Graffiti on trains

furnessvale · 9 Jun 2018

cactustwirly said:
I think this already happens, as it's effectively criminal damage.
The problem is actually catching them, and having enough evidence to prove it was someone.

In the late 1980s/early 1990s I created and led an anti graffiti squad for the BTP in the north west of England. We were so successful that graffiti virtually stopped as a number of offenders were jailed. Naturally the squad was disbanded so the problem returned.

I cannot go into the details of evidence gathering as the methods we used are still relevant today. What I can say is that we did not stand in railway sidings all night on the odd chance that siding could be the "target for tonight".

RailUK Forums

theironroad · 9 Jun 2018

Wivenswold said:
I'm afraid the answer is more complex than "they're louts and they need dealing with". Social and economic conditions usually play a part and it's no coincidence that this sort of criminal damage goes through the roof when there are police cut backs, youth projects get cut and we have a government that they don't identify with. If I had nothing to lose, no prospects of betterment and thought the government were just shovelling wealth into their friends' pockets (they are), I'd probably not give a s*** and want to stick it to the man too.

I'm not saying criminal damage is okay, but the causes go beyond the Daily Mail-style reaction of "hanging's too good for them". Though obviously if the owners of our newspapers paid tax it might pay for a few more bobbies on the beat, but that debate is for another day.

Don't be bringing your sensible analysis here and interrupting the 'they should fry brigade'.

whhistle · 9 Jun 2018

al78 said:
You should also consider the distinct possibility that the burglar/vandal/thief might actually be a lot more handy with their fists than you, no matter how well-aaaaard you think you are, so using physical force against them might put you in hospital, or worse, a coffin, if they are armed.

True, but if so, that means a simple problem of theivery becomes murder - a lot more serious.
While I don't advocate gun use, I should be able to use whatever force I feel is nessessary to protect the house I own. If that means a stab with a knife, that's the risk the thief puts themselves in.

The Albion said:
To be honest, the graffiti looks a lot better than the so called livery. Don't really know why people are offended by it.

My face looks a lot better than yours.
Does that mean I can tattoo yours with no come back?
Didn't think so.

felixthebadger · 9 Jun 2018

What sort of paint do these low lives use? Does it come off easily using the correct solvent?

furnessvale · 9 Jun 2018

felixthebadger said:
What sort of paint do these low lives use? Does it come off easily using the correct solvent?

They use standard aerosol paints which they shoplift. I don't suppose anyone thinks they actually BUY the stuff?

They even have a term for the theft. They call it "racking".

felixthebadger · 9 Jun 2018

furnessvale said:
They use standard aerosol paints which they shoplift. I don't suppose anyone thinks they actually BUY the stuff?

They even have a term for the theft. They call it "racking".

I just wondered because In the old days most car paint was cellulose based but these days cars use water based paints with a lacquer finish coat.

furnessvale · 9 Jun 2018

felixthebadger said:
I just wondered because In the old days most car paint was cellulose based but these days cars use water based paints with a lacquer finish coat.

I suppose what is the easiest to rack would be the answer.

Steve Harris · 9 Jun 2018

broadgage said:
In my view, these vandals get off much too lightly when caught.
They should be required to pay the full costs of rectifying the damage, and a fine. If they claim lack of money, as they probably will, then the court should estimate the costs of the paint used before accepting any such claim.
If they still wont pay, then jail them.

On crime in general, I believe that criminals should have far fewer rights, and that those attempting to detain them should have greater rights.
If some law abiding person catches a burglar, or a graffiti vandal, or a thief, then I believe that they should be allowed use significant force, even at the risk of hurting the offender.

Hmmm..... i dont quite know what to say.

But i will say this...

I used to have the same attitude as you, but after meeting people who came from disadvantaged backgrounds i could see how they ended up turning to crime.
And as police numbers have been drastically cut they have less chance of being caught.

broadgage · 9 Jun 2018

furnessvale said:
They use standard aerosol paints which they shoplift. I don't suppose anyone thinks they actually BUY the stuff?

They even have a term for the theft. They call it "racking".

I must admit that I presumed that the spray paint was purchased.
The recent large scale attack on a Thameslink train must have used dozens of cans, possibly hundreds. I find it a bit surprising, firstly that retailers HAVE that much stock, and secondly that if they do hold such large stocks, that it is not better secured against theft.
The theft of say 100 spray cans would seem to be a loss of several hundred pounds to the shop, and worth going to a fair bit of trouble to prevent the loss.

