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Welsh Bi-Lingual Signs

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Deafdoggie

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IT'S JUST A NAME. THE WELSH NAME IS ONLY ONE LETTER DIFFERENT FROM THE ENGLISH NAME, ANY IDIOT WHO SAW 'RADUR' ON A STATION SIGN WOULD SEE THAT IT MEANT RADYR - YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A GENIOUS TO SEE THAT ABERDYFI = ABERDOVEY OR THAT TYWYN = TOWYN. THESE SIGNS THEREFORE CAUSE NO CONFUSION WHAT'S SO EVER, EVERYONE KNOWS WHAT THEY MEAN, SO WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM????

Tell that to National Rail Enquires. Anything to help avoid confusion is welcome. I speak as someone who tried calling to get information on trains from Hayle, but got times of trains from Hale. Very different indeed, As was the fare to Manchester! Anything that eases confusion has to be good, and if that is standardisation that Welsh and English are both printed then that it is what is done.
 
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mmh

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The only valid reason for bi-lingual signage anywhere is if there are people who only speak the "local" language. I would think that there are no Welsh speakers who do not speak English.

There are many people who are more comfortable speaking Welsh than they are English. My uncle's late mother could only speak Welsh, and struggled badly with English. Besides, even if all Welsh speakers were equally fluent and comfortable using either language this idea that they only speak Welsh as some sort of hobby and should just use English instead, in Wales, is remarkably insulting.

The decision to have bi-lingual signage is a political one and has no practical benefit. I doubt that the Welsh government aspires to have a population that only speaks Welsh (though I could be wrong).

There speaks someone with no understanding at all of the history behind this and why it's a very emotive issue that, quite frankly, English people have no place to be making pompous uninformed declarations on.
 

BestWestern

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This "the Welsh language is pointless" nonsense was, or should have been, put to rest 25 years ago after the Welsh Language Act of 1993.

I'll never understand quite why some English people get so aeriated by Welsh. Why does it matter to you?

There is a difference between having an opinion on something and feeling personally affected by it! Here we are again on a discussion forum getting tetchy at people for discussing things! :D

It doesn't bother me overly, but people will often comment on something if they think it daft or don't understand what it's all about. Nothing unusual in that at all. Going to enormous lengths to cater for a langauge that very, very few people use (in Cardiff, etc) is likely to come under that heading for quite a few I would imagine.

On a more practical level, it makes navigating Wales for the uneducated more difficult than it needs to be, which is counter-intuitive in a place with a lively tourist economy. On the railway, relentless automated announcements are doubly relentless when you have to have each one twice. When the non-English version is highly likely to be catering for absolutely nobody on the entire station it doesn't help to make them more tolerable! As somebody said upthread, the inevitable endless Digital Doris auto-drivel on the new Metro stock really is going to be beyond the pale if every announcement plays twice. They really are going to have to sit down and think very carefully about how important it is to some people, because I genuinely don't think people will put up with being announced at non-stop all the way up the Valleys. And then of course, in some people's minds, there's the 'English funding' nest of hornets and how much all those extra signs must cost.... :D
 
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Western Lord

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There are many people who are more comfortable speaking Welsh than they are English. My uncle's late mother could only speak Welsh, and struggled badly with English. Besides, even if all Welsh speakers were equally fluent and comfortable using either language this idea that they only speak Welsh as some sort of hobby and should just use English instead, in Wales, is remarkably insulting.



There speaks someone with no understanding at all of the history behind this and why it's a very emotive issue that, quite frankly, English people have no place to be making pompous uninformed declarations on.
Only an emotive issue with the minority who speak Welsh I would think. I couldn't care less what the Welsh do with their bi-lingual signage (I wonder though what the extra cost of all those bi-lingual road signs is), I am merely pointing out that it is highly unlikely that anybody in Wales would be inconvenienced by signs which were only in English, therefore the decision to have bi-lingual signs is a political/cultural thing, not a practical one.
 

WelshBluebird

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On a more practical level, it makes navigating Wales for the uneducated more difficult than it needs to be

Sorry I can't buy that.
Unless by "uneducated" you mean "can't read" - in which case you probably shouldn't be travelling along in an unfamiliar place relying on station signs anyway!
Seriously, you'd have to either be so inept and thick, or have some kind of disability / issue (that meant you shouldn't be putting yourself in the position of relying on station signs) for bilingual station signs to be a problem like that.

which is counter-intuitive in a place with a lively tourist economy.

Of course, in some parts of Wales the bilingual signs are a tourist attraction in themselves!

As somebody said upthread, the inevitable endless drivel on the new Metro stock really is going to be beyond the pale if every auto announcement plays twice.

