South Wales 'Metro' updates

MarkyT · 4 Jun 2018

B&I said:
If what you say is correct, it sounds like costs will not be much lower from using tram trains compared to conventional HR. The only saving will be 750 v DC electrification compared to 25 kv AC.

Which might be considerable on an old Victorian railway in the light of difficulties experienced by many main line wiring projects.
Additional costs for making the tram-train vehicles 'street legal' are fairly low and mainly revolve around providing brake and turn signals, side skirts and fenders, extra powerful brakes (usually magnetic) and improved all round visibility from the drivers cab.

B&I said:
If it's going to be light rail to the Bay, why not use this added flexibility to have another stop around Callaghan Square for easier transfer from non-Queen Street services at Central (and better access to the metro from the southern part of the city centre, without having to walk to Queen Street) ? And what about an eventual extension of the line from the Bay over that causeway thing to Penarth ?

Good extension ideas for the future there, all possible with tram-train technology. I also like the interchange idea for Callaghan Square. Perhaps linked to the redeveloped south entrance at Central via a covered pedestrian walkway through new developments on the south side of the square.

RailUK Forums

Envoy · 4 Jun 2018

B&I said:
If it's going to be light rail to the Bay, why not use this added flexibility to have another stop around Callaghan Square for easier transfer from non-Queen Street services at Central (and better access to the metro from the southern part of the city centre, without having to walk to Queen Street) ? And what about an eventual extension of the line from the Bay over that causeway thing to Penarth ?

I think that they do plan to have a service from the Bay to Central by coming in across Callaghan Square; I just hope they ‘fly over’ the eastern part so as to avoid the traffic jams. It was the original intention of the Cardiff Bay Development Corporation to remove the railway to Bute Road (Cardiff Bay Station) so as to link the Square with Lloyd George Avenue - hence it looking rather like a side street as its northern end. It is regrettable that office blocks were rammed right against the railway on the north side of Callaghan Square.

To go over the Barrage to Penarth would be difficult because the flip up bridges to allow navigation can remain up for some time. In addition, the hill on the Penarth side is very steep.

In the valleys, I would put the extension from Aberdare to Hirwaun at the top off the list.

krus_aragon · 4 Jun 2018

mallard said:
And that location does seem to match this rendering from the BBC article:

Hm, they keep sneaking more pictures into their article! That image wasn't there this morning.

The location is a match.

B&I · 4 Jun 2018

Envoy said:
I think that they do plan to have a service from the Bay to Central by coming in across Callaghan Square; I just hope they ‘fly over’ the eastern part so as to avoid the traffic jams. It was the original intention of the Cardiff Bay Development Corporation to remove the railway to Bute Road (Cardiff Bay Station) so as to link the Square with Lloyd George Avenue - hence it looking rather like a side street as its northern end. It is regrettable that office blocks were rammed right against the railway on the north side of Callaghan Square.

It is a pity that the space was not left for a new line alongise the existing ones at Central, dedicated at one end to services toward Queen Street, and at the other connecting to the VoG and Radyr line.

James90012 · 4 Jun 2018

krus_aragon said:
As I read it, 6 to the Bay (presumably 3 form each railhead), with the other 6 looping round the Coryton loop and heading back up North.

The numbers don't quite add up on that map. North of Queen Street toward Crwys Road you've got 2tph to Coryton and 6 to Caerphilly, total: 8. South of Cardiff Central toward Grangetown you've got 4tph Penarth, 3tph Barry Island and 3 tph Rhoose and Bridgend, total 9. Okay, there could be one terminator at Central. But when you add in the 6tph from the Valleys to the Flourish (or the other 6tph that go through Queen St and head back North) I can't see how they get a figure of 18tph at Queen Street unless they've dropped the Coryton services!

I'm not sure the junction north of Queen Street - unless some work is proposed - could handle that frequency, i.e. 12tph heading up to Cathays interweaving with what appears to be either 6 or 8 tph towards Rhymney / Coryton. There is however some 'space' to the west of the new platform 5 at Cardiff Queen Street which I suspect could be used to provide a bay platform on the western side, 'platform 6'.

This would then give you:
- 2tph Queen Street to each of Treherbert, Aberdare and Merthyr via Cardiff Central and Danescourt (starting/terminating in P6 at Queen Street)
- 2tph Cardiff Bay to each of Treherbert, Aberdare and Merthyr via Cardiff Queen Street and Cathays, using P5 northbound, P2 Southbound
- 8tph (2tph Coryton, 6tph Caerphilly) P4 Northbound, P3 southbound.

