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Is your train less crowded?

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deltic

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With the recent dip in passenger numbers I have compared average loadings per train between Q4 2013/14 and Q4 2017/18 and they show a fall for every operator apart from South Western Railway. This doesn't take account of any change in length of trains but putting aside the present timetabling issues, have people noticed a reduction in the number of people on their trains in the last few years?

TOC Change in train loading
Virgin Trains West Coast -18.9%
West Midlands Trains -15.1%
CrossCountry -12.7%
Chiltern Railways -12.3%
TransPennine Express -11.1%
London Overground -10.7%
Northern -8.8%
All Tocs -6.6%
c2c -6.6%
Greater Anglia -5.7%
East Midlands Trains -5.3%
Arriva Trains Wales -4.8%
Virgin Trains East Coast -4.8%
Southeastern -3.3%
Great Western Railway -2.6%
ScotRail -0.6%
Merseyrail -0.6%
Govia Thameslink Railway -0.3%
South Western Railway 3.6%
 
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Number or density?

I don't count the passengers who board and alight - not even the TOCs do that!
Regarding density I haven't noticed any differences. Then again I'm a Northern passenger...
 

Stew998

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Definitely noticed a reduction in passenger numbers on the Eastbourne to London Bridge service in the mornings. This coincided with the DOO strikes which I think forced a lot of people to try working from home and discovering they could do so more effectively than they'd imagined.

The recent timetable omnishambles will only have reinforced this lesson. Before the strikes there could be people standing on the 0711 from Haywards Heath (about 50 minutes to LBG) sometimes recently I've seen coaches only 25% full.

When the railway will wake up to this and offer more flexible season tickets to reflect the increase in flexible working is an interesting question.
 

3141

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It might depend where you were on a train. If you're near the front of 8, 10 or 12 coaches arriving at Waterloo, there'll probably be much the same number of passengers, but there may be fewer towards the rear.
 

pemma

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I don't catch the same train every day and Northern's random unit generator means the diagrammed type of unit doesn't always turn up. I say in the case of Mid-Cheshire overall no and probably that they are more crowded not less crowded, mainly because a couple of services have lost carriages since the May timetable change and there's a lot more 150s out and about which have had the PRM work done meaning there's now fewer seats.
 

swt_passenger

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I don't count the passengers who board and alight - not even the TOCs do that!
Except they can and do on some stock that is fitted with passenger counting equipment. A subset of the SWR 450 fleet has infra red passenger counting sensors above the doorways - it is used in conjunction with the more general info provided by the load weighing system fitted to all the units.
 

Kieran1990

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Some TPE services feel lighter since May timetable change.
07:34 Leeds (LDS) - Liverpool Lime St (LIV)
17:31 Manchester Victoria (MCV) - Scarborough (SCA)
But this could be down to the switch to Victoria from Picc.
 
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Except they can and do on some stock that is fitted with passenger counting equipment. A subset of the SWR 450 fleet has infra red passenger counting sensors above the doorways - it is used in conjunction with the more general info provided by the load weighing system fitted to all the units.
Oooh! I knew that counting equipment existed, but not that anyone was using it in the UK outside of metros/trams. Wider adoption might finally lead to accurate station and line usage figures from the OOR.
 

jhy44

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If anything the Cross-City South (Birmingham New Street-Longbridge) has got even more crowded in my opinion; and it'll get a lot worse once the Bromsgrove extension opens next month. They really need all 6 coach units in the peak hours.
 

Teddyward

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C2c early mornings into town
And late afternoon to evening out of town are noticeably busier. Especially pre 8am into town. Middle morning still very quiet, it’s not impossible to get on at grays and keep the carriage to oneself all the way to fenchurch.
 

Y Ddraig Coch

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If they keep putting the prices up as quickly as they do passenger number will continue to fall. Simple. Getting very expensive for someone who doesn't fall inside a railcard remit to travel.
 

wimbledonpete

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Commuting on HS1 from the Kent Coast my experience is that trains are definitely getting fuller, reflecting more people moving down, I guess. And for leisure travellers I was on the 10.37 from St Pancras to Folkestone this morning and it was full and standing at least to Folkestone West, where I got off. I was in the second carriage of six, too, so it wasn't a case of people cramming into the rear coaches.
 

bnm

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Commuting on HS1 from the Kent Coast my experience is that trains are definitely getting fuller,

Your experience. The trains you are using.

You cannot extrapolate from that. Across Southeastern passenger numbers are down 3.3% over 4 years. Across the UK they are down 6.6%.
 
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benbristow

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Seems the same to me, travelling between Paisley Gilmour Street/Glasgow and Glasgow/Hairmyres (East Kilbride)
 

randompixel

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Nope. And I wish they'd make the 0653 from Brookwood 12 coaches instead of 8 so I wouldn't have to sit on the floor so much.
 

pemma

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Your experience. The trains you are using.

You cannot extrapolate from that. Across Southeastern passenger numbers are down 3.3% over 4 years. Across the UK they are down 6.6%.

Figures across a TOC overall don't have to be representative of each individual line. It's entirely possible some lines are seeing more passengers despite the TOC overall carrying fewer passengers. It's also possible the figures are misleading e.g. if some ticketing anomalies have been corrected, some people might be counted as making one return journey per day when previously they were counted as making two return journeys per day.
 

squizzler

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What source of data are you using? A few links would be useful as would the methodology.

I'm not saying you are wrong but your numbers just don't look right to me.
 

wimbledonpete

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Your experience. The trains you are using.

You cannot extrapolate from that. Across Southeastern passenger numbers are down 3.3% over 4 years. Across the UK they are down 6.6%.