Whilst spray paint cans have numerous legitimate uses, it is seldom used on a large scale, which is why I find such large scale theft a bit surprising.

Steve Harris · 9 Jun 2018

Wivenswold said:
I'm afraid the answer is more complex than "they're louts and they need dealing with". Social and economic conditions usually play a part and it's no coincidence that this sort of criminal damage goes through the roof when there are police cut backs, youth projects get cut and we have a government that they don't identify with. If I had nothing to lose, no prospects of betterment and thought the government were just shovelling wealth into their friends' pockets (they are), I'd probably not give a s*** and want to stick it to the man too.

I'm not saying criminal damage is okay, but the causes go beyond the Daily Mail-style reaction of "hanging's too good for them". Though obviously if the owners of our newspapers paid tax it might pay for a few more bobbies on the beat, but that debate is for another day.

You have hit the nail squarely on the head Sir.
Now where is that lke button....

Xenophon PCDGS · 9 Jun 2018

Steve Harris said:
You have hit the nail squarely on the head Sir.
Now where is that lke button....

Ike....not heard that since the days of Eisenhower.

Steve Harris · 9 Jun 2018

Paul Sidorczuk said:
Ike....not heard that since the days of Eisenhower.

God. I must be older than i feel/look.

I of course ment like button! Need to resync my fingers to phone, lol

furnessvale · 9 Jun 2018

broadgage said:
I must admit that I presumed that the spray paint was purchased.
The recent large scale attack on a Thameslink train must have used dozens of cans, possibly hundreds. I find it a bit surprising, firstly that retailers HAVE that much stock, and secondly that if they do hold such large stocks, that it is not better secured against theft.
The theft of say 100 spray cans would seem to be a loss of several hundred pounds to the shop, and worth going to a fair bit of trouble to prevent the loss.

Whilst spray paint cans have numerous legitimate uses, it is seldom used on a large scale, which is why I find such large scale theft a bit surprising.

I would find large scale PURCHASE by criminals even more surprising!

jamie_ · 9 Jun 2018

Compared to other European countries we do well, travelled from Bratislava to Berlin yesterday and everything is covered in graffiti: the trains, stations, trackside buildings etc.

At least we try to remove it

Girner · 9 Jun 2018

There's a couple of ways this thing could be stopped. The first is to get rid of the graffiti immediately. They will soon get sick of spending all that time doing it when it will be instantly removed. The other is for Network Rail to offer them legitimate areas they could use their talents. There are various graffiti walls in Glasgow where they are encouraged to express their art and some of it is very good. A more permanent wall of art is more appealing than a train which they know will be cleaned up.
Moaning about it and doing nothing is not an option.

Up_Tilt_390 · 9 Jun 2018

If I'm honest, I too cannot really condone acts of vandalism, but to be fair... I kind of like what they did in a way. No, they shouldn't be trespassing or doing any of these anti-social activities, but if you were to employ them as train painters you might get them off the streets and into work utilising their skills, something most young people have trouble with these days. Not to mention, if they were able to find the time to do this without getting caught they must've done it quickly and discreetly while still having a decent picture, so there's also some degree of skill and efficiency.

My only worry is that it'll never be as simple as that, and you will probably get more people vandalising trains in an attempt just to secure themselves jobs. It'd be a game of guessing whether such a scheme could be done, and also not to mention that if we get lenient on one law some might try their luck with others. So in this case I don't think it'd be worth a risk even trying. It is quite a shame like, but people are unfortunately disappointing creatures in the grand scheme of things.

Rail Blues · 9 Jun 2018

yorkie said:
I don't think these sorts of undesirable individuals should be given the publicity and attention they crave.

I would also like to see punishments that act as a proper deterrent, but sadly I know there is no prospect of that happening with our laws, and legal system, which are woefully inadequate for dealing with anti social gangs.

Steady on. You've gone a full Daily Mail there.

Quite frankly if the train is left unsupervised and unmonitored for long enough to do what looks like several hours worth of work, completely undetected TOC are asking for trouble.

Far more interesting than the boring Thameslink livery. Instead of commissioning some branding clowns a stash of money the next franchise winner should just let these kids loose with a Halfords rattlecan

Up_Tilt_390 · 9 Jun 2018

Rail Blues said:
Quite frankly if the train is left unsupervised and unmonitored for long enough to do what looks like several hours worth of work, completely undetected TOC are asking for trouble.

