South Wales 'Metro' updates

Del1977 · 10 Jun 2018

Phil from Mon said:
Some thoughts to the Institute of Welsh Affairs from Mark Barry on the future direction of the metro, including frequencies, extensions around the Bay, and cross-Valley links using old alignments

http://www.iwa.wales/click/2018/06/making-metro-really-work-valleys-cardiff/

While I can see the long term benefits of a central Valley rail link, the cost must surely be prohibitive? With the exception of Ystrad Mynach to Nelson, there's no track remaining, so it would all have to be new build, or roads dug up to lay tram rails. What would such a project cost?

A cheaper option to link in towns not currently served by rail, would surely be to link in Treharris/Nelson to the rail network by using the existing link at Ystrad Mynach using the freight-only Dowlais line.

As for Blackwood, perhaps a cheaper option could be to restore the link over the Hengoed viaduct and build a Blackwood "Parkway" adjacent to the A472 at the Southern end.

That would add two spurs from the current Rhymney line granting accessibility to Cardiff.

RailUK Forums

PHILIPE · 10 Jun 2018

Del1977 said:
While I can see the long term benefits of a central Valley rail link, the cost must surely be prohibitive? With the exception of Ystrad Mynach to Nelson, there's no track remaining, so it would all have to be new build, or roads dug up to lay tram rails. What would such a project cost?

A cheaper option to link in towns not currently served by rail, would surely be to link in Treharris/Nelson to the rail network by using the existing link at Ystrad Mynach using the freight-only Dowlais line.

As for Blackwood, perhaps a cheaper option could be to restore the link over the Hengoed viaduct and build a Blackwood "Parkway" adjacent to the A472 at the Southern end.

That would add two spurs from the current Rhymney line granting accessibility to Cardiff.

At the moment there is a bus link running between Blackwood and Ystrad Mynach but not during evenings or Sundays

Del1977 · 10 Jun 2018

Yes, but bus links are meh.

And that bus link is hourly, I think. There's no way I'd get a train from Cardiff to get to Blackwood relying on an hourly bus link.

The 26 bus is half-hourly from Cardiff to Blackwood. That would surely be a better bet.

Of course the reality is, that anyone confronted with using a bus is much more likely to drive.

gareth950 · 10 Jun 2018

Gareth Marston said:
Having been part of the losing team he will have much insight into why MTR didn't win. One suspects they could have focussed too much on plans for the Metro and not enough on the rest of Wales and the Borders. Being fair to everyone and the size of the budget to do what he wants was not going to happen. The best thing he can actually do is to make sure the duplicate motorway around Newport isn't built.

I wil note again the LRT at all costs posters have still not been heard from on this thread since the announcement!

I am not against Professor Barry and his plans, it's fantastic that we've finally got someone with status and power being listened to in Wales who is championing public transport against the road and bypass lobby.

I am one of the most anti-car people you will meet, but his plans seem to completely discount the strengths of the current HR network and he wants trams everywhere, no matter what the price. E.g. his plan detailed in this latest blog still insisting the City line needs to be diverted on-street after Ninian Park, through the City centre to go down to the Bay. By all means look to get a branch off the City line at Fairwater out to the new Plas Dwr housing development, but keep trams off the streets of the centre of Cardiff! You can't have trams and cars and buses and cyclists in city centre Cardiff. It has to be trams and buses with no cars, and no politician would dream of banning cars from central Cardiff, as good as that idea is.

No one with operational experience of the railway in Cardiff would have proposed severing the HR link between Central and Queen St and breaking up a cross-city network between north Cardiff and the Vale, which is what he was proposing when he thought the entire Valleys network north of Queen St would be severed from NR rails and everything from the south west would terminate at Central. Yes services to Pontypridd from the Vale are unfortunately ending but there won't be the mass terminations at Central we were fearing. In fact looking at Keilos Amey's plans only 2tph from the Valleys and 1tph from the Vale will be terminating at Central by 2024!

I like the sound of the heads of the valleys rail link but is it feasible? A radical "step change" in how politicians see the role of public transport in Wales would be needed to make that a reality, and whether politicians match their words of wanting to reduce car dependency with their actions. The test of this will be whether the M4 black route goes ahead.

