Standing Passengers Encouraged To Sit In First Class

the Rat · 9 Jun 2018

Travelling PLY - LSK yesterday on the 15.11 ex-PAD, a very busy service on summer Fridays. It departed full and standing, not unusual, but an announcement was made that there were a number of seats free in First Class and those standiing were invited to take the opportunity to use them.

Nothing was said about whether they would be charged extra or not. As far as I could tell from my own seat in First Class, there weren't many takers, perhaps because they too were unsure whether they would be charged. My assumption from the general tone of the announcement was that they would not be charged, it was being offered to spread the load and ease congestion in the vestibules.

Assuming no excess was going to be charged, is this fair on First Class passengers, some of whom will have paid big money?

Is this now going to be policy on GWR or was it merely a one-off?

RailUK Forums

Master29 · 9 Jun 2018

It is quite common as you point out at this time of year for standing room only from Plymouth into Cornwall but I`ve never been on trains where they`ve declassified first for standing passengers. Might happen quite often in the summer quite regularly. I would be a bit weed off if I`d paid for 1st and any standing pleb class (joke alert) from Plymouth interrupted my 1st class musings.

cf111 · 9 Jun 2018

It's entirely at the Guard's discretion and having been in First when it has been declassified, albeit on East Coast, I personally didn't have an issue because it was a long journey and a long way to stand.

the Rat · 9 Jun 2018

cf111 said:
It's entirely at the Guard's discretion and having been in First when it has been declassified, albeit on East Coast, I personally didn't have an issue because it was a long journey and a long way to stand.

Fair enough. Like you I don't have a problem with this, but it was the first time I've heard such an announcement and there were one or two murmurs of discontent amongst other passengers.

robbeech · 9 Jun 2018

There are 2 ways of doing this. At the guards discretion they can upgrade people to first class. Alternatively they can declassify it. If the latter is done then you should be entitled to the difference between first and standard for this part of the journey. Of course you’re not obliged to claim for this if you don’t feel it necessary.

burneside · 9 Jun 2018

This has happened to me twice while travelling first class from Paddington, on both occasions I claimed and received a refund for the fare difference. The first time it happened I asked the guard about obtaining a refund and he rather sniffily told me I could try to claim if I wanted to, as though compensation would be discretionary. FGW paid up without question when I sent in my tickets as proof of travel.

Adlington · 9 Jun 2018

robbeech said:
At the guards discretion they can upgrade people to first class.

Do you mean "upgrade" as "ask to pay the fare difference"? If so, what's discretionary about it? If a passenger offers to pay the difference, can the guard refuse?

robbeech · 9 Jun 2018

Adlington said:
Do you mean "upgrade" as "ask to pay the fare difference"? If so, what's discretionary about it? If a passenger offers to pay the difference, can the guard refuse?

No, I mean the guard can give a series of free upgrades if they wish.
I don’t think that sitting in first class and awaiting the guard to come around is allowed (with the exception of weekend first)

Adlington · 9 Jun 2018

I've never been offered a free 1st class upgrade (mind you, I never had to stand on a long journey), so I'm not familiar with the procedures.

Does it mean that free upgrades and declassification are two different things? And those with 1st class tickets can claim compensation in the latter case, but not in the former?

Qwerty133 · 9 Jun 2018

Adlington said:
I've never been offered a free 1st class upgrade (mind you, I never had to stand on a long journey), so I'm not familiar with the procedures.

Does it mean that free upgrades and declassification are two different things? And those with 1st class tickets can claim compensation in the latter case, but not in the former?

Declassification means anyone with a standard class ticket may sit in first class as the first class area has become standard class. Free upgrades to first can be given to specific passengers but in this case any passenger not specifically upgraded would have no right to sit in first and first class is seen to remain in place.

Qwerty133 · 9 Jun 2018

robbeech said:
No, I mean the guard can give a series of free upgrades if they wish.
I don’t think that sitting in first class and awaiting the guard to come around is allowed (with the exception of weekend first)

Some TOCs allow standard class passengers wanting to upgrade to sit in first and await the guard. Even where this is not the case passengers may seek out the guard on any service and pay the relevant cost to upgrade their ticket to first class.

