Del1977
Member
The planned service patterns can remain, and any future, incremental "tram" routes which are in addition to the new service patterns can utilise any street diversions that they may build.
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Keolis/Amey to take over Wales and Borders
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The planned service patterns can remain, and any future, incremental "tram" routes which are in addition to the new service patterns can utilise any street diversions that they may build.
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Gareth Marston
Established Member
Mainline, Millenium Stadium, various office developments to the south of it around Callaghan square, further new build offices to the south east, bus station, main going out street St Mary's, south end of St David's 2 shopping centre.
Teflon Lettuce
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why not? there are plenty of instances in English cities where there are two principle stns in a city without a direct rail link between the 2 stns. What makes Cardiff so special that ALL services must go through one station?
Del1977
Member
Well - is it better to have an interchange station or not? I'd say it is. Most people would think that too...
I was on a train into Central that had come down from the Valleys on Saturday and it was rammed all the way to Central. I thought there must have been a special event on at the stadium but it was just sheer numbers of people going into the centre of Cardiff for shopping / socialising etc on a warm, sunny Saturday.
Most people for the Bay coming from the west know it's only an extra 3 or 4 minutes to Queen St to change. People wanting to go from Central have the BayCar bus.
Oh come on, now you're being silly. Would Network Rail have just spent tens of milions of upgrading the signalling to allow an extra 4tph between Central & Queen St if this link wasn't vital?
Another case of people who never or rarely visit Cardiff, thinking they can authoritatively comment on Cardiff's transport network, when you have no clue.
What about the money spent to replace trains with high floor trams in Manchester?
And what about the closure of Liverpool Central high level, that's not been reinstated.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Though the service (other than the Gateacre loop) was reinstated downstairs at a higher level than before.
Firstly, the proposals as announced and being interpreted here don't envisage ALL valleys services going to Central, but all Valley routes as far as I can tell will retain some services going there, via one route or another. Secondly, not only is Central the most convenient interchange with long distance routes and many buses, it is also the stop served by a number of local east-west services that neither go along the city line to Pontipridd nor serve Queen Street. Thus missing out Central would destroy direct connections between metro and these local lines. Connectivity at Cardiff is long established. It would be foolish to throw that away. To be suceessful railways have to serve muliple markets. Valleys services exist not only to serve shoppers and workers in the centre of the city or the bay.
Teflon Lettuce
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how wrong you are... I've regularly used the train between the Bay and Queen Street and have spent many hrs watching trains come into/out of Queen St. My observations are that a large majority of people coming in from the valleys get off at Queen St and don't continue to Central. Admittedly my observations have only taken place off-peak and weekends....
Well my experience of using the network since childhood is that Central is as busy as Queen St with passengers from the Valleys and the Vale for all the reasons stated by multiple posters so far.
Demand for direct links into Central will only grow over the next 5 + years for these reasons:
Which is why i'm surprised that despite the frequency enhancements up the Taff Valleys from 2023, there will still only be 12tph Queen St - Central when the link can handle 16tph.
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krus_aragon
Established Member
Not north of Pontypridd: no alcohol allowed!
Gareth Marston
Established Member
6 tph for Cathays, 2 tph Coryton, 6 tph for Caerphilly is 14 with provision for. Coryton to go to 4 tph.
Gareth Marston
Established Member
I can remember travelling down from Merthyr when a hoodie type got out some cheap cider accompanying female said exasperatedly " you've only just got out of prison"
The fact that you seem to think effective rapid transit networks can operate without double tracking does lend a certain lack of realism to your contributions
Teflon Lettuce
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although of course Luton had a tram system that was totally single track {with passing places} and was able to operate trams at up to 8 minute intervals...
If you take out the 2tph from Aberdare that will divert at Radyr along the City line into Central, but then go straight on to Queen St and then up to Merthyr, along with Merthyr services going into Central via Queen St and back up to Aberdare via the City line, it's then down to 12tph?
frodshamfella
Established Member
This would be the ultimate goal, and making so much sense.
I'm sure his reference to Chester in the same sentence is more controversial. The English fought wars to keep the Welsh out of Chester and his sentence makes it sound like the English lost one of those wars.
The point I was trying to make was Liverpool Central used to have services to places like London, Harwich, Stockport, Hull etc. and now it's effectively a metro station with only local services to places on the Merseyrail network. Yet @Dai Corner was implying Cardiff is getting something inferior to cities like Manchester and Liverpool by getting a metro system.
krus_aragon
Established Member
True, but Chester being part of the "North-East Wales Metro" (as in the original quote) isn't as controversial: it'd be silly to exclude it!
Well it's nice to see someone other than Merseyrail interested in commuter services in the north west of England
Dai Corner
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I was specifically referring to cross-City services on segregated tracks regardless of whether they were light rail, heavy rail or called a metro.
Perhaps the name is the controversial bit.
Just looking at a map as the crow flies the distance between Holyhead and Llandudno is similar to the distance between Llandudno and Hoylake. If you were to create a North West Wales region and a North East Wales region the River Conwy would seem like a good natural division considering where towns, villages and mountains are located. So while Blaenau Ffestiniog definitely isn't North East Wales, it's less controversial to say a service between Blaenau Ffestiniog and Llandudno serves North East Wales.
Maybe NWNW Metro (where NWNW stands for North Wales & North West) would have a better name, especially if a line completely outside of Wales and one half in and half out are part of the 'metro.'
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Those services were all gone (moved to Lime St) years before Merseyrail was built. When Central closed only the Gateacre shuttle was left - and that was proposed for outright closure for a bit which would have left St Michaels, Aigburth, Cressington and Garston (Low Level - now South Parkway on a slightly moved site) closed too.
FWIW you do have a point, though - the Northern Line isn't weaker just because those on it need about 7 minutes' walk or a quick connection to access Lime St, simply because most journeys are to Liverpool (or Cardiff) and not onwards.
The way the city centre loop works there's a quick and easy connection from Lime Street to Central but the other way around it involves a change and a longer journey.
Not sure what you mean about before Merseyrail was built. Hamilton Square has had electric trains to Liverpool for over 100 years. While I do know what you mean - the 1970s changes/improvements.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There's a quick and easy connection both ways, you just change at a different station (Moorfields or Central) depending on direction.
It isn't set up for internal journeys because almost nobody makes them nor wants to make them - Liverpool city centre is very small and walkable.
Gareth Marston
Established Member
I see they are trotting out the predictable stuff about "made in Wales" and job creation regarding the CAF plant in Newport. My understanding is it will be start to ramp up and assemble the WMT Civity order followed by the Wales and Borders one. But what happens after that last batch of Civitys gets delivered in 2024?
The same line is being used for the building of the Taffs Well depot and 'Metro control centre'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-44440614
(Sion Barry's piece on Wales Online gives Skates' 'made in Wales, jobs for the Valleys' comments in full)
The Central - Lime Street shuffle isn't insurmountable, but re-aligning the Northern Line to platforms at Lime Street low level would have been preferrable to shoving through the old (and now inadequate in capacity) Mersey Railway island platform at Central, which BR / Merseytravel seemed to.feel the need to 'use up', like.my dad with the last fragment of margarine in the tub. I suspect that single-station connections feel handier to the average passenger, even if, in reality, they involve a long walk underground.
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