PHILIPE · 10 Jun 2018

gareth950 said:
I am not against Professor Barry and his plans, it's fantastic that we've finally got someone with status and power being listened to in Wales who is championing public transport against the road and bypass lobby.

I am one of the most anti-car people you will meet, but his plans seem to completely discount the strengths of the current HR network and he wants trams everywhere, no matter what the price. E.g. his plan detailed in this latest blog still insisting the City line needs to be diverted on-street after Ninian Park, through the City centre to go down to the Bay. By all means look to get a branch off the City line at Fairwater out to the new Plas Dwr housing development, but keep trams off the streets of the centre of Cardiff! You can't have trams and cars and buses and cyclists in city centre Cardiff. It has to be trams and buses with no cars, and no politician would dream of banning cars from central Cardiff, as good as that idea is.

No one with operational experience of the railway in Cardiff would have proposed severing the HR link between Central and Queen St and breaking up a cross-city network between north Cardiff and the Vale, which is what he was proposing when he thought the entire Valleys network north of Queen St would be severed from NR rails and everything from the south west would terminate at Central. Yes services to Pontypridd from the Vale are unfortunately ending but there won't be the mass terminations at Central we were fearing. In fact looking at Keilos Amey's plans only 2tph from the Valleys and 1tph from the Vale will be terminating at Central by 2024!

I like the sound of the heads of the valleys rail link but is it feasible? A radical "step change" in how politicians see the role of public transport in Wales would be needed to make that a reality, and whether politicians match their words of wanting to reduce car dependency with their actions. The test of this will be whether the M4 black route goes ahead.

Just 2 tph from the Valleys to Cardiff Central should be a NO GOER, not in the passenger interest at all if they are catching connections and possible laden with luggage

Phil from Mon · 10 Jun 2018

PHILIPE said:
Just 2 tph from the Valleys to Cardiff Central should be a NO GOER, not in the passenger interest at all if they are catching connections and possible laden with luggage

But that is 2 per hour terminating at Central surely. All the valleys routes are postulating 4 per hour axxording to the documents seen so far.

si404 · 10 Jun 2018

Phil from Mon said:
But that is 2 per hour terminating at Central surely. All the valleys routes are postulating 4 per hour axxording to the documents seen so far.

Indeed - with only 6tph of the 12tph going to Flourish, that's 6tph involved with Central somehow and it looks like 2tph each-way (so 4tph) looping around the City Line, and 2tph terminating at Central.

And Rhymney (4tph), Caerphilly (6tph) and Coryton (2tph) will have all their trains go via Central.

PHILIPE · 10 Jun 2018

Phil from Mon said:
But that is 2 per hour terminating at Central surely. All the valleys routes are postulating 4 per hour axxording to the documents seen so far.

Post 2074 by Gareth950 quoting Keilos Amey mentions this. We don't really know enough detail about the actual Metro routes yet

Phil from Mon · 10 Jun 2018

PHILIPE said:
Post 2074 by Gareth950 quoting Keilos Amey mentions this. We don't really know enough detail about the actual Metro routes yet

I’m not sure - I think we do. And those Gareth quotes are only those that will be terminating at Central, most will run through as now. I’m prett6 sure there is nothing (or not much) to worry about capacity-wise.

Dai Corner · 10 Jun 2018

Phil from Mon said:
I’m not sure - I think we do. And those Gareth quotes are only those that will be terminating at Central, most will run through as now. I’m prett6 sure there is nothing (or not much) to worry about capacity-wise.

Here's a map from the presentation (which I believe was) given to AMs last week.

Dai Corner · 10 Jun 2018

I'll attempt to upload a copy of the presentation, it doesn't appear to be online any more.

gareth950 · 10 Jun 2018

PHILIPE said:
Just 2 tph from the Valleys to Cardiff Central should be a NO GOER, not in the passenger interest at all if they are catching connections and possible laden with luggage

By interpreting the maps in the presentation:

Treherbert - Queen St - Flourish (2tph)
Treherbert - Queen St - Central (2tph terminating)

Aberdare - Radyr - City line - Central - Queen St - Cathays - Merthyr (2tph)
Aberdare - Queen St - Flourish (2tph)

Merthyr - Queen St - Central - City line - Radyr - Aberdare (2tph)
Merthyr - Queen St - Flourish (2tph)

Rhymney - Barry Island (3tph) / Bridgend via VoG (1tph)
Caerphilly - Penarth (2tph)
Coryton - Penarth (2tph)
Queen St / Central - Bridgend via VoG (1tph)

So the 2tph terminating at Central are from Treherbert (as now) all other tram-trains going to Central (from Merthyr & Aberdare) circulate through via the City line.

