Train Driving vs Bus Driving

Teflon Lettuce said:

1st of all.... I agree fully that it is a complete and utter mess!

In effect the major problem is that there are brand new bits of route {canal tunnels/ remodelled London Bridge- Blackfriars} so, in part, are the problems due to late running engineering works?

and of course, these new bits of route are at key locations in the network!

this isn't probably the place to ask... but if there are key points where there is a problem why don't the TOC's announce a blockade at weekends with Rail Replacement buses so they can release drivers for intensive route learning?

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No, the infrastructure was there in time. The TOC did not get sufficient drivers either trained or qualified on the relevant rolling stock or routes in time.

Because driver shifts work in such a way that a different set of drivers are working each weekend. You would need at least three weekends of blockades.

Also the the relevant routes all carry trains from other operators. It would be way too disruptive.

Teflon Lettuce said:

I see, so is part of the problem that the rotas aren't one road rotas?

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What is a “one road rota”?

Tomnick said:

What is a “one road rota”?

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sorry... bus terminology... it means a rota that only works one route so for a rail analogy... Bedford- London- Brighton would be one road... and Luton- London- Wimbledon would be considered a seperate road despite having a large common section

Teflon Lettuce said:

sorry... bus terminology... it means a rota that only works one route

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Ta. Again, I can’t speak for Thameslink (although, with the consolidation of routes north/south of the river and presumably the desire to avoid driver changes in the core, I’d guess that they’re moving in that general direction?), but I don’t think that’d work efficiently in a lot of cases. At our place, again, we have a couple of relatively long-distance destinations that are a 6 or 7 hour round trip and one more that’s a bit less, so either would be a short job on its own. There are one or two that just do that, but only because they’re balanced out by longer jobs elsewhere in the links that will do one of those with a shorter bit, on one of the local routes, at the beginning or the end. There are other jobs that stay on local routes, but usually with a mixture of the local routes because presumably that works out more productive than trying to keep on the same route all day. Thus there are three main ‘links’, each of which covers most of the local routes and two of the three longer routes - surely preferable, because it gives a lot more flexibility when trying to cover work either with spare drivers or with rest day work?

Teflon Lettuce said:

sorry... bus terminology... it means a rota that only works one route so for a rail analogy... Bedford- London- Brighton would be one road... and Luton- London- Wimbledon would be considered a seperate road despite having a large common section

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That is what TL is aiming for ultimately. Each depot (or link within a depot) will drive a particular route.

Unfortunately this has meant rejigging existing depots as mentioned above with the result that many drivers have extensive route learning requirements in addition to learning the brand new bits of infrastructure.

This has all been known about for years. In hindsight perhaps a more staggered/phased introduction of services would have been better.

I’m conscious we are going off topic for this thread!

ZackCulross said:

I must say this is stupid.
I am a bus driver currently and have been a tram driver in the past (not exactly the same as railway, but same sort of understanding etc)
and bus driving is much easier in terms off training and stuff, trams where quite complicated to start with.

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I've been reading this with interest, having worked in the bus industry (but not since the mid 1970s). I think we would probably all agree that bus driving is poorly paid and not held in high regard as a job by those outside the industry (or even within it). There is a high turnover of drivers, for a number of reasons, including low pay and consequent need to work overtime, stress caused by traffic and passenger behaviour, and lack of support from management. Train drivers enjoy a much better social status (if I can use that term) and probably don't suffer from these factors, but they have a much longer training period, many more rules and regulations to learn and work more unsocial hours. The consequences of making an error can be catastrophic. Do many drivers leave the industry (as opposed to moving to another TOC or freight operator)?

Teflon Lettuce said:

My questions are:
are the supervisory staff at Thameslink doing this?

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Yes

if they are, are the drivers, in general co-operating with short notice changes/ requests?

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I'm not sure what you mean by 'co-operating' Can you expand that further please ?

Teflon Lettuce said:

I see, so is part of the problem that the rotas aren't one road rotas?

