OrangeJuice
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I think that may be why they've gone for D trains initially before agreeing with Mersytravel as to who or what provides through services to Liverpool
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Keolis/Amey to take over Wales and Borders
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craigybagel
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Can D trains be fitted with cab doors? Given that part of the conversion process involves removing the existing door and replacing it with lots of metal for crash resistance purposes I'm not so sure. And also, when running on DC power will the D trains be able to match the performance of the new Merseyrail stock? If they can't, and given Merseyrail are planning on improving their timetable thanks to the performance of those units, and given the lack of excess capacity through the tunnels under Liverpool, that would also be a deal breaker.
Surely, given they're already ordering from Stadler, if they wanted trains to run through to Liverpool it would be much more sensible to order more from them, a bi mode version of the new Merseyrail units?
Surely, given they're already ordering from Stadler, if they wanted trains to run through to Liverpool it would be much more sensible to order more from them, a bi mode version of the new Merseyrail units?
Gareth Marston
Established Member
agreed its only going to happen if they have same units as Merseyrail.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I think more likely Merseyrail will take it on long-term. The option for 15 additional Stadler units would potentially be enough to cover this, Skelmersdale/Wigan and Preston through running.
This has probably been mentioned already, apologies if so, but do we know what sort of wiring the Valleys are getting? How extensive and will it be 25kV AC?
tbtc
Veteran Member
Looks like they are putting the Bidston line in the ejector seat, ready for it to be moved to the Merseyside franchise – give it a microfleet so that transfer is a lot simpler – a few years down the line there'll be a follow-on order of 777s, bi-mode technology will be trusted more – why not.
So the Bidston line gets some disposable 230s which can be leased for peanuts, once the 777s are in squadron service and the Powers That Be on Merseyside start coming up with potential uses for the follow-on (that the contract permits), here's a good idea for a handful of such trains (see also Ince, Skelmersdale etc).
Maybe that's me putting 2+2 together the wrong way, but the timescales seem to work - the Bidston line is being kicked down the road just far enough into the medium term for the idea of "230 replacement" to be on the agenda about the same time as "how can we use another dozen 777s", once the timetable improvements on the Bidston line have proven to increase passenger numbers sufficiently and the expense can better be justified (rather than trying to convert things from a low base of an hourly DMU).
krus_aragon
Established Member
25kV, discontinuous wiring to overcome clearance issues cheaply.
Thanks. Better than I'd feared as originally I was fully expecting to have some sort of a trolley wire 1500v DC non-sense. So it's good to see we're getting proper wires even if they're discontinuous.
I guess the tram-trains could be made dual voltage like the Sheffield examples in the future if required for any future 'trolley wire' extensions. I'm sure the batteries will be adequate for the short street extension in the bay, but if any new longer light rail branches are added further up the valleys then this could be an option as I assume 25kV would not be acceptable in a streetside environment. The vehicles already include the high voltage step down equipment.
I've started a thread about Wrexham-Bidston and Merseyrail here -- https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-line-inc-possible-franchise-swap-etc.165699/
Gareth Marston
Established Member
Buts it's the North East Wales Metro haven't you read the Welsh Governments press release?
Gareth Marston
Established Member
56 odd locations primarily Caerphilly Tunnel how many of them would have been wired with no fuss in years gone by?
krus_aragon
Established Member
Buts it's the North East Wales Metro haven't you read the Welsh Governments press release?
TfW aren't nearly that consistent:
TfW: What's Happening in North Wales said:
Neither is Ken Skates in his statement:
Update on the Procurement for the Wales and Borders Rail Service and South Wales Metro said:
Blaenau Ffestiniog in North-East Wales? That's a bit of a stretch!
Gareth Marston
Established Member
Well if we say the word "metro" enough people might believe we've delivered it
All of them of course but then we didn't wire anything for neigh on two decades, forgot how to do it, then in the process of relearning how to do it made it so expensive that it isn't currently affordable to do schemes properly anymore but I fear if we go further down that rabbit hole we'll be fearfully off topic!
My main worry was that they were going to do something stupid with the wiring. Discontinuous is better than nothing and far better than putting up tram wires. Plus, in the future, we can always make it continuous
And when it's realised that 40m tram-trains that offer no increase in seating capacity to the current 2 car 150s, are completely insufficient to meet passenger numbers and the overcrowding compliants continue, Taff Valley routes can get Stadler Flirts as wellAll of them of course but then we didn't wire anything for neigh on two decades, forgot how to do it, then in the process of relearning how to do it made it so expensive that it isn't currently affordable to do schemes properly anymore but I fear if we go further down that rabbit hole we'll be fearfully off topic!