This also gives you the benefit of the Treherbert, Aberdare and Merthyr trains all departing from the same 'island' even if they go different ways to get to Radyr.

This still doesn't give you the 18tph mind.

gareth950 · 4 Jun 2018

I'm wondering if there will be tri-mode trains from Barry still going up the Taff Vale running on batteries, even if only as far as Radyr or Pontypridd.

As even http://www.keolisamey.cymru/news-an...es-and-borders-network-and-south-wales-metro/ is saying that:

"And the link from Penarth, Barry and Bridgend to destinations north of Cardiff Central will be maintained using new tri-mode trains which can run on power from overhead electric cables, batteries and diesel engines."

They are not saying that it's just the Rhymney line that will retain links with Penarth. That could be where 18tph through Queen St is coming from but it's a lot of services to be ramming over Newport Rd bridge without widening it to at least 3 spans.

MarkyT · 4 Jun 2018

gareth950 said:
I'm wondering if there will be tri-mode trains from Barry still going up the Taff Vale running on batteries, even if only as far as Radyr or Pontypridd.

As even http://www.keolisamey.cymru/news-an...es-and-borders-network-and-south-wales-metro/ is saying that:

"And the link from Penarth, Barry and Bridgend to destinations north of Cardiff Central will be maintained using new tri-mode trains which can run on power from overhead electric cables, batteries and diesel engines."

They are not saying that it's just the Rhymney line that will retain links with Penarth. That could be where 18tph through Queen St is coming from but it's a lot of services to be ramming over Newport Rd bridge without widening it to at least 3 spans.

I would have thought it would be sensible for the 'trimodes' to be able to run on DC, perhaps as well as AC, just using batteries normally to be able to 'coast' (under moderate power) through short transitions between the two systems where necessary, without having to fire up the diesels. As I said before, modern traction control systems run natively on DC power at under 1000V, and have a large step down transformer and rectifier to convert from the higher tension AC supply line. It should be fairly trivial to organise a big switch to be able to bypass this step down stage and save cycling the batteries to such an extent. The diesels would be available to cruise on longer non wired segments outside the urban areas.

krus_aragon · 5 Jun 2018

James90012 said:
I'm not sure the junction north of Queen Street - unless some work is proposed - could handle that frequency, i.e. 12tph heading up to Cathays interweaving with what appears to be either 6 or 8 tph towards Rhymney / Coryton. There is however some 'space' to the west of the new platform 5 at Cardiff Queen Street which I suspect could be used to provide a bay platform on the western side, 'platform 6'.

Only 6 of the 12tph heading to Cathays will originate from the Bay (hence having to "cross the throat" at Queen Street). The other six will be joining the Rhymney/Coryton traffic between Central and Queen Street.

CASR was said to deliver up to 16tph through the CDF-CDQ corridor. With many services from Pontypridd going to the Bay instead, by my reckoning there'll only be 14tph going to and from Central. We know that the Bay branch can handle 5tph today, and some double-tracking at the Queen Street end could help things further. So it all revolves around Queen Street's signalling (which I'm not as familiar with as I was, having moved from the area before the rebuild was finished).

PaulHarding150 · 5 Jun 2018

Yesterday’s announcement indicated that the Cardiff Bay line will be extended south by around 300m to terminate at ‘The Florish’

Many new trains/tram-trains will be tri-mode running on diesel, battery and over-head wires.

We’ve also learnt that the tender specified there must be some ‘street running’

That is all I’ve plucked out of yesterday’s news, but previously the following had been mentioned/mooted:

- In January 2018 plans for a ‘Metro Central Transport Hub’ were proposed http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-42689172 which clearly shows a tram type stop at the rear of Cardiff Central on ‘ground level’ (i.e. not level with existing tracks) although that story didn't indicate where trams/train-trams would be coming from or to.

- Plans for a tram style system between Cathays and Cardiff Bay were mentioned http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/ne...9_betraying__39__the_Valleys_over_rail_plans/

- On this forum we dissected plans for the previously mentioned Cathays to Cardiff Bay and the suggestion for on street running through Grangetown to Penarth

- The WG had costed extending the line from Penarth to Forrest Road (but if it was coverted to light rail/a tram)

None of that appears to be in yesterday’s announcement.

Apart from 300m in Cardiff Bay is anyone any clearer about what will happen in Cardiff over the next five years regarding light rail/tram infrastructure?

Domh245 · 5 Jun 2018

In answer, the short length of on-street running is all that is currently planned as a trial with a view to expansion - potentially towards the latter half of the contract, maybe in the next one. All of the things previously mooted were just plans and proposals, it is entirely feasible that during the tendering process TfW/WAG came to the conclusion that they weren't suitable and acted accordingly.