Tbh, based on how close some of the stations are in the valleys, even just single language announcements would be a pain in that regard. Also. they don't do all station announcements now as it is, so I am not sure why they would in the future. Probably one announcement whilst leaving / arriving at Cardiff (and one when leaving any other start point) and that would do.
 

BestWestern

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Sorry I can't buy that.
Unless by "uneducated" you mean "can't read" - in which case you probably shouldn't be travelling along in an unfamiliar place relying on station signs anyway!
Seriously, you'd have to either be so inept and thick, or have some kind of disability / issue (that meant you shouldn't be putting yourself in the position of relying on station signs) for bilingual station signs to be a problem like that.



Of course, in some parts of Wales the bilingual signs are a tourist attraction in themselves!



Tbh, based on how close some of the stations are in the valleys, even just single language announcements would be a pain in that regard. Also. they don't do all station announcements now as it is, so I am not sure why they would in the future. Probably one announcement whilst leaving / arriving at Cardiff (and one when leaving any other start point) and that would do.

There is a massive difference between what gets announced on Guard-operated Sprinters and what people have to listen to when the computers take over! As regards the places names, if you spoke neither English nor Welsh I can only imagine it must be a nightmare!
 

Y Ddraig Coch

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There is a difference between having an opinion on something and feeling personally affected by it! Here we are again on a discussion forum getting tetchy at people for discussing things! :D

It doesn't bother me overly, but people will often comment on something if they think it daft or don't understand what it's all about. Nothing unusual in that at all. Going to enormous lengths to cater for a langauge that nobody uses is likely to come under that heading for quite a few I would think. On a more practical level, it makes navigating Wales for the uneducated more difficult than it needs to be, which is counter-intuitive in a place with a lively tourist economy. On the railway, relentless automated announcements are doubly relentless when you have to have each one twice. When the non-English version is highly likely to be catering for absolutely nobody on the entire station it doesn't help to make them more tolerable! As somebody said upthread, the inevitable endless drivel on the new Metro stock really is going to be beyond the pale if every auto announcement plays twice. They really are going to have to sit down and think very carefully about how important it is to some people, because I genuinely don't think people will put up with being announced at non-stop all the way up the Valleys. And then of course, in some people's minds, there's the 'English funding' nest of hornets and how much all those extra signs must cost.... :D


I use the Welsh language on a daily basis with numerous people, I converse in work , in public in shops and out and about in Welsh. To say it is a language nobody uses is absolute rubbish.


And as for saying they will have to think very carefully about putting the metro stops in both languages, they don't have to think at all , it is law that Welsh in Wales is at least equal as the English Language. So there is no thinking needed, it has to be done by law.

I really find it hard to believe that people actually think I shouldn't be able to speak my own language, see signs in my own language or hear announcements in my own language in my own country.

Truly outrageous. There are many other countries in the world where English is spoken by the majority as well as their own language but you wouldn't ask them to only use English? What makes Wales any different?

Welsh here to stay deal with it.
 

BestWestern

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And as for saying they will have to think very carefully about putting the metro stops in both languages, they don't have to think at all , it is law that Welsh in Wales is at least equal as the English Language. So their is no thinking needed it has to be done by law.

That'll be fun, then. Might need a 'quiet coach'! Does Welsh law mandate that English is required, or could they get away with just the Welsh?
 

mmh

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There is a difference between having an opinion on something and feeling personally affected by it! Here we are again on a discussion forum getting tetchy at people for discussing things! :D

You've not been "discussing things" though, you've been making sweeping statements and using confrontational language to make them...

Cardiff. Capital of Wales. Not many Welsh speakers. That says quite a lot, surely?

The interesting issue here is that there appears to be a rather aggressive agenda from the powers that be in Wales to force a language on a nation which, by and large, isn't really interested.

"Aggressive agenda", "force a language on a nation which, by and large, isn't really interested."? No, following the law.

What checks and balances are there on those making that decision and their policies? Has there been a referendum, for example, to actually gauge public feeling on the issue?

Only decades of campaigning to finally have proper equality and legal recognition of Welsh.

If there really is nothing more pressing to spend all that money on than putting up endless superfluous signage all over the place, then Wales really must be paradise!

There's that confrontational language again - "endless superfluous signage".

It doesn't bother me overly, but people will often comment on something if they think it daft or don't understand what it's all about. Nothing unusual in that at all.

"Daft". When boat trains from the Channel ports existed, the rolling stock had interior signs in English, French and German. Was that "daft"? For someone who's not overly bothered by Welsh signage, you seem to have a lot to say about it!

Going to enormous lengths to cater for a langauge that very, very few people use (in Cardiff, etc) is likely to come under that heading for quite a few I would imagine.

A few extra words on a sign is not "enormous lengths". Claiming that "very, very few people use" Welsh is both incorrect and insulting.

On a more practical level, it makes navigating Wales for the uneducated more difficult than it needs to be, which is counter-intuitive in a place with a lively tourist economy.

