Harbornite
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Indeed. Absolute wibble.
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Why isn't the traction crisis leading to an increase in electrical hauling of freight?
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Indeed. Absolute wibble.
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Apparent success? All that cancelling part of GW electrification has done is put extra costs on the train operator as they have to equip electric-only trains with diesel engines at significant initial and on-going costs, probably in excess of the saving. Either way it is DfT (and therefore taxpayers) who pays.
richieb1971
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The only wibble comes from wibblers. The OP wants to know why diesel is used for freight in preference to electric locomotion. The arguments state that a change of traction makes things expensive, let alone being inconvenient. If more of the network was electrified and freight used AC locos throughout then it would make sense to do the end bit at the depot as well. Or would you stop 1/4 mile from the depot so you could still use your shunters?
HSTEd
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They've delivered bi-mode trains that fulfill the specification that was set. Which is more than I can say for the GWRM programme generally.
Well all the trains were going to have diesel engines installed anyway, converting the order to bi-modes just means there will be more of them.
However, the GWRM has been a disaster - the cost estimates for the cancelled sections have been shown to be total junk and it is almost certain that the BCR of completing those sections is now terrible.
Additionally, had the bi-mode decision not been made, the project would now be looking at numerous completed pure electric units sitting in sidings because the electrification would not be finished in any reasonable timeframe.
I very much doubt that a relative handful of diesel engine assemblies of a type already in production and integrated with the design would swamp the enormous savings associated with cancelling the cancelled portions of the electrification scheme.
That may work on a new terminal purposely designed for OLE but thats not a solution you can shoe horn into most current terminals as there is generally only just enough room between lines for a person to walk down.
You do not need to stop that far out and neither do you need to electrify the whole terminal. Depending on the layout of the yard you only have wire enough to allow the electric loco to move out the way and the shunt loco to attach as Edwin_M suggested previously....this is in an area where staff and time are already built into loco changes.
Electrifying a whole terminal is expensive and risky and is frankly not needed, which is probably why you won't find to many container terminals fully electrified in any country.
Or, as Edwin_M also suggested, you don't need a shunt loco at all, just provide a runround facility clear of the container handling area, the train loco runs round and then shunts the container train into the handling area. If necessary that traditional railway feature, a set of reach wagons (otherwise stabled in an electrified siding nearby) can be used to make sure the train can be placed in position for loading or unloading without the overhead coming too close to cranes etc, and extracted again when ready to leave.
squizzler
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I just done a train trip in the continent and passed many yards (probably not intermodal terminals) in on electrified routes which covered acres and every road had its knitting. But I don't think you would do it that way if you electrified these days. Bombardier and Siemens build "last mile" versions of the TRAXX and Vectron electric locos. These contain a low powered (<200 hp) diesel genset - much less than the class 88 so no good for the road but fine for shunting stuff in the yard. Buy your locos with this last mile package factory fitted and its job done - no shunters or swinging bits of overhead conductor rail required!
Indeed, the SR built its' third-rail locomotives with lightweight pantographs to use OHLE in yard areas, so obvious were the risks!
Its a lot easier and quicker to knock out cripple wagons or perform other shunts (particularly if you need to get to the other end of the terminal) with a shunt loco...but thats another topic.
swt_passenger
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That’s what’s puzzling me. There’s threads all over the place about various fleets being not used enough, eg 70s. Hire-ins from other FOCs don’t necessarily mean an overall shortage of locos.
mallard
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According to releases from the ORR and RFG (Rail Freight Group), overall freight volume is indeed down since its 2013 peak due to the decline in coal traffic. However, construction and intermodal traffic are still steadily increasing and the number of freight train movements has only dropped by around 5% since then (although it's down by around 50% since the peak number of train movements in 2005).
Of course, in 2005 there were a great many more "heritage" locomotives in use and I suspect that with increasing congestion on many routes, the slower heavy-haul locomotives that hauled coal traffic aren't much use on other types of traffic.
DarloRich
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Your idea is a good "blue sky" idea but is impractical in reality. The ORR are very nervous about third rail and the safety risks that brings. It is no use wishing for a different environment we can only work in the one we have. Several posters have indicated how to overcome this issue. The main problem for me is that freight traffic alone will not justify a business case for electrification.
people here don't want the full picture.
there is no traction crisis. What IS a problem is the need for FOC's to ensure they have the right locomotives to meet the current customer demand and to win ( and maintain) business in an increasingly bitter and cut throat market. Several of them don't at this precise moment and want to move locos around. That isnt easy. Mallard has explained where the growth parts of the FOC businesses currently sit.
swt_passenger
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That's basically what I thought. The entire British 'pool' of locos is adequate for the flows that exist, but ownership and/or leases have to change to follow the work around as contracts change hands.