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Part of the problem is the lunacy of working towards a 'one road' rota. Its a stupid approach.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'co-operating' Can you expand that further please?[/QUOTE]

when I took over allocations at the bus company I worked for we had been losing mileage hand over fist because drivers wouldn't change their shifts to help out due to the fact my predecessor had a habit of upsetting the drivers...
Now, without wishing to open wounds,GoVia hasn't had the happiest of industrial relations and I was wondering whether the drivers were bending over backwards to help by being flexible with shift changes... or whether the culture in the canteen is to sit back and leave the management to count the chickens as they come home to roost.

ComUtoR said:

Part of the problem is the lunacy of working towards a 'one road' rota. Its a stupid approach.

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Please explain why you think one-road rotas are lunacy? In my experience in the bus industry they work and they shorten the training period required as each driver only needs training for one route... of course at a later date when the pressure is off said drivers can be sent out learning other routes for operational flexibility.

Translate this to the current TL mess... assuming that the rotas are full and assuming a route learning period of 4 weeks per route. If there were one road rotas, then after 4 weeks training every driver will be productive. However, if every driver has to know every road that the depot works, and the depot works say, 6 roads then the drivers from that depot cannot be fully productive until they have had 24 weeks training...

I would suggest therefore that, certainly in this case, the lack of one road rotas is lunacy!

Teflon Lettuce said:

Please explain why you think one-road rotas are lunacy? In my experience in the bus industry they work and they shorten the training period required as each driver only needs training for one route... of course at a later date when the pressure is off said drivers can be sent out learning other routes for operational flexibility.

Translate this to the current TL mess... assuming that the rotas are full and assuming a route learning period of 4 weeks per route. If there were one road rotas, then after 4 weeks training every driver will be productive. However, if every driver has to know every road that the depot works, and the depot works say, 6 roads then the drivers from that depot cannot be fully productive until they have had 24 weeks training...

I would suggest therefore that, certainly in this case, the lack of one road rotas is lunacy!

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'One road rotas' must remove a lot of flexibility, making it harder to utilise drivers sitting spare, giving fewer options to get someone in on rest day work and seriously limited options during disruption. As I said above, too, it just wouldn't make for efficient rosters at some depots either.

Teflon Lettuce said:

when I took over allocations at the bus company I worked for we had been losing mileage hand over fist because drivers wouldn't change their shifts to help out due to the fact my predecessor had a habit of upsetting the drivers...
Now, without wishing to open wounds,GoVia hasn't had the happiest of industrial relations and I was wondering whether the drivers were bending over backwards to help by being flexible with shift changes... or whether the culture in the canteen is to sit back and leave the management to count the chickens as they come home to roost.

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To deal with this as a whole rather than pick apart various points we really have to understand that there are two sides to this. Employer and Employee. It is the job of the employer to ensure that their business is run correctly and that employees are resourced to cover x, y and z. It is the role of the employee to work to their terms and conditions. There has always been a culture where Management will expect the employee to bend over backwards and work outside of their terms, work overtime, short breaks etc and any issues are the fault of the employee. As a Manager I would have been lynched if I ran my site like that. It was my responsibility to ensure that my roster covered everything sufficiently with enough flexibility for eventualities and it was my responsibility to ensure I had a sufficient establishment to run the site. The buck well and truly stops with Management.

Should the employee bend over backwards is always interesting. They are paid to do a job and should be expected to meet their terms and conditions. I think that we often forget that the employee has a life beyond work. The mantra work to live, not live to work is something we should aspire too and many employees across many sector are their just to earn a crust and nothing more than a McJob. They do not want to spend their lives in servitude to their employer. There are many employees that enjoy their jobs and often go above and beyond. It makes for a good workplace and often flexibility works in both directions.

The culture should never be one of blame. If the employee chooses to work to their terms and nothing more than no complaint can be had. That is exactly what we pay them for. As a Manager I often looked at my role more when things were going wrong. I had to take ownership of that and seek to change or improve. Industrial relations are important and you get back more from your employees when you treat them well.

