8A/3A Break of journey restriction imposed on return portion?

Bletchleyite · 18 May 2018

So (much as those restriction codes are wrong and have been for ages) is this actually also a material change taking place with this fares change?

Does anyone have access to the proper restriction text for say 8A or 3A from the fares change to check?

RailUK Forums

janb · 18 May 2018

Bletchleyite said:
It is absolutely not a wilful change; you can clearly see the correct wording for 3A (8A is the same) from the January fares manual for this year quoted above, obtained from brfares.com. That's the version rail staff will get in The Manual or whatever it's called now.

Clearly you weren't aware that I was writing from the inside. The version that rail staff get is the same as what is on the public site. This issue arose because the change was noticed on internal.nationalrail.co.uk (the internal Knowledgebase), and the question arose "ok, what are we supposed to tell customers?". If internal.nationalrail.co.uk had the information as you describe I wouldn't have started this thread. I've only been using the public site links to illustrate because I can't link you to the internal site.

Re the change that Joe highlights, the internal site has long said that BoJ can be barred on the return subject to restriction code, the change in wording at least makes the the public site consistent.

Bletchleyite · 19 May 2018

janb said:
Clearly you weren't aware that I was writing from the inside.

No, I wasn't, as you didn't say so! And on the public site 8A has said a different thing on nationalrail.co.uk/8A for a long time than it has said on brfares.com.

Can you post the full text version of 3A or 8A from the IKB

Interestingly, when the "simplification" first happened BoJ could be barred on both outward and return, and some of the LM Super Off Peaks did exactly that.

Why the change, then the change back again?

janb · 19 May 2018

iKB 3A/8A will have to wait until I am in work but it is basically the exact same webpage as the public site.

Re BoJ on the return
When checking general Off Peak return information, the iKB brings up basically the following page which is also available publicly
http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/ticketterms/show?&ticketTypeCode=SVR

The other public page that you previously cited obviously contradicted that until it was recently changed.

Bletchleyite · 19 May 2018

That’s wrong as well - it says “not permitted” under BoJ rather than “may be permitted”.

Can they get anything right?

Edit now I'm on a proper keyboard... it does however look very much like VTWC (and I'm assuming they are responsible for it, as it's only 3A, 8A and the other "unrestricted Off Peak" ones that seem to be affected, and 8A was a mistake from ages ago, no doubt because of the Lancaster issue) have managed to get RDG to change it.

@yorkie Sorry to tag you again but you'll know...are they allowed to do this? Is there a means of challenging it?

janb · 21 May 2018

The 3A page has now been corrected to say "outward journey" both internally and externally.

The 8A page still doesn't specify and has the break of journey spanning both columns (re the exact text request, the page is identical internally/externally)

Bletchleyite · 21 May 2018

janb said:
The 3A page has now been corrected to say "outward journey" both internally and externally.

Well, that is a favourable outcome at least

The 8A page still doesn't specify and has the break of journey spanning both columns (re the exact text request, the page is identical internally/externally)

As I mentioned that one has been wrong for a good while. Thanks for the info on the internal page though.

8A appears to have last been known correct in June last year:
https://web.archive.org/web/20170629135151/www.nationalrail.co.uk/8A

embers25 · 17 Jun 2018

All pages on National Rail have now been updated to say "Break of journey is allowed on the outward and return portions of Off-Peak tickets unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket's validity code." Therefore it is no longer permitted. How is this allowed without some sort of consultation as that is a HUGE additional restriction.

Wallsendmag · 17 Jun 2018

embers25 said:
All pages on National Rail have now been updated to say "Break of journey is allowed on the outward and return portions of Off-Peak tickets unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket's validity code." Therefore it is no longer permitted. How is this allowed without some sort of consultation as that is a HUGE additional restriction.

No that says that there isn't a restriction unless indicated.

yorkie · 17 Jun 2018

But the old rule was that it was allowed on the outward journey unless otherwise indicated, and in ALL CASES on the return portion.

embers25 · 18 Jun 2018

yorkie said:
But the old rule was that it was allowed on the outward journey unless otherwise indicated, and in ALL CASES on the return portion.

Exactly and so the 8A restriction is now enforceable in both directions and my guess is that this is the beginning of the end for break of journey on off peak tickets as the TOC's slip in more 8A-esq restrictions. Can they make this change without any form of consultation given it has potentially huge significance for ticket flexibility across the country as more TOC's play the 8A game. It's also a great way of banned starting late and ending short as neither are strictly valid if you break of journey is banned (unless it is considered the beginning and end of your journey which many guards will likely challenge). Watch SWR implement this on all Woking tickets (direction to Woking not from Woking) as most contain a premium for Heathrow making them double the price of stations nearby.

jkdd77 · 18 Jun 2018

For what it's worth, many TOC websites continue to quote the 'old' rule that BoJ is always permitted on the return leg of (Super) Off-Peak Returns. Arguably, if this is the information provided to the customer at the point of sale, and a passenger who needs to break their return journey specifically purchases a '8A' ticket on that basis, then the contract for travel has been entered onto on that basis (i.e. that BoJ is permitted on the return leg), such that the purported BoJ restriction is unenforceable against that passenger, at least in theory.

In any case, BoJ is not covered by fares regulation, so I see no formal impediment to TOCs adding BoJ restrictions to (Super) Off-Peak tickets, provided that the restriction is made reasonably clear at the point of purchase.

ForTheLoveOf · 18 Jun 2018

jkdd77 said:
For what it's worth, many TOC websites continue to quote the 'old' rule that BoJ is always permitted on the return leg of (Super) Off-Peak Returns. Arguably, if this is the information provided to the customer at the point of sale, and a passenger who needs to break their return journey specifically purchases a '8A' ticket on that basis, then the contract for travel has been entered onto on that basis (i.e. that BoJ is permitted on the return leg), such that the purported BoJ restriction is unenforceable against that passenger, at least in theory.

In any case, BoJ is not covered by fares regulation, so I see no formal impediment to TOCs adding BoJ restrictions to (Super) Off-Peak tickets, provided that the restriction is made reasonably clear at the point of purchase.

Well, as I see it it's quite simple - there is no connection between the contract which TOCs make with passengers, which has BoJ validity however it is informed to the passenger, and the validity which TOCs are required to apply by virtue of fares regulation and/or their franchises. The fact that a fare was in breach of fares regulation doesn't, in my mind, make the restriction unenforceable as long as it is notified to the passenger, or made available, before purchasing.

8A/3A Break of journey restriction imposed on return portion?

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