Tumbleweed · 5 Jun 2018

I would have thought that the extension through NW Cardiff to Creigiau and Llantrisant/Beddau would be on the cards, as Aberdare to Hirwaun?

td97 · 5 Jun 2018

The KeolisAmey proposal for the CVL Transformation

Electrification – discontinuous overhead line electrification to 25kV AC with permanently earthed sections around restricted structures, saving 55 interventions e.g. rebuilding bridges/no need for wire in Caerphilly tunnel

WelshBluebird · 5 Jun 2018

Pretty disappointed that the extra valley line services to bring it up to 4 trains per hour will be done by pushing two services an hour over to the bay, missing out central totally. Also looks like the main valleys will lose direct services to Barry, with only Rhymney services going that way. And I really don't think the toilet solutions that have been mentioned are good enough (are toilets really going to available at stations from first till last train?). Also still no mention of through fares from the rest of the UK to Metro stations. But still looks better than what has been rumored. I still question why the secrecy though.

Any ideas where the redoubling and new platforms would be?

Hwnt52 · 5 Jun 2018

WelshBluebird said:
Pretty disappointed that the extra valley line services to bring it up to 4 trains per hour will be done by pushing two services an hour over to the bay, missing out central totally. Also looks like the main valleys will lose direct services to Barry, with only Rhymney services going that way. And I really don't think the toilet solutions that have been mentioned are good enough (are toilets really going to available at stations from first till last train?). But still looks better than what has been rumored. I still question why the secrecy though.

Any ideas where the redoubling and new platforms would be?

To run 4 trains an hour to Merthyr really means doubling the line from Abercynon to ensure the timetable is robust. The one passing loop at Merthyr Vale is not enough. Putting in extra loops at say Pentrebach and Quakers Yard would cause problems because the loops are not equally spaced. Putting loops in between stations would just slow everything down.

Del1977 · 5 Jun 2018

The way this service map is drawn, it seems to imply that Rhymney services will terminate at Cardiff Central and Barry Island/Bridgend via VoG services will originate at Central. It seems to suggest only the 2tph from Caerphilly and 2tph from Coryton will cross to Penarth.

There's 5 trains to Barry anyway on this, but only 4 arriving from Rhymney, so at least one must start at Central, and perhaps, all of them?

MetroCentral

Del1977
5 Jun 2018

Envoy · 5 Jun 2018

Looks a good plan to me although I would liked to have seen more trains on the City Line west. I also wonder exactly how many trains from Barry are proceeding through to the valleys as this is not made clear. It is disappointing that the Vale Coastline via Rhoose is not getting an extra service until 2023. I think that this should have been a priority given the need to boost links with the Airport and the fact that the trains are crowded with locals at peak times.

Further afield, it is a great pity that Caerleon is not getting a station.

Del1977 · 5 Jun 2018

Now that I've had a day to digest this, while the rolling stock is all good news, I can't help but feel it's a little less ambitious than I might have hoped. From looking at the presentation it would appear that the pluses and minuses for the wider Metro area are:

Pros:
New rolling stock,
Electrification,
More trains to the Heads of the Valleys,
Journey time improvements.

Cons:
Few new stations,
No areas are served that were not previously served, asides from a few additional stops in Cardiff's suburbs on the existing lines, and some token street running to penetrate further into Cardiff Bay,
Diversion of services to Cardiff Bay rather than running through to Cardiff Central,
Questions as to whether through services to Barry are maintained,
No improvements to the City Line (makes me wonder if the next phase involves trams, so investment there is deferred),
Nothing for Maesteg and unclear what, if any, additional services will serve intermediate stations between Bridgend and Cardiff Central e.g. Pontyclun. 4tph noted at Bridgend, but doesn't that already include GW, and Swansea-Manchester etc.
By choosing tram trains for Merthyr/Aberdare/Treherbert and EMU hybrids for VoG/Barry/Rhymney they restrict their ability to amend service patterns in the future if needed.