Thank you. I saw the figures - they're in the opening post. The thread is "Is your train less crowded?" and my experience is that no, it isn't. If Southeastern is down by 3.3% that doesn't mean that every flow on Southeastern is down by that. Given that they've recently adjusted their schedules so that two of the most overcrowded HS services from Ashford can get an extra six coaches that would suggest that there's not a dramatic decrease in those particular loadings.
 

LewFinnis

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Your experience. The trains you are using.

You cannot extrapolate from that. Across Southeastern passenger numbers are down 3.3% over 4 years. Across the UK they are down 6.6%.
I make quite a few journeys on HS1, mainly off-peak but some p.m. peak out of London and they definitely are busier now than they once were. It's not unusual to have standing passengers off-peak between Ebbsfleet and Stratford or even StP. Evening peal tend to be standing to Ashford. The extension from Dover round the coast no doubt had quite a lot to do with it.
 

yorksrob

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I make quite a few journeys on HS1, mainly off-peak but some p.m. peak out of London and they definitely are busier now than they once were. It's not unusual to have standing passengers off-peak between Ebbsfleet and Stratford or even StP. Evening peal tend to be standing to Ashford. The extension from Dover round the coast no doubt had quite a lot to do with it.
I've been told by my family, who still live that way, of the overcrowding on HS1 to Ashford. Better use of the mainline via Tonbridge is the solution.
 

Merseysider

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Since the timetable change, the Northern services on my commute have been noticeably less busy.

On several occasions I’ve been the only person alighting at Salford Central in the evening on ex-Bolton trains.

Presumably due to the cock up with timetables and cancellations, some passengers have switched to alternative transport methods.
 

js1000

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Since the timetable change, the Northern services on my commute have been noticeably less busy.

On several occasions I’ve been the only person alighting at Salford Central in the evening on ex-Bolton trains.

Presumably due to the cock up with timetables and cancellations, some passengers have switched to alternative transport methods.
Yes, where the timetable has badly affected services at certain stations - I have noticed a dramatic fall in passengers.

The commuter stations on the Styal Line to the airport in south Manchester are eerily quiet. These have been badly affected by the timetable changes with irregular calling patterns, skip-stop system, very rarely on time and more frequent cancellations. Clearly this is damaging peoples' trust in the system and turning many people away. Whereas the Stockport side (Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel) is fine as nothing has really changed and they still have a reliable service.

I was the only one to board a train from Mauldeth Road into Manchester last night at 8 o'clock. Bearing in mind the weather and the fact it was a Friday, the fact I was the only one boarding the train should be very disturbing to Northern. I would passenger numbers are 30-40% down judging by how busy the platforms are compared to pre-timetable change.
 

Merseysider

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@js1000 That tallies with what I’ve heard from friends.

I spoke with @Starmill on the train to Fishguard Harbour who confirmed that Styal line loadings are way down.

The new timetable is completely daft - prior to May 20 there was a 2tph all stops service with healthy passenger numbers, every 30 minutes.

Now you’ve got an irregular service, often with a 45 minute wait, with the local calling pattern completely destroyed, rendering local travel nigh on impossible, especially with one of those 2tph being the Crewe - Liverpool, which has been cancelled, part cancelled or delayed more often than it’s run on time.

It’s no wonder people are getting the bus. Passenger numbers in the morning on the 50 between southern Manchester and Salford Central, where I’d get off, have steadily grown for the last six weeks.
 

Tracked

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06:23 DON-SHF was getting busier when I used to catch this, before the changes, when I've been in for it recently it's been around the same.

06:46 Don-Chd was getting busier before the timetable change, has seemed busier on the platform since the change but until last week it was being late fairly often, so may have been picking up people going for the 06:58 to SHF (the change to the 06:28 Northern to SHF, now at 06:37, might account for some too). There's a couple of people getting on now who used to get the 07:01 to Shefffield though, started seeing them since the timetable changes. Doesn't seem any more/less busier from SHF but there's been more getting on at CHD.

15:27 CHD-SHF There's never been that many catching it to notice a change in trends, some days it's busy some days it isn't.

15:52 SHF-DON A little busier at SHF, but there's a few people who used to get the 15:41 Northern before it disappeared in the timetable change, plus a few who used to get the 16:10 Cleethorpes train, which seems to be late most days.

Not sure if the changes to Bentley & Adwick services have affected their loadings as I've not been on them often enough. The Adwick train used to leave 8 minutes after the LDS stopper and stop at 17:34, but now they're about going 20 minutes after and running all evening.
 
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Bantamzen

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What source of data are you using? A few links would be useful as would the methodology.

I'm not saying you are wrong but your numbers just don't look right to me.

I'd be I interested to know too, the OP refers to average loadings but this would only be a useful measure where capacity is static. If operators increase capacity then average loadings may reduce even though actual use increases.
 

pemma

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The commuter stations on the Styal Line to the airport in south Manchester are eerily quiet.

I spoke with @Starmill on the train to Fishguard Harbour who confirmed that Styal line loadings are way down.

Surely Styal station itself should have seen an increase in usage given its' now got an hourly service and the village saw it's only bus service withdrawn a couple of weeks ago.
 

hozza94

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Southbound LO service to West Croydon morning peak: definitely busier due to the withdrawn of New Cross Gate stops on fast line trains
 

WelshBluebird

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Nope - but that could well just be down to regular short formations and regular cancellations of services causing passengers to be crammed into smaller spaces than before!
 

ainsworth74

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The train I get in the morning I would say has gotten noticeable quieter over the last month. It's not dramatic but noticeable. That being said the timetable on my line has had a lot of trains moved around so it could be that people are using alternative trains so the loading is a bit more spread. We've not had much chaos up this way after the first week so I don't think it's related to that.
 
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