My main worry was that they were going to do something stupid with the wiring. Discontinuous is better than nothing and far better than putting up tram wires. Plus, in the future, we can always make it continuous
(And before people shout 'increased frequency', we all know what happens when you increase frequency but keep the capacity of the trains the same or smaller)
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
And when it's realised that 40m tram-trains that offer no increase in seating capacity to the current 2 car 150s, are completely insufficient to meet passenger numbers and the overcrowding compliants continue, Taff Valley routes can get Stadler Flirts as well
Or more tram trains. They're cheaper so it's much easier to get more of them.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
A 3-hourly non-regular-interval rural stopping service a "Metro"? That's a bit of a stretch!
Actually, I love the idea - if they do it properly - the Swiss rural S-Bahnen don't borrow frequency from the city S-Bahnen, but they do borrow line numbering and consistent stopping patterns, which are an excellent idea to increase usage and understandability. But to get the Conwy Valley really there they will need to move to 2-hourly clockface - which just *might* be achievable using D-trains.
WelshBluebird
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In theory, is it possible that the tram trains can run in tippled up formations if more units were made (rather than the doubled up that some services will be made up of right now)? And how would that impact street running for when that does eventually happen?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I think I'd be more likely to propose an increase from a 15 to a 10 minute frequency base if it was routinely filling double sets all day, or peak extras if it was peak only?
WelshBluebird
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Is that possible considering the infrastructure? The tram trains will be running as trains on the valleys sections, so I'd imagine such a frequency upgrade (considering we are talking 2tph right now) would require a fair amount of upgrades regarding signalling and ensuring everything is double tracked. I guess in theory this could be done as part of the initial upgrades (the redoubling etc that has to happen to allow 4tph) but I doubt it will. And then there's the question of Queen Street and if it can cope with 18tph from Pontypridd (as opposed to the current 6tph, and the proposed 12tph).
Gareth Marston
Established Member
All of them of course but then we didn't wire anything for neigh on two decades, forgot how to do it, then in the process of relearning how to do it made it so expensive that it isn't currently affordable to do schemes properly anymore but I fear if we go further down that rabbit hole we'll be fearfully off topic!
My main worry was that they were going to do something stupid with the wiring. Discontinuous is better than nothing and far better than putting up tram wires. Plus, in the future, we can always make it continuous
And have proper EMU's run on it.
Gareth Marston
Established Member
The presentations said the Stadler units are capable of running doubled up. The presentations also made it clear that every second tram will be doubled up in the peak. So from day one the system will be running at 75% of its potential maximum. I would forget further frequency enhancements the Newport Rd bridge in Cardiff dictates the whole thing. That's why there's been bonkers street running suggestions.
In 2020 the system will have at least the capacity of six 4 car 150 formations per hour from Pontypridd to Cardiff and potentially more if they can find a way to use the Pontypridd turnback. The capacity increase will not match the frequency increase once the LRT vehicles come in.
Robertj21a
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Here we go already !
We can't possibly have 'proper' trams (like most other sensible operations abroad), we have to stick to Heavy Rail, high platform, 'Big Train' infrastructure - because we couldn't possibly imagine allowing them to venture into a street anywhere.......
Oh, and guess what, all our heavy rail infrastructure then needs signalling modifications, upgrades, double tracking etc etc
You really couldn't make this up !
Do you have any idea how complex the HR infrastructure is at Cardiff Central? The only way to have your 'proper trams' up the Valleys would be to completely cut the Valleys off from Cardiff Central, sever cross-city links from the Valleys to Barry, Penarth, the Vale and the western City line, ban freight indefinitely, and instead of tram-trains using the quick HR link between Central and Queen St, divert on-street after Cathays and take 20 minutes or more to get to Central in traffic and spend years digging up the streets of Cardiff for no good reason.
Thankfully those bonkers ideas have been rejected, with the on-street section in the Bay just to please the Minister.
Visiting Cardiff and having the odd trip up the Valleys is not the same as living there and using the network on a daily basis.
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Dai Corner
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Off the top of my head, Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Glasgow and London have all spent millions or even billions building or rebuilding cross-city rail links. We seemed about to spend millions destroying Cardiff's. I'm glad the WG were dissuaded.
Teflon Lettuce
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out of interest... how important is the link between the Valleys lines and Cardiff Central. Surely, with it's proximity to the shops/ offices the busiest place for boarding/ alighting on the Valleys lines is Queen Street? why the fixation that any service into Cardiff must serve Central? Certainly the Bay line doesn't suffer by not going into Central stn
Gareth Marston
Established Member
The 300 metre extension in the bay should be enough to put the frighteners on the politicians about digging the rest of Cardiff City centre up.
There's plenty of other things to do on the Wales and border rail network that are more of a priority than Spending the budget to find that the gas and water mains aren't where you thought they were down St Mary's..........
Del1977
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You cannot not serve the principal railway station in Wales...
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