The only uncertainties are whether the City line will have it's own Central - Radyr shuttle (2tph) calling all stations or whether the Aberdare & Merthyr services that divert via the City line will call at all stations, but this would make these services slow and unpopular.
Also whether the extra 1tph from Bridgend via VoG will run through to somewhere or terminate at Central.

Gareth Marston · 10 Jun 2018

gareth950 said:
I am not against Professor Barry and his plans, it's fantastic that we've finally got someone with status and power being listened to in Wales who is championing public transport against the road and bypass lobby.

I am one of the most anti-car people you will meet, but his plans seem to completely discount the strengths of the current HR network and he wants trams everywhere, no matter what the price. E.g. his plan detailed in this latest blog still insisting the City line needs to be diverted on-street after Ninian Park, through the City centre to go down to the Bay. By all means look to get a branch off the City line at Fairwater out to the new Plas Dwr housing development, but keep trams off the streets of the centre of Cardiff! You can't have trams and cars and buses and cyclists in city centre Cardiff. It has to be trams and buses with no cars, and no politician would dream of banning cars from central Cardiff, as good as that idea is.

No one with operational experience of the railway in Cardiff would have proposed severing the HR link between Central and Queen St and breaking up a cross-city network between north Cardiff and the Vale, which is what he was proposing when he thought the entire Valleys network north of Queen St would be severed from NR rails and everything from the south west would terminate at Central. Yes services to Pontypridd from the Vale are unfortunately ending but there won't be the mass terminations at Central we were fearing. In fact looking at Keilos Amey's plans only 2tph from the Valleys and 1tph from the Vale will be terminating at Central by 2024!

I like the sound of the heads of the valleys rail link but is it feasible? A radical "step change" in how politicians see the role of public transport in Wales would be needed to make that a reality, and whether politicians match their words of wanting to reduce car dependency with their actions. The test of this will be whether the M4 black route goes ahead.

That's always been the case talk big on public transport but deliver more road space.

Envoy · 11 Jun 2018

I hope that they don't put ‘The Florish’ as the destination on the trains as most people don’t know where the hell it is - just like they don't where Porth Teigwr is located. ‘Cardiff Bay’ is what the destination should be listed as.

The western section of the City Line could really do with a more frequent calling pattern - only every 30 minutes now and hourly in the evenings and non existent on Sundays.

My understanding is that only 1 train per hour will continue to operate on the Vale of Glam Coast Line for the time being with no increase to 2 an hour until 2023. This is disappointing as it not only serves the Airport via the Rhoose bus link but also provides the quickest way from Barry to west Wales. Perhaps it would be a good idea to send the Cheltenham stopping service this way to Bridgend and therefore make the Airport look more attractive for people in the south Midlands? (Can’t see many of them wanting to go to Maesteg - as at present)!

ATW158Xpress · 11 Jun 2018

Envoy said:
I hope that they don't put ‘The Florish’ as the destination on the trains as most people don’t know where the hell it is - just like they don't where Porth Teigwr is located. ‘Cardiff Bay’ is what the destination should be listed as.

The western section of the City Line could really do with a more frequent calling pattern - only every 30 minutes now and hourly in the evenings and non existent on Sundays.

My understanding is that only 1 train per hour will continue to operate on the Vale of Glam Coast Line for the time being with no increase to 2 an hour until 2023. This is disappointing as it not only serves the Airport via the Rhoose bus link but also provides the quickest way from Barry to west Wales. Perhaps it would be a good idea to send the Cheltenham stopping service this way to Bridgend and therefore make the Airport look more attractive for people in the south Midlands? (Can’t see many of them wanting to go to Maesteg - as at present)!