In terms of the railway and my role as a Driver. We sorta addressed everything by creating terms and conditions with built in flexibility, spare, cover and as required style working and having a terms where you have no choice but to do as your told. From your question posed regarding are Drivers co-operating ? Well they often have zero choice. That has been removed by 'rostering flexibility' It has been removed with a do as your told style of Management. The culture on the railway has always been one of being reliant on goodwill and overtime. Driver gobble up overtime like crazy and it is rare (unicorn poo rare) that jobs go uncovered at my depot and just as rare across my TOC. People complain when overtime 'dries up' In terms of the GTR debacle. Drivers are going well beyond overtime and we are on the ground dealing with a myriad of issues in real time. This is mostly because of who we are. Drivers seem to do well with problem solving and work well under pressure. On a daily basis I see front line staff doing everything they can to get his service running and deal with the nasty and disgraceful behavior some passengers throw at us.

ComUtoR said:

To deal with this as a whole rather than pick apart various points we really have to understand that there are two sides to this. Employer and Employee. It is the job of the employer to ensure that their business is run correctly and that employees are resourced to cover x, y and z. It is the role of the employee to work to their terms and conditions. There has always been a culture where Management will expect the employee to bend over backwards and work outside of their terms, work overtime, short breaks etc and any issues are the fault of the employee. As a Manager I would have been lynched if I ran my site like that. It was my responsibility to ensure that my roster covered everything sufficiently with enough flexibility for eventualities and it was my responsibility to ensure I had a sufficient establishment to run the site. The buck well and truly stops with Management.

Should the employee bend over backwards is always interesting. They are paid to do a job and should be expected to meet their terms and conditions. I think that we often forget that the employee has a life beyond work. The mantra work to live, not live to work is something we should aspire too and many employees across many sector are their just to earn a crust and nothing more than a McJob. They do not want to spend their lives in servitude to their employer. There are many employees that enjoy their jobs and often go above and beyond. It makes for a good workplace and often flexibility works in both directions.

The culture should never be one of blame. If the employee chooses to work to their terms and nothing more than no complaint can be had. That is exactly what we pay them for. As a Manager I often looked at my role more when things were going wrong. I had to take ownership of that and seek to change or improve. Industrial relations are important and you get back more from your employees when you treat them well.

In terms of the railway and my role as a Driver. We sorta addressed everything by creating terms and conditions with built in flexibility, spare, cover and as required style working and having a terms where you have no choice but to do as your told. From your question posed regarding are Drivers co-operating ? Well they often have zero choice. That has been removed by 'rostering flexibility' It has been removed with a do as your told style of Management. The culture on the railway has always been one of being reliant on goodwill and overtime. Driver gobble up overtime like crazy and it is rare (unicorn poo rare) that jobs go uncovered at my depot and just as rare across my TOC. People complain when overtime 'dries up' In terms of the GTR debacle. Drivers are going well beyond overtime and we are on the ground dealing with a myriad of issues in real time. This is mostly because of who we are. Drivers seem to do well with problem solving and work well under pressure. On a daily basis I see front line staff doing everything they can to get his service running and deal with the nasty and disgraceful behavior some passengers throw at us.

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I fully agree with everything you say. At the end of the day I assume that as regards management attitude to staff there are good and bad in the rail industry, just as there are in the bus industry.... there are 2 management styles... "we're in a bit of a pickle... could you do a, b or c?" and "I order you to do a,b,c and if you don't like it there's the door"

Now from what I've read and heard in the past GTR runs much to the latter style rather than the former, so I for one wouldn't blame any driver for saying... "you made the mess you sort it... I'll stick to my own shift thankyou!"

Please explain why you think one-road rotas are lunacy? In my experience in the bus industry they work and they shorten the training period required as each driver only needs training for one route... of course at a later date when the pressure is off said drivers can be sent out learning other routes for operational flexibility.

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Yep they cut down training time. Congratulations on thinking about the short term and not the long term. When you plan for the short term you often find yourself constantly patching and can't push forward. You train for a single route with a plan to cover more training in the future but you are constantly covering training in the short term. When you need to release people for route learning you find that you have no one to cover the traiing as you have no one trained. You are also deferring the budget. You pay short term and then have fully qualified people off training wages and then get trained at a later date on full wage. You also need to cover their work when they are released. It can spiral. This is where you become reliant on goodwill as the needs of the business outweighs the need to train.