MarkyT · 5 Jun 2018

td97 said:
The KeolisAmey proposal for the CVL Transformation

OK I've got this now. Discontinuous 25kV is the power solution for the whole of the Valleys Central Metro network, where electrified, and whether worked by tram-trains or Trimodes. The trams are also going to be 25kV powered with batteries, so presumably on the street tramway they will have to run under battery, but that will be a comparatively short proportion of the each diagram, at least initially. They should be dual voltage convertible in the future for any more extensive wired street sections, like the Sheffield examples. They're already equipped with the heavy step down transformers so 'just' need the big bypass switch. This also means the trimodes will only need 25kV capability, but with longer unwired sections (particularly on the VoG) they will need diesel as well. I'm disappointed the south Wales Metro DEMUs are not also bi/trimodes as most of these will presumably spend a fair bit of their time on the electrified reliefs between Cardiff and Severn Tunnel Junction. I suppose politically these mustn't have AC capability, despite being DEMUs of a very similar design and manufacture to the trimodes, because that might help make a case for extending the wires west of Cardiff on the main line (which could also used by the 800s let us not forget which must be encouraged to blow as much soot into the air and burn as much fuel oil as possible now DfT have equipped them all with engines). Let us hope Stadler are allowed to at least passively cater for adding pantographs and a main transformer in the future. I'd laugh and laugh if they had to put a great big lump of concrete in the appropriate car to compensate for the missing transformer!

Robertj21a · 5 Jun 2018

gareth950 said:
I don't think we will see any widespread 'tram conversion' of the Valley lines, because as I quoted from Ken Skates statement today:

"The Metro Vehicles will use a technology often referred to as Tram-Train. They will operate under Heavy Rail regulations on conventional railway, but will be capable of use in Light Rail (or Tram) mode for extendibility."

Which suggests that these tram-train Metro vehicles will be running to the exact same regulations on lines via Pontypridd as 150s and Pacers do now, using HR signalling. Which asks the Q why are they bothering with tram-trains on these lines? There's no mention of any LR extensions up the Valleys in today's announcements. The only street running section is in the Bay. Essentially you have tram-trains on these lines 'just in case' there are any on-street extensions in the Valleys in the distant future (maybe in the next post 2033 franchise!)
The only infrastructure differences I think we'll see between the lines via Pontypridd and Caerphilly, is 25 Kv AC for Caerphilly lines and 750v DC for Pontypridd lines.

It's funny how we all look at things differently !

You've looked at all this and then asked '....why are we bothering with tram-trains' ?

I look at this and think '....good heavens, some real common sense, - tram-trains, to give added flexibility for future generations'

gareth950 · 5 Jun 2018

Del1977 said:
The way this service map is drawn, it seems to imply that Rhymney services will terminate at Cardiff Central and Barry Island/Bridgend via VoG services will originate at Central. It seems to suggest only the 2tph from Caerphilly and 2tph from Coryton will cross to Penarth.

There's 5 trains to Barry anyway on this, but only 4 arriving from Rhymney, so at least one must start at Central, and perhaps, all of them?

I see it as:
2tph Penarth - Coryton
2tph Penarth - Caerphilly
4tph Barry - Rhymney
1tph from Bridgend / Barry terminating at Central

As it clearly says on the presentation that all existing links to Central and Queen St will be maintained with passengers not having to change trains to cross Cardiff. Of course passengers that now go from say Barry - Cathays on one train will have to change at Queen St.

Note also it says that 2tph from Pontypridd will go down the City line to Cardiff Central, and then will run straight on to Queen St back up the Valleys. However it doesn't explicitly say whether those tram-trains will call at all stations on the City line, or whether those services will run fast to Central and a separate Central - Radyr shuttle calling all stations will run via the City line.

MarkyT · 5 Jun 2018

Hwnt52 said:
To run 4 trains an hour to Merthyr really means doubling the line from Abercynon to ensure the timetable is robust. The one passing loop at Merthyr Vale is not enough. Putting in extra loops at say Pentrebach and Quakers Yard would cause problems because the loops are not equally spaced. Putting loops in between stations would just slow everything down.

Perhaps not complete doubling, but lengthy new dynamic loops incorporating at least one station and extended through to beyond a calculated passing point, with higher speed turnouts and a little leeway for late running. Existing loops might be improved in in a similar way if they'e in the right place. Planners need to look at performance of the new trains, define what length of turn back layover is appropriate etc to determine where passing places need to be.

Del1977 · 5 Jun 2018

gareth950 said:
I see it as:
2tph Penarth - Coryton
2tph Penarth - Caerphilly
4tph Barry - Rhymney
1tph from Bridgend / Barry terminating at Central

As it clearly says on the presentation that all existing links to Central and Queen St will be maintained with passengers not having to change trains to cross Cardiff. Of course passengers that now go from say Barry - Cathays on one train will have to change at Queen St.

Note also it says that 2tph from Pontypridd will go down the City line to Cardiff Central, and then will run straight on to Queen St back up the Valleys. However it doesn't explicitly say whether those tram-trains will call at all stations on the City line, or whether those services will run fast to Central and a separate Central - Radyr shuttle calling all stations will run via the City line.