Adlington · 9 Jun 2018

Thanks for the explanation.

robbeech said:
I don’t think that sitting in first class and awaiting the guard to come around is allowed (with the exception of weekend first)

One more question: suppose a standing passenger decides (s)he has had enough and is willing to upgrade paying from his/her own pocket/purse. If awaiting the guard to come around is not allowed, what's the correct procedure? Perambulate up and down the crowded train trying to find a guard, pay the excess on the spot and only then make his/her way through the crowd to the 1st class carriage?

ForTheLoveOf · 9 Jun 2018

Adlington said:
Thanks for the explanation.

One more question: suppose a standing passenger decides (s)he has had enough and is willing to upgrade paying from his/her own pocket/purse. If awaiting the guard to come around is not allowed, what's the correct procedure? Perambulate up and down the crowded train trying to find a guard, pay the excess on the spot and only then make his/her way through the crowd to the 1st class carriage?

Exactly. Unless the TOC has made clear that upgrades may be made after sitting down in first class (e.g. by a published policy, or from an announcement/sign), the general rule is that you must always upgrade before sitting down. You run the risk of being charged the full undiscounted fare, or a Penalty Fare, or alternatively being prosecuted under Byelaw 18 or RoRA S5.

robbeech · 9 Jun 2018

Generally speaking it’s usually ok to ask any member of train staff and they’ll let the guard know. This shows your intent to pay. The problems occur where you can travel a significant distance in first without a ticket check. It’s not unknown to get a ticket check between King’s Cross and Peterborough and then nothing until after York, ocassionally not until after a crew change at Newcastle. It would be considered fair to make your intentions to upgrade known.

Envoy · 9 Jun 2018

I can understand 1st class passengers being annoyed if a load of 2nd class people are allowed into their coach at no additional cost. I can also understand 2nd class passengers being annoyed if they are forced to stand for long journeys whilst 1st class coaches are virtually empty - they have after all paid a load of money for a ticket and should reasonably expect a seat. GWR trains generally have two 1st class coaches so surely, it would be reasonable to move the 1st class passengers into one of those coaches (assuming they will all fit) and then use the vacated coach for passengers who are standing in the second class section of the train. One must also assume that room must be kept for any 1st class passengers who join en-route.

the Rat · 9 Jun 2018

Envoy said:
One must also assume that room must be kept for any 1st class passengers who join en-route.

That's something I hadn't considered. You could end up with Standard Class passengers seated in First class whilst a First Class ticket holder, joining the train later, has to stand!

ag51ruk · 9 Jun 2018

robbeech said:
No, I mean the guard can give a series of free upgrades if they wish.
I don’t think that sitting in first class and awaiting the guard to come around is allowed (with the exception of weekend first)

The NRCoC require you to purchase an upgrade before travelling (except where it's advertised that you can pay on the train, like Weekend First) and it can lead to a Penalty Fare in a PF area.

In practice many people just sit in First and wait for a ticket check, then pay the difference. On many shorter journeys, they get away with it as no ticket check is carried out. I see people travelling every day on VTWC routes in the North West in First who only have to pay perhaps one day in five on average.

aylesbury · 9 Jun 2018

I was on a London Midland service to Brum in first class at Rugby first was declassified, so I emailed them my reference for purchase and got a refund. The train was packed but I think many fellow passengers in first did not know they could get a refund no announcements made at all.

boxy321 · 11 Jun 2018

Adlington said:
I've never been offered a free 1st class upgrade (mind you, I never had to stand on a long journey), so I'm not familiar with the procedures.

Does it mean that free upgrades and declassification are two different things? And those with 1st class tickets can claim compensation in the latter case, but not in the former?

Correct. A free upgrade doesn't affect other passengers. Declassification means the catering staff can sit and chat throughout the journey and there'll be no food or drink for anybody. This happened to me from Euston last year and is damn annoying.

boxy321 · 11 Jun 2018

robbeech said:
Generally speaking it’s usually ok to ask any member of train staff and they’ll let the guard know. This shows your intent to pay. The problems occur where you can travel a significant distance in first without a ticket check. It’s not unknown to get a ticket check between King’s Cross and Peterborough and then nothing until after York, ocassionally not until after a crew change at Newcastle. It would be considered fair to make your intentions to upgrade known.