A quick example. A link has 60 Drivers and we need to learn a new route. Because we only have a single route you need to now have 60 Drivers released for training. That becomes a heavy burden if you don't have a roster flexible enough or a specific time allocated for training. But why would you ? You have a single route mentality so once trained no additional time is required :/

Like Tomnick states. Flexibility is a massive issue. Anything outside of their booked routes means they cannot work it. Diversionary ? Nope, not trained. New vehicle ? Nope, not trained. Additional work needing covered ? Nope, not trained.

Translate this to the current TL mess... assuming that the rotas are full and assuming a route learning period of 4 weeks per route. If there were one road rotas, then after 4 weeks training every driver will be productive. However, if every driver has to know every road that the depot works, and the depot works say, 6 roads then the drivers from that depot cannot be fully productive until they have had 24 weeks training...

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Whilst correct on a small level there is many other things at play. Getting people out in 4 weeks is great. Cheap and efficient. Then what ? The GTR mess has happened on many levels but with specific regard to a 'one road' roster. It has caused a disgusting mess. There was a drive to get everyone out with minimal training but the lack of flexibility it brings meant that we are in a situation where it takes 3 Drivers to run a single service. The slightest knock and it snaps. The train cannot get diverted. The unit cannot go into a sidings. They need to release others to pilot. You need to cancel numerous services because no-one sings the new route. Remember those 60 Drivers with a single route ? That's 240 weeks of training to cover. Whoops... GTR has just been hit with years worth of training to cover. I know one depot with 20 years of training to cover.

Single route mentality has also caused another problem. You need more and more Drivers to cover the work. It isn't productive. If you need 30 Drivers on one route and 30 Drivers on another you need 60 Drivers. If you trained all Drivers on both routes then the flexibility it brings means you can use that flexibility and hopefully some goodwill to run both routes with less Drivers. with GTR this has lead to a situation on the routes where the depot at one end can only cover their work. When that depot has any issues then the work simply goes uncovered. If you had depots where Drivers had increased route knowledge; they can help out. There is also an issue where there is engineering works and Blackfriars gets closed. Nobody can work the diversionary so the work gets moved to the depot where they have that as their route and they become overworked and do not have sufficient numbers to cover the additional workload. Cross covering is essential for flexibility.

I would suggest therefore that, certainly in this case, the lack of one road rotas is lunacy!

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It's what GTR have introduced. It's what is currently causing many Driver and rostering issues.

The railway in general works because there is flexibility. If I worked from A-B there will be C,D,E,F for diversions and various route permutations. It is required so that trains can run smoothly. If I only sign A-B via C then when D,E and F happen the service needs to get cancelled or terminated early. For the passenger that is unacceptable, and rightly so. That lack of training gets the service running but has no flex for things going wrong.

At GTR the issue of 'what if..' was posed to Management and was met with the typical Management response. By getting the absolute minimum done the lack of foresight created more issues than resolved. On one route the very first day the service was launched there was a need to run into a sidings and back (genuine engineering works) but because the decision was made to not train anyone on that sidings .... you can imagine what happened.

With route learning it needs to reflect the day to day running of the railway. We need to learn diversionary routes, we need to learn turn backs, shunts etc etc because of that need to allow for when things aren't going to plan or need to be amended. Yes it increases training times but long term you will have a whole set of drivers who don't need to learn anything else. There is a reflection of 'single route' mentality and a depot will only sign their routes so there is a limitation in place and a restriction on route learning but it still reflects the day to day.

It's important to remember them more you cut back the less flexibility it has. I've lost track of how many services get cancelled because the Driver doesn't sign the route.

Teflon Lettuce said:

yes and similarly you're travelling at 40mph on your bus on a sunny dry day.... the next time you're on the route there's ice on the road... do you think the bus will react the same way?

do you think that buses have all their controls in the same place? behave in exactly the same way? do you think that an RM will behave like a brand new Merc coach?

yet any call from a bus driver for training will be met by a management reply "you're a professional driver... get on with it"

to give an example, I worked for a company that had a number of vehicles from a certain manufacturer that have retarders that don't work properly if the engine is running hot... unfortunately this type of bus has a habit of running hot... now this is the only type of vehicle I have driven where this happens.... can you imagine my reaction when I crested the top of the hill and tried to brake to hold the buses speed as I came down the other side of the hill. When it happened the first time and I complained the only reply I got to this defect was "well now you know how the bus performs there's no excuse for you having an accident"!