Hmm - perhaps you're right. Maybe it is just the map that is misleading. Why not have the thick blue line from Rhymney pass through Central at the same point as the VoG line arrives? All the others match up and can be followed from end to end. The Rhymney/Barry services look like they are separated. At least to me.

And I only just noticed, in the diagram I linked, Barry appears to be getting its own airport, or a bus link to Cardiff Airport? Maybe that symbol should be at Rhoose?

gareth950 · 5 Jun 2018

Del1977 said:
Hmm - perhaps you're right. Maybe it is just the map that is misleading. Why not have the thick blue line from Rhymney pass through Central at the same point as the VoG line arrives? All the others match up and can be followed from end to end. The Rhymney/Barry services look like they are separated. At least to me.

And I only just noticed, in the diagram I linked, Barry appears to be getting its own airport, or a bus link to Cardiff Airport? Maybe that symbol should be at Rhoose?

Carwyn did mention at FMQs this afternoon that there will be a "dedicated bus link to Cardiff Airport no later than January 2024", although I can't remember him specifying whether it will be from Rhoose or Barry.
Although a dedicated bus link operates from Rhoose to the airport already.

50031 · 6 Jun 2018

What about all that money spent on the new bay platform at Pontypridd? No Ponty terminators shown.
Will through services from the mainline still be possible? There have been proposals of through services to Pontypridd in various forms over the last 20 years, e.g to Bristol

John R · 6 Jun 2018

50031 said:
What about all that money spent on the new bay platform at Pontypridd? No Ponty terminators shown.
Will through services from the mainline still be possible? There have been proposals of through services to Pontypridd in various forms over the last 20 years, e.g to Bristol

And the six car platform extensions a few years earlier. Have they ever been used? Even two trams paired up will only be around 80m in length.

krus_aragon · 6 Jun 2018

50031 said:
What about all that money spent on the new bay platform at Pontypridd? No Ponty terminators shown.
Will through services from the mainline still be possible? There have been proposals of through services to Pontypridd in various forms over the last 20 years, e.g to Bristol

Possible, but probably not with the rolling stock decisions made: would you want to run a tram-train through the Severn Tunnel?

Bletchleyite · 6 Jun 2018

krus_aragon said:
Possible, but probably not with the rolling stock decisions made: would you want to run a tram-train through the Severn Tunnel?

Why not?

gareth950 · 6 Jun 2018

50031 said:
What about all that money spent on the new bay platform at Pontypridd? No Ponty terminators shown.
Will through services from the mainline still be possible? There have been proposals of through services to Pontypridd in various forms over the last 20 years, e.g to Bristol

It doesn't look like the Pontypridd bay platform will get any use, with everything terminating at the heads of the valleys. The service pattern outlined is described as all day, every day Monday - Saturday, so I assume that means in the evenings as well.
I still can't quite work out if the Taff Valley will stay HR signal controlled or not. On the one hand in Ken Skates statement on Monday it said that the new tram-trains "will operate under Heavy Rail regulations on conventional railway", but on the other hand KeilosAmey have said they are building a new 'maintenance & control' centre for the Taff Valley. Define 'control'?
To me, it makes the most sense now to transfer all Valley lines signalling operations to the Valley lines control desk at the Network Rail Cardiff control centre. P4 at Central will also now surely become a permanent Valley lines platform as planned by CASR, I fail to see how you'll shove all these new Valleys & Vale of Glamorgan services through just 3 platforms at Central. This may be the thinking in extending P0 for mainline services.

The new turnback platform at Barry isn't planned to see any use either. 6tph can run to Barry now after CASR, but only 5tph are planned. 2tph to Bridgend, 3tph to Barry Island.

John R said:
And the six car platform extensions a few years earlier. Have they ever been used? Even two trams paired up will only be around 80m in length.

Rhymney - Penarth and Treherbert - Central can take 6 cars (6 x 20m). And to my knowledge no, they've never been used.
Rhymney may see some 6 car tri-modes (2 x 3 car trains doubled up) but the majority of the tri-mode fleet will be 4 car.

WelshBluebird · 6 Jun 2018

gareth950 said:
so I assume that means in the evenings as well.

I hope so - would be nice to have the end of 1tph to the valleys in the evenings!

Del1977 · 6 Jun 2018

The bay platform at Pontypridd may see some use in turning around late running services in the event of disruption, particularly given the 12tph frequency.

South Wales 'Metro' updates

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