As suggested in earlier South Wales early colour charts it’s shows a purple line from Maesteg to Ebbw Vale. So it might be possible they extending the Ebbw Vale to Maesteg via Pontyclan and some Cheltenham stoppers to terminate at Bridgend via VOG. This saves platforms at Cardiff Central without clogging up and provides a useful direct service from Newport and towns in South Monmouthshire and Forest of Dean to Barry and Cardiff Airport without changing trains.

Mr Apples · 17 Jun 2018

Apologies if I've missed this, but do we know yet if the trams are going to be street-level, or platform-height boarding? Surely the latter if they're going to share stations with new trains?

gareth950 · 17 Jun 2018

Mr Apples said:
Apologies if I've missed this, but do we know yet if the trams are going to be street-level, or platform-height boarding? Surely the latter if they're going to share stations with new trains?

All of the Stadler City-Link tram-trains will be high floor, current platform height, running as trains on existing HR infrastructure.
There's a short piece on the Valley lines on pg. 66 of the latest issue of RAIL magazine.

ATW158Xpress · 17 Jun 2018

A bit similar to the Manchester Metrolink system with platform height doors with level boarding for accessiblity. Saves having to step onto Pacers especially if you have a prams.

CapitalStar378 · 18 Jun 2018

I'd like to see some definite plans for the Coryton line, the current 2tph service isn't really enticing anyone away from their cars and a P&R facility near the M4 would add plenty of passengers, but it needs to be re-doubled and increased to 4tph. I'm not hopeful of a link to the line just below Taffs Well as has been mooted for decades though.

It was mentioned in Ken Skates' statement about possibly extending the line to a new Velindre hospital but as it doesn't show in the 2023 maps I assume this is even further in the future. I'd like to see some more bold plans but it seems a bit lame in terms of new or improved infrastructure overall.

Gareth Marston · 18 Jun 2018

CapitalStar378 said:
I'd like to see some definite plans for the Coryton line, the current 2tph service isn't really enticing anyone away from their cars and a P&R facility near the M4 would add plenty of passengers, but it needs to be re-doubled and increased to 4tph. I'm not hopeful of a link to the line just below Taffs Well as has been mooted for decades though.

It was mentioned in Ken Skates' statement about possibly extending the line to a new Velindre hospital but as it doesn't show in the 2023 maps I assume this is even further in the future. I'd like to see some more bold plans but it seems a bit lame in terms of new or improved infrastructure overall.

What we have got is a straightforward (discontinuous) 25 KV electrification of the lines north of Queen St with some frequency increases to certain lines. None of the extensions mooted in the South Wales Metro have actually been authorized apart from a play area in the Bay. Given that we've got 4 tph to Rhymney with Flirts i dare say people will soon be asking questions about why the other lines have got CityLink Trams.

The argument will be this is Phase 2 or whatever and all the extensions are penciled in for a later date. (post 2025?) However its clear that the franchise and the Metro have been capped by the budget available which is a figure that will have taken into account the yet to be completed Heads of the Valleys dualling and the duplicate Motorway around Newport.

Dai Corner · 18 Jun 2018

Gareth Marston said:
However its clear that the franchise and the Metro have been capped by the budget available which is a figure that will have taken into account the yet to be completed Heads of the Valleys dualling and the duplicate Motorway around Newport.

Not forgetting the Newtown bypass

Gareth Marston · 18 Jun 2018

Dai Corner said:
Not forgetting the Newtown bypass

Yes we could probably have reopened something with that money for sure.

daodao · 18 Jun 2018

CapitalStar378 said:
I'd like to see some definite plans for the Coryton line, the current 2tph service isn't really enticing anyone away from their cars and a P&R facility near the M4 would add plenty of passengers, but it needs to be re-doubled and increased to 4tph. I'm not hopeful of a link to the line just below Taffs Well as has been mooted for decades though.

It was mentioned in Ken Skates' statement about possibly extending the line to a new Velindre hospital but as it doesn't show in the 2023 maps I assume this is even further in the future. I'd like to see some more bold plans but it seems a bit lame in terms of new or improved infrastructure overall.