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Hi Teflon
Like a few others here I used to drive buses full time. The main difference is that I still continue to drive albeit 2 days a month. I’ve had my pcv licence over 20 years so I feel qualified to talk about the job. I’ll tell you my immediate thoughts on competing the two. Train driving requires far more concentration. Just taking your eye off the ball at the wrong moment for a few seconds could result in a safety of the line incident. And it could be something minor which in a bus or coach wouldn’t be given a second thought. I’m quite relaxed when driving - it’s the other things - passenger questions, finding a parking spot, loading luggage which are more stressful than the driving task itself. And the vehicle stops accelerating at 62 mph a speed which is half of what I normally achieve on the trains. My managers on the pcv side treat me as they do all the other drivers - expendable and stupid. Even though they are managers I get paid more than them, and they can’t do my job. They wouldn’t even be allowed in the train cab!

I've only following this thread for a few days and have seen good and bad arguments on both sides - and being a former bus driver and now a tram driver I thought I'd voice my opinion...

Bus and trains are two very different form some of transport, but what about Trams? Especially tram-trains of which i am one of the 1st 24 drivers in the country to be. This is going to be vastly new for us - tram driving I would argue is far more difficult than train driving for the simple fact that you are having to look everywhere! Cars overrunning junctions, buses leaving their rear end stuck out in lay-bys, drunken revellers along the busy West Street in Sheffield where they like to play chicken with trams and taxis like to stop in the middle of the road and do a u-turn.

We are going onto Network Rail for the tram-train trial between Sheffield and Rotherham, yet only having 3 trips driving the line and 10 days in total of training and that's it - off we go! Could this be the start of a change on the railways?

We're also not happy at the fact we're only being paid £2k more for operating on Network Rail on the tram-train rota - but that's a different argument for a different day!

And for those unaware:

Trams have a rigorous training scheme that work like the following (for Sheffield):

Stage 1: Application form submitted & vetted

Stage 2: Numerical and Verbal Reasoning tests along with SCATT aptitude and concentration tests

Stage 3: Practical driving assessment on depot, then on full segregated from Nunnery to Meadowhall and back

Stage 4: Interview with HR and a Duty Manager

If successful, you then undergo a mix of classroom and practical training over 12 weeks and then have 3 weeks of mentoring. You also have yearly reviews on performance with Level 4 assessments and covert ride checks.

As the 24 drivers for the tram-train will all be existing tram drivers who have had the experience - we have been told we are only having 3 trips to and from Parkgate and 10 days of classroom training and assessments to go through all NR rules, regulations and signals etc. Going to be an intense few weeks!

As a bus driver who hopes to one day be a train driver it is good to see that there are a few people who have made that transition on this thread. Have any of you got any advice on how to get through the sift or just advice in general?

As for the difficulties in bus driving, I would agree that the driving itself is the easy part, it's the other rubbish that makes the job hard. I really think that the negatives of the job almost outweigh the positives for me, especially with the pay being pretty poor, I hope to use the experience I am gaining to help make the step over to the railway.

As for train driving, the bit that I always imagine to be the hardest is route learning and knowing every inch of a route in fog or the dark as people have mentioned. I do find the idea of having to drive by memory rather than sight quite a challenging prospect but I hope I will overcome it one day. Would you drivers say this is the hardest aspect of your job?

samuel791 said:

We are going onto Network Rail for the tram-train trial between Sheffield and Rotherham, yet only having 3 trips driving the line and 10 days in total of training and that's it - off we go! Could this be the start of a change on the railways?

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I hope that it's not the start of a change! Presumably your rules training is tailored to the short part of the network that you'll be operating over, omitting anything that isn't relevant, but even then ten days sounds far from adequate. In comparison, a drivers' full rules course is more like 10-12 weeks and I can't think of a huge amount that wouldn't apply.

Let's not forget that one of the (if not the) main causes of the Ladbroke Grove accident was inadequate training...