Now I cannot get behind this type of thinking of at all. A train operator should be able to leave their trains without worry of having them getting vandalised by people breaking the law. To say the TOC are asking for trouble is on the verge of victim blaming, even for such a petty crime in this particular case. It doesn't sound much different than saying anyone who doesn't lock their doors at night or doesn't get an alarm is just asking to be robbed by a gang of burglars (never mind the fact that it is the latter who is in the wrong doing).

furnessvale · 9 Jun 2018

Girner said:
There's a couple of ways this thing could be stopped. The first is to get rid of the graffiti immediately. They will soon get sick of spending all that time doing it when it will be instantly removed. The other is for Network Rail to offer them legitimate areas they could use their talents. There are various graffiti walls in Glasgow where they are encouraged to express their art and some of it is very good. A more permanent wall of art is more appealing than a train which they know will be cleaned up.
Moaning about it and doing nothing is not an option.

The New York subway had a strict policy of not running a damaged train, even if it meant cancelling services. This with other methods, severely reduced the problem. One thing a G writer craves is seeing his work in service so he can photograph it. Take away that pleasure and you are half way there. Overwrite it with a yard brush of white paint if you have to, but don't put the train in service.

Legal walls are a disaster. The incidence of illegal work as you approach a "legal" wall increases exponentially as writers converge on the wall. Besides, where's the "fun" in being legal. Maybe Network Rail could try legal walls a minimum of 50 miles from the nearest railway and see how it goes.

theironroad · 9 Jun 2018

furnessvale said:
The New York subway had a strict policy of not running a damaged train, even if it meant cancelling services. This with other methods, severely reduced the problem. One thing a G writer craves is seeing his work in service so he can photograph it. Take away that pleasure and you are half way there. Overwrite it with a yard brush of white paint if you have to, but don't put the train in service.

Legal walls are a disaster. The incidence of illegal work as you approach a "legal" wall increases exponentially as writers converge on the wall. Besides, where's the "fun" in being legal. Maybe Network Rail could try legal walls a minimum of 50 miles from the nearest railway and see how it goes.

When swt desiros first came out that was pretty much the policy, to remove the train from service. These days, unless it is offensive there is a lot more pressure to keep the train in service as short forming or cancelling leads to many complaints and probably financial penalties. I do think most tocs try to deal with graffiti trains asap these days.

Clip · 9 Jun 2018

2HAP said:
It's a pity they can't tread on the third rail whilst applying their "artwork".

Not much would happen to them if they did really and if there was a need to do so then they would probably use a shroud of some sort

yorkie · 10 Jun 2018

Up_Tilt_390 said:
If I'm honest, I too cannot really condone acts of vandalism, but to be fair... I kind of like what they did in a way. No, they shouldn't be trespassing or doing any of these anti-social activities, but if you were to employ them as train painters you might get them off the streets and into work utilising their skills, something most young people have trouble with these days. Not to mention, if they were able to find the time to do this without getting caught they must've done it quickly and discreetly while still having a decent picture, so there's also some degree of skill and efficiency.

These are NOT the sort of individuals you would be wanting to employ/contract to paint anything. I find it worrying that you "kind of like what they did in a way"

route101 · 10 Jun 2018

Compared to Europe i see hardly see any graffiti on our trains.

Up_Tilt_390 · 10 Jun 2018

yorkie said:
These are NOT the sort of individuals you would be wanting to employ/contract to paint anything. I find it worrying that you "kind of like what they did in a way"

Nothing wrong with appreciating a work of art for what it is. Despite being an act of vandalism and petty anti-social behaviour, they painted a nice picture. That's all I was saying.

bionic · 10 Jun 2018

"Mindless louts" are clearly the perpetrators of this heinous crime. These "disadvantaged" "youths" covering a unit in graffiti seem to invoke more of a reactionary shock horror bring-back-national-service Daily Mail response than Thameslinks abject failure to deliver anything close to a reasonable service. If anything, the fact this is all over the BBC points more towards smoke and mirrors diversionary tactics than it does to a breakdown in society.