The Coryton line is useful for the residents of North Cardiff, but not especially busy; it was only narrowly saved from the Beeching axe. Not all of the track bed is available for redoubling, e.g. at Whitchurch an estate of apartments has been built over most of the former station site (Curlew Close, where I used to live).

krus_aragon · 18 Jun 2018

daodao said:
The Coryton line is useful for the residents of North Cardiff, but not especially busy; it was only narrowly saved from the Beeching axe. Not all of the track bed is available for redoubling, e.g. at Whitchurch an estate of apartments has been built over most of the former station site (Curlew Close, where I used to live).

Silly planning departments.

Ah, well. On-street running down Curlew Close, anyone?

Gareth Marston · 18 Jun 2018

krus_aragon said:
Silly planning departments.

Ah, well. On-street running down Curlew Close, anyone?

fetch the crayons........

Envoy · 18 Jun 2018

The link will show you the area of the missing rail link between Coryton and the Taff Vale Line. It looks to be that it would be relatively easy to rebuild the line through the cutting and under Longwood Drive. A new alignment should be easy to achieve just north of Longwood Drive and then a new bridge over the Taff to reach the Taff Vale Line and so onto Radyr. Hence, Cardiff would have a circular line with Radyr acting as an interchange with the Taff Valley Line and trains to north Cardiff (Coryton Line).
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5214672,-3.2432019,1505m/data=!3m1!1e3

Llanigraham · 18 Jun 2018

Envoy said:
The link will show you the area of the missing rail link between Coryton and the Taff Vale Line. It looks to be that it would be relatively easy to rebuild the line through the cutting and under Longwood Drive. A new alignment should be easy to achieve just north of Longwood Drive and then a new bridge over the Taff to reach the Taff Vale Line and so onto Radyr. Hence, Cardiff would have a circular line with Radyr acting as an interchange with the Taff Valley Line and trains to north Cardiff (Coryton Line).
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5214672,-3.2432019,1505m/data=!3m1!1e3

And did you notice that there was a slightly major road just beyond Longwood Dr that might get in the way?

Gareth Marston · 19 Jun 2018

Article in current RAIL Magazine with Colin Lea Keolis Mobilisation Director. Some snippets coming out not seen elsewhere.

"We've been clever in terms of spending.......We won't need to do Cardiff re signalling......"(becusse of going for 25kv wires and using existing high platforms).

So bespoke Light Rail Catenary would have needed complete re signalling, hacking up Central into a mess and destroyed any through running from the Vale at extra cost!

vikingsmb · 19 Jun 2018

With regards to maesteg line
I don't see why they cant extend the line to caerau (using existing trackbed) and new formation would help the area a bit, the old line was only ripped up in 2004, but would be nice if it could extend to cymmer again. as I'm in the area every day through work.

MarkyT · 20 Jun 2018

Gareth Marston said:
Article in current RAIL Magazine with Colin Lea Keolis Mobilisation Director. Some snippets coming out not seen elsewhere.

"We've been clever in terms of spending.......We won't need to do Cardiff re signalling......"(becusse of going for 25kv wires and using existing high platforms).

So bespoke Light Rail Catenary would have needed complete re signalling, hacking up Central into a mess and destroyed any through running from the Vale at extra cost!

Not neccesarily complete resignalling just because of DC power, as most modern signalling kit is dual immune. There would be issues mixing DC and AC at Cardiff Central though I agree, more to do with the conflicting earthing and traction return paradigms. For safety reasons everything anywhere near AC tracks must be earthed, while with DC, as little earth bonding as possible is preferred to avoid the higher traction return current taking alternative paths back to the substation away from the rails. In mixed areas the safety imperative overrides so comprehensive bonding is a necessity. All possible traction return paths must therefore be designed capable of carrying the higher DC currents safely and some leakage and resultant corrosion damage must be expected and catered for. Mixing systems, even placing them side by side on adjacent tracks, is frowned on but clearly in some places is unavoidable. By going AC Keolis-Amey have avoided these difficulties. Retaining high platforms was the only realistic proposition without very extensive big bang system closures.

South Wales 'Metro' updates

Member

RailUK Forums

Veteran Member

Member

Member

Veteran Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Established Member

Attachments

Established Member

Attachments

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

On Moderation

Established Member

Member

Established Member