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atraindriver said:

Let's go for a real life example. Just after Virgin's Operation Princess came in in 2002, I was working for Central Trains (who generally didn't believe in diversionary knowledge) and took a train from Derby to Birmingham.

I was stopped by signals at Wichnor Junction and asked if I could divert via Lichfield as the booked route via Tamworth was blocked by a failed freight. No, I couldn't, I didn't sign it.
Stalemate. I couldn't go forward booked route because it was blocked. I couldn't take the diversionary route because I hadn't been trained on it.

Behind my train were two Virgin XCs which could go via Lichfield but couldn't get past me. Then another CT unit (which probably couldn't divert), and eventually another VXC.
We ended up with a total of five trains stood because I didn't have diversionary route knowledge, and when the paperwork came out later a total of over 12,000 delay minutes which wouldn't have occurred had I been trained on that alternate route.

That's why one route rotas aren't a good idea on the railway.

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Sounds like you were just being militant to me, after all, do you *really* need route knowledge or are you just being awkward at the request of your union?...

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To be fair, that's the sort of case that makes me think we need some blanket exception to allow drivers to proceed on visual authority, following all signals, at a limit of something like 10mph on any line (and yes, I realise there's much more to route knowledge that those that directly affect normal operation of the train). It'll still massively delay everything, but at least it keeps things moving.

atraindriver said:

Awkward, me? As if anyone who knew me would ever accuse me of that!

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Someone could have supplied a pilotman, but how long would that have taken?

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atraindriver said:

Let's go for a real life example. Just after Virgin's Operation Princess came in in 2002, I was working for Central Trains (who generally didn't believe in diversionary knowledge) and took a train from Derby to Birmingham.

I was stopped by signals at Wichnor Junction and asked if I could divert via Lichfield as the booked route via Tamworth was blocked by a failed freight. No, I couldn't, I didn't sign it.
Stalemate. I couldn't go forward booked route because it was blocked. I couldn't take the diversionary route because I hadn't been trained on it.

Behind my train were two Virgin XCs which could go via Lichfield but couldn't get past me. Then another CT unit (which probably couldn't divert), and eventually another VXC.
We ended up with a total of five trains stood because I didn't have diversionary route knowledge, and when the paperwork came out later a total of over 12,000 delay minutes which wouldn't have occurred had I been trained on that alternate route.

That's why one route rotas aren't a good idea on the railway.

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strangely enough, despite what has been said about the differences between driving trains and buses, I have been in similar situations on my bus... road blocked ahead... policeman {or more likely these days a PCSO} comes up to the vehicle and says "you'll have to go down there mate" pointing at a narrow side road that I've never gone down... my response is always... sorry, don't know if it's safe for me to go that way, or even if I will be able to get through..

gsnedders said:

To be fair, that's the sort of case that makes me think we need some blanket exception to allow drivers to proceed on visual authority, following all signals, at a limit of something like 10mph on any line (and yes, I realise there's much more to route knowledge that those that directly affect normal operation of the train). It'll still massively delay everything, but at least it keeps things moving.

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And if this isn't okay for some reason, surely moving forward at walking speed far enough to clear the signal/overlap is...

That the rules don't permit it is daft. If the rules were changed delays would be avoided, and there would be negligible additional risk

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geoffk said:

Someone could have supplied a pilotman, but how long would that have taken?

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What possible use would a Pilotman be? Would a Route Conductor not have been more helpful..?

gsnedders said:

To be fair, that's the sort of case that makes me think we need some blanket exception to allow drivers to proceed on visual authority, following all signals, at a limit of something like 10mph on any line

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What happens if the Driver has a SPAD ? Who takes responsibility ?
What if there is a fire on the unit and you need to evacuate or get the line(s) blocked ?
How do you know if the next signal is set for the route correctly ?
How do you know if the route is cleared for your traction ?
etc.
etc.

Or if you’re a juicer and they route you to diesel land

Question on this relating to legal driving hours - a bus driver on service work can drive for up to 5 hours 30 mins on domestic regulations without a break (there are different permutations but i'm just looking at it from a simplistic view), what are the regulations regarding how long a train driver can drive without a break, and also the maximum driving time per day?