A bilingual sign really doesn't make it any more difficult to navigate! Are you suggesting monoglots are somehow unable to spot that words are in a language they don't understand and for some bizarre reason try to read them anyway? Wales isn't just a tourist attraction, but when it comes to tourism it having its own language is surely something distinctive and a plus, not a minus.
 

mmh

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There is a massive difference between what gets announced on Guard-operated Sprinters and what people have to listen to when the computers take over! As regards the places names, if you spoke neither English nor Welsh I can only imagine it must be a nightmare!

If you speak neither you'll likely be relying on the, err, signs. Out of interest, how do you cope if you go abroad?
 

WelshBluebird

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There is a massive difference between what gets announced on Guard-operated Sprinters and what people have to listen to when the computers take over! As regards the places names, if you spoke neither English nor Welsh I can only imagine it must be a nightmare!

Well we don't know that yet do we? As I said some of the station gaps are arguably too small for even a full announcement in just one language. So I'd imagine we'll get a full stopping pattern on departure from Cardiff / the heads of the valleys stations, and then a next stop only announcement between each stop.

As regards the places names, if you spoke neither English nor Welsh I can only imagine it must be a nightmare!

Well no different to if you don't speak English in England then!
 

mmh

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Only an emotive issue with the minority who speak Welsh I would think.

Well you'd think wrongly. Plenty of people who aren't fluent in Welsh consider the use of Welsh an important and positive thing.

I couldn't care less what the Welsh do with their bi-lingual signage (I wonder though what the extra cost of all those bi-lingual road signs is), I am merely pointing out that it is highly unlikely that anybody in Wales would be inconvenienced by signs which were only in English, therefore the decision to have bi-lingual signs is a political/cultural thing, not a practical one.

Another person who isn't bothered by seeing Welsh but has a lot to say about it. Interesting.
 

WelshBluebird

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Well you'd think wrongly. Plenty of people who aren't fluent in Welsh consider the use of Welsh an important and positive thing.

Indeed - I can only speak a small number of sentences I just about remember from GCSE Welsh, and don't even live in Wales anymore, but am a huge supporter of the Welsh language and the push in recent years for it to be given equal status with English.
 

PR1Berske

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The design of TfW/W&B/Ca'rG signs in recently published documents looks very smart, quite European. I guess that's only for the Metro though would like to see it rolled out across the network.

(I'm trying to move away from circuitous vitirol towards a national language.)
 

Y Ddraig Coch

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The design of TfW/W&B/Ca'rG signs in recently published documents looks very smart, quite European. I guess that's only for the Metro though would like to see it rolled out across the network.

(I'm trying to move away from circuitous vitirol towards a national language.)


It said in a press release the new livery and TfW logo's will be on ALL new trains.

So I assume all the new trains that come into service not just the Metro.

How long the rest will stay in the ATW green is anyone's guess.
 

BestWestern

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Well no different to if you don't speak English in England then!

Well, yes, except that in England you aren't left wondering why everywhere appears to have two names! Do the Welsh authorities make efforts to promote to foreign visitors their policy of bilingual signage, to assist them in navigating the public transport network and so on? That would of course go some way to negating the issue.
 

WelshBluebird

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Well, yes, except that in England you aren't left wondering why everywhere appears to have two names! Do the Welsh authorities make efforts to promote to foreign visitors their policy of bilingual signage, to assist them in navigating the public transport network and so on? That would of course go some way to negating the issue.

Seriously? You do not need to be able to speak Welsh to know that the second name is the Welsh one - it is pretty damn obvious. I really don't see why you are making it out to be confusing or difficult when it really really isn't.
 

BestWestern

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If you speak neither you'll likely be relying on the, err, signs. Out of interest, how do you cope if you go abroad?

I usually match up place names to maps, literature, and so on. This is usually an easy process, but that's based on places having a single, clearly identifiable name in a single language, which is replicated in whatever guides etc I might be using. I presume, however, that something like a Cardiff city map or guide carries a clear advice panel informing the reader about the non-universal use of a second language?
 

BestWestern

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Seriously? You do not need to be able to speak Welsh to know that the second name is the Welsh one - it is pretty damn obvious. I really don't see why you are making it out to be confusing or difficult when it really really isn't.

Why is it obvious? To somebody who speaks neither Welsh nor English?
 

BestWestern

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You've not been "discussing things" though, you've been making sweeping statements and using confrontational language to make them...

Well, then I can only apologise that the debate has offended you, not the intention.
 

BestWestern

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Well we don't know that yet do we? As I said some of the station gaps are arguably too small for even a full announcement in just one language. So I'd imagine we'll get a full stopping pattern on departure from Cardiff / the heads of the valleys stations, and then a next stop only announcement between each stop.