My personal view is that graffiti, when done properly, is far more preferable, far more easy on the eye and far less offensive than advertising billboards, trains in corporate "wraps", Piccadilly Circus, Times Square and so forth. I've said this before and I'll say it again... It's a question of money. If I've got money I can pay to put my "tag" up. If I haven't got money and want to put my "tag" up I'm a criminal. Either way, the passenger on the platform has no choice but to look at it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not an advocate of graffiti or trespassing on the railway, but I'm just trying to put it in context. The railway in this country is literally falling apart, run by private companies who don't even appear to be attempting to run a train service, or have any incentive to do so (and why should they? They are already making a fortune by not running trains). If a group of individuals feel the need to converge on some sidings on the south coast and paint Mr Men figures on the side of a 700 then I think, quite frankly, that's the least of anyone's worries other than the poor sod who's going to have to clean it off.

cactustwirly · 10 Jun 2018

furnessvale said:
In the late 1980s/early 1990s I created and led an anti graffiti squad for the BTP in the north west of England. We were so successful that graffiti virtually stopped as a number of offenders were jailed. Naturally the squad was disbanded so the problem returned.

I cannot go into the details of evidence gathering as the methods we used are still relevant today. What I can say is that we did not stand in railway sidings all night on the odd chance that siding could be the "target for tonight".

Well you could look at the chemical composition of the paints, but that won't prove much if the paints are widely available.
But if you're lucky you might get fingerprints & even DNA on discarded paint cans.
However the Forensics costs a lot, and the mo is probably better spent elsewhere.

furnessvale · 10 Jun 2018

cactustwirly said:
Well you could look at the chemical composition of the paints, but that won't prove much if the paints are widely available.
But if you're lucky you might get fingerprints & even DNA on discarded paint cans.
However the Forensics costs a lot, and the mo is probably better spent elsewhere.

We used none of those methods!

One point on the cost of forensics. Just one hit on 4 brand new DVTs at Preston cost the railway £87,000 at 1990ish prices. Worth a bit of forensic lab charges if you got a result.

Clip · 10 Jun 2018

yorkie said:
These are NOT the sort of individuals you would be wanting to employ/contract to paint anything. I find it worrying that you "kind of like what they did in a way"

This is rather worrying that you lump all graffiti artists like this - how would you feel if someone said all rail enthusiasts are spotty nerds who have no social life and are hermits who still live with their mams?

The truth is is that you don't know and are just casting your aspersions on all of them. I know a few lads who started off with walls and trains in the 80s and have now moved on to bigger and better things and actually being commissioned for large murals the world over it are now doing things like record or book art work and so on and so forth so you're just spouting nonsense.

bearhugger · 10 Jun 2018

broadgage said:
I would not encourage anyone to tackle criminals, there can indeed be significant risks.
I do however feel that if anyone DOES decide to tackle the criminals, that the law should be very firmly on their side.

In the particular case of criminal damage to rolling stock, I believe that the railway should be allowed to employ security guards, and that these guards should be allowed to carry weapons. Not firearms, but large sticks, pepper spray, and handcuffs.
Any enquiry into any injury to the criminal should start from the assumption that it was the criminals fault for spray painting, stealing cable, or committing other crime.

Jonfun said:
There's nothing stopping railway security staff carrying handcuffs as it is, they require some, but minimal training to use, are cheap, and when used in appropriate circumstances are generally considered a relatively low "use of force" - but it doesn't really achieve much because what do you do then? You've got you ne'erdowell in cuffs, they'll then either try and escape and injure themselves or use them as a weapon against you, the police will most likely be miles away and unable to respond immediately, so even if the detained person is compliant there's no guarantee of a police response. So you let them out, and then they either go back to attacking you, or escape. And invariably there'll be one person who thinks it's appropriate to "arrest" someone for the heinous crime of not using the ticket machine before they got on the train.

Batons and pepper spray are as much of a risk to the user as the person they're trying to catch and again are only really suitable to use in self defence.

A more visible staff presence - in suitable numbers - is the best way of deterring petty crime. But that won't happen on the railways as it stands due to the prevailing viewpoint that we must cut costs wherever possible.

Pepper spray used in a train carriage? No thanks! As part of voluntary work in a local high street I have seen the effects of pepper spray on both the 'victim'and the person deploying it. Not pleasant, and i wouldn't want the stuff wafting around in a confined space affecting innocent people.

Clip · 10 Jun 2018

Oh and one more thing about 'they are all people you would never want to meet and are ne'er do wells'

Imagine running your own successful record label being an actor in mainstream blockbuster film and on tv and getting an mbe for doing so all from starting out as being a graffiti artist.

And what do you lot have in life that actually matches that?Nothing

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldie

Graffiti on trains

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