VTWC seem fine no matter what the upgraders do. Some just sit down, some ask the catering crew and just pay during the check. Never seen a problem. However, those wishing to often change there minds when told the eye-watering upgrade price.

DenmarkRail · 11 Jun 2018

boxy321 said:
Correct. A free upgrade doesn't affect other passengers. Declassification means the catering staff can sit and chat throughout the journey and there'll be no food or drink for anybody. This happened to me from Euston last year and is damn annoying.

Go to the shop and show them your ticket and usually they’ll give you drinks there providing it’s a valid first class ticket.

boxy321 · 11 Jun 2018

DenmarkRail said:
Go to the shop and show them your ticket and usually they’ll give you drinks there providing it’s a valid first class ticket.

If a train's that packed they've declassified I imagine a stroll to the shop would be interesting.

DarloRich · 11 Jun 2018

Standing Passengers Encouraged To Sit In First Class - good.

Teflon Lettuce · 11 Jun 2018

a silly question.... if you aren't allowed to sit in First class and await the guard/ train manager to come round before upgrading... is there anything in the rules/ conditions of carriage to stop you from standing in first class with a standard ticket?

221129 · 11 Jun 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
a silly question.... if you aren't allowed to sit in First class and await the guard/ train manager to come round before upgrading... is there anything in the rules/ conditions of carriage to stop you from standing in first class with a standard ticket?

Yes. It's treated the same as sitting. Also covered are vestibules etc.

tsr · 11 Jun 2018

221129 said:
Yes. It's treated the same as sitting. Also covered are vestibules etc.

Good luck enforcing that on routes which are busy enough that people are physically forced into the First Class areas by the sheer force of people boarding behind them (yes, it happens - mainly on GTR, SWR & SE). It has serious potential to cause disorder if enforced. To be fair, on those routes, revenue staff aren’t often going to get through the train anyway!

The whole concept of keeping vestibules and aisles clear is something which adds value on long journeys where people are paying three figures for a single journey, and clear vestibules make for a much nicer environment when boarding, alighting, going for a wander to the buffet, popping to the loo or whatever. On shorter commuter routes, you may as well call it reserved seating and do away with the rule about standing.

paulravuslante · 11 Jun 2018

boxy321 said:
If a train's that packed they've declassified I imagine a stroll to the shop would be interesting.

First class passengers would get the butler to slap the plebs out of the way?

Killingworth · 11 Jun 2018

The practical application of rules and discretion in trains so full the guard/conductor/train manager/ticket inspector/refreshment trolley can't move along the train is fraught with anomalies.

in recent weeks I've travelled between York and Newcastle with both XC and VTEC. At this time of year loadings for Edinburgh are high for both operators.

I've travelled in Corbyn style, sat crammed on the floor in the end vestibule with American tourists totally unseen by conductors. I've stood until offered a seat by a younger traveller.

Last weekend I tried to upgrade to 1st on XC from Sheffield to be told there weren't any seats available, despite only 2 being occupied at that time. Grudgingly I was allowed to do so, being told he'd found one seat left. From Darlington the train filled up totally and I could see his point! At Newcastle I don't know how many must have had to stand going further north but from the crowd waiting to board it would have been a lot.

There is no easy answer to these capacity issues, especially with long distance trains which can be full or empty at different parts of the total journey.

CharlieSpotted · 11 Jun 2018

I think expecting conductors / train managers to make a judgement call to declassify First class is always going to cause inconsistencies and complaints.

For example, I regularly travel on the 08.20 Wolverhampton - Birmingham. This is a very busy West Midlands Railway service consisting of a 350 with a small first class bay in the centre. By about halfway along the route, you will always have plenty of standees in standard. In my years of travelling on this service I've seen first class declassified once... a couple of weeks ago, during half term, when the train was much quieter than usual. Go figure!

Antman · 11 Jun 2018

aylesbury said:
I was on a London Midland service to Brum in first class at Rugby first was declassified, so I emailed them my reference for purchase and got a refund. The train was packed but I think many fellow passengers in first did not know they could get a refund no announcements made at all.

I was on a packed southeastern train recently and the guard announced that standard class ticket holders could use first class and advised anybody who had paid for a first class ticket to apply for a refund.

Standing Passengers Encouraged To Sit In First Class

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