Well, if the Underground can manage it... What does the legislation say though, that's the overriding factor of course. Is audible as well as visual mandatory?
 

Y Ddraig Coch

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Well, if the Underground can manage it... What does the legislation say though, that's the overriding factor of course. Is audible as well as visual mandatory?

The underground can manage what? All the underground tells you is destination and next stop?
 

WelshBluebird

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Why is it obvious? To somebody who speaks neither Welsh nor English?

Because you have a brain and you can work it out. It really isn't difficult.

I think the best similar example I can think of is in Barcelona. Some places there have bilingual signs in Spanish and Catalan. I cannot speak either. However when I have been to Barcelona, at no time did I assume places had multiple names, or that signs were confusing. I just, correctly, assumed that they were bilingual Spanish and Catalan signs.

Well, if the Underground can manage it... What does the legislation say though, that's the overriding factor of course. Is audible as well as visual mandatory?

The underground just says the destination and the next stop though. So if you have to do that twice (once in English and once in Welsh) that still won't take long. The reason underground announcements can get quite long is because they often list the interchanges and tourist destinations at that station (which really isn't needed, although can be helpful).

As for the legislation, it is simply that Welsh is on an equal level with English and so any information provided in English has to also be provided in Welsh. I would assume that would mean audio announcements in English would have to be matched with them in Welsh too (rather than just providing the Welsh on a poster for example).
 

Y Ddraig Coch

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If Welsh is such an issue for you maybe while looking through your maps and matching up place names you should just skip Wales, everyone else manages and has managed for many years. If more than one language is above you maybe you should not travel outside of England at all.
 

BestWestern

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Because you have a brain and you can work it out. It really isn't difficult.

Well, perhaps, but I have to say I fail to see why it would be obvious to say a Japanese tourist for example, that Caerdydd Canolog means the same thing as Cardiff Central. Why would they know that instinctively? Anyhow, not a massively important debate!
 

BestWestern

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If Welsh is such an issue for you maybe while looking through your maps and matching up place names you should just skip Wales, everyone else manages and has managed for many years. If more than one language is above you maybe you should not travel outside of England at all.

Not an issue at all. It's nice hearing announcements in a second langauge when you're travelling through Wales, certainly makes a change.

Everyone else manages to skip Wales? Bit harsh.
 

BestWestern

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Because you have a brain and you can work it out. It really isn't difficult.

I think the best similar example I can think of is in Barcelona. Some places there have bilingual signs in Spanish and Catalan. I cannot speak either. However when I have been to Barcelona, at no time did I assume places had multiple names, or that signs were confusing. I just, correctly, assumed that they were bilingual Spanish and Catalan signs.



The underground just says the destination and the next stop though. So if you have to do that twice (once in English and once in Welsh) that still won't take long. The reason underground announcements can get quite long is because they often list the interchanges and tourist destinations at that station (which really isn't needed, although can be helpful).

As for the legislation, it is simply that Welsh is on an equal level with English and so any information provided in English has to also be provided in Welsh. I would assume that would mean audio announcements in English would have to be matched with them in Welsh too (rather than just providing the Welsh on a poster for example).

The recent new mainline stock I've travelled on positively immerses the listener in a vast array of talk, about all sorts of things. Transec is in there of course, places with noteworty platform gaps, and so on. It would be refreshing indeed if the SW Metro manages to do without! I'm genuinely curious as to whether it would be permitted to announce in Welsh only?
 

Y Ddraig Coch

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Well, perhaps, but I have to say I fail to see why it would be obvious to say a Japanese tourist for example, that Caerdydd Canolog means the same thing as Cardiff Central. Why would they know that instinctively? Anyhow, not a massively important debate!

Same as when arriving in Ibiza airport I know that where it says Eivissa and Ibiza next to it I can work out one is local for the other even though I can't speak Catalan!! Jesus, you do like to make problems that aren't even there.
 

BestWestern

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Same as when arriving in Ibiza airport I know that where it says Eivissa and Ibiza next to it I can work out one is local for the other even though I can't speak Catalan!! Jesus, you do like to make problems that aren't even there.

I'd imagine most people when arriving at Ibiza airport can barely see anything at all, so well done! :D

It's just an interesting angle (I thought so anyway!), I wonder how many tourists arriving in Wales know of the increasingly widespread use of the Welsh language? I don't doubt that they probably work it out fairly swiftly if they're staying long.
 

Y Ddraig Coch

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As I live in Wales in a hugely touristy area I think I am fairly well qualified to say in all my almost 40 years on this planet and living in the wonderful country that is Wales I have never heard a tourist complain or ask for directions because they couldn't work out a sign that is in two languages.

In fact they tend to embrace it and try and learn how to pronounce the Welsh way of saying signs and place names where they are so they can tell relatives in Welsh when they return home. Which is rather nice.
 
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