get over themselves-- yes, there aren't many Welsh speakers in Cardiff (though there are more than you think), but it is the capital of Wales.

Cardiff. Capital of Wales. Not many Welsh speakers. That says quite a lot, surely?
 
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Teithiwr

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there are more welsh speakers in Cardiff, than every other county in Wales, apart from Gwynedd and Carmarthenshire
 

Envoy

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Around 10% of the population of Cardiff speak Welsh. Many of these are recent incomers from the more sparsely populated west.
 

BestWestern

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A bit like London then, since hardly anybody there seems to speak English.

:)

Of course. But how many of London's non-English speakers are English? Many will be visitors, tourists, students etc, such is the nature of London as a global tourism and employment centre. How many of Cardiff's non-Welsh speakers are Welsh? Most of them!

The interesting issue here is that there appears to be a rather aggressive agenda from the powers that be in Wales to force a language on a nation which, by and large, isn't really interested. What checks and balances are there on those making that decision and their policies? Has there been a referendum, for example, to actually gauge public feeling on the issue? If there really is nothing more pressing to spend all that money on than putting up endless superfluous signage all over the place, then Wales really must be paradise!
 

mmh

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This "the Welsh language is pointless" nonsense was, or should have been, put to rest 25 years ago after the Welsh Language Act of 1993.

I'll never understand quite why some English people get so aeriated by Welsh. Why does it matter to you?
 

Arglwydd Golau

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This "the Welsh language is pointless" nonsense was, or should have been, put to rest 25 years ago after the Welsh Language Act of 1993.

I'll never understand quite why some English people get so aeriated by Welsh. Why does it matter to you?

Exactly!
 

Western Lord

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The only valid reason for bi-lingual signage anywhere is if there are people who only speak the "local" language. I would think that there are no Welsh speakers who do not speak English. The decision to have bi-lingual signage is a political one and has no practical benefit. I doubt that the Welsh government aspires to have a population that only speaks Welsh (though I could be wrong).
 
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