DarloRich
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I think, as @mallard says, there is a potential issue with those locos that were previously dedicated to "heavy haul" coal. I doubt they are right for long distance liner trains, say, and will struggle to find gainful employment at present. The saviour may well be engineering trains running at stupid o'clock between depot and sites.
delt1c
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Privatisation and profit, before polution. Yes it might be cheaper in the short term but a lot more harmful in the long term. But who cares as long as the fat cats make a profit
LunchSociety
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In the industry I work in we are now starting to see massively increased pressure from customers and other stakeholders regarding environmental issues. It will not be too long before this happens on the railways - in the next few years, it will become politically untenable to have large swathes of the country remaining unelectrified with no plans to electrify.
Of course, it will never be possible to electrify every inch of railway in the country but other solutions will be developed for these cases. The advance in bi-mode rolling stock and the current trend of ordering a lot of new stock could mean that the first stage would be electrifying parts of the railway that run through major metropolitan areas with the obvious air quality improvements that would bring and leaving the other parts of these lines until such a time that their electrification becomes economically viable.
HSTEd
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Why would it never be possible to electrify e every inch of railway? The Swiss did it....
Be careful what you wish for - countries that have fully electrified networks seem to go in for 'if it doesn't justify electrification, close the line'.
apk55
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The Swiss still have some diesel or bi-modes for working none electrified industrial sidings, emergencies when the power fails and working engineering trains.
As modern electric locomotives have can have such a high power/weight ratio they need ballasting to get sufficient weight for the tractive effort for freight haulage, and a "last mile" would achieve this. A class 88 is a good replacement for a class 87 (bit more power and tractive effort) and yet they can still find space and weight to fit a reasonable diesel engine.
BRX
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Seems to me that there needs to be some kind of economic incentive for FOCs to use more electric traction; DB for example have quite a few 92s that are either not used or which are not currently able to operate on the 3rd rail. Obviously it's cheaper for them to use diesel than pay for the necessary attention to their 92s. There are various Channel Tunnel flows that used a few years ago to have 92s on them but are now simply 66 throughout.
HSTEd
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If it doesn't justify electrification, does it justify existing really?
How many lines have such low traffic loadings that they will never be able to justify electrification, but aren't economic basket cases?
edwin_m
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You've posted elsewhere that electrification is dead due to the cost of recent schemes. Are you saying that we should close the 50-odd percent of our network that isn't electrified?
D365
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Yes, I'm a tad confused by that. Once the MML is done, will there be any 125mph routes still operated without wires?
HSTEd
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I did state "never"
If at some point the ORR decides to allow third rail (and HSE has nothing to do with it because they specifically recuse themselves from judgement on railway systems in the Electricity at Work Regulations) or NR manage to get their costs under control, or lesser traffic routes are converted to tram-trains at 750Vdc OHL, or we get some other electrification scheme that is less "risky" like bottom contact third rail or something....
But if a line is never going to be able to justify electrification, I have to question why its still open.
DarloRich
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no it wont - not when the government hold the purse strings.
richieb1971
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Is it not possible to put a pantograph on a diesel loco? Obviously not, but why?
edwin_m
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In the UK you need to lower the roof to make a "well" for the pantograph, as there isn't enough clearance to put it on the roof. The inside of of the loco tends to be full of diesel engine and other equipment (if it was full of empty space they'd have made it smaller). And even more importantly if they fit a pantograph they would also have to find room for a transformer, which is about the same size as the engine.
NSEFAN
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With the pantograph itself, it may be tricky to modify the locomotive body to accept a pantograph well without messing up the structural integrity. It also depends if there's any room for the electrical equipment to convert the 25kV to regulated traction supply, which will have to fit in alongside and work with the diesel electric kit that's already there.
richieb1971
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I did a bit of research and it seems South Africa has 15km of dual voltage track. It seems the cost prohibits its usage on a national scale.
The only other option would be to go back to the design of the steam locomotive, where a tender is used to store coal, it would be used to store a transformer. Wire couplings would take the 25kv AC from the tender and run the necessary transformed power to the locomotive with its big diesel engine inside it. That would add 50+ tons to the weight of the train. The reverse could be done for AC locos, where the tender would include a diesel engine to power the wheels. If such an undertaking could be done it would certainly add a lot of flexibility to pre-existing locos on the network. To make it more economical the tenders would be only used on freight diagrams that ran routes which were partially under wires. It would also add some contingency as a failed train could switch to its alternative power source under certain conditions.
Not knowing of the cost savings for running on AC power compared to diesel, I don't know if it would pay for itself. With bi-mode being a very fashionable thing right now it might be a thing in the future whilst network rail and government decide on what lines will be powered in the future.
The only other option would be to go back to the design of the steam locomotive, where a tender is used to store coal, it would be used to store a transformer. Wire couplings would take the 25kv AC from the tender and run the necessary transformed power to the locomotive with its big diesel engine inside it. That would add 50+ tons to the weight of the train. The reverse could be done for AC locos, where the tender would include a diesel engine to power the wheels. If such an undertaking could be done it would certainly add a lot of flexibility to pre-existing locos on the network. To make it more economical the tenders would be only used on freight diagrams that ran routes which were partially under wires. It would also add some contingency as a failed train could switch to its alternative power source under certain conditions.
Not knowing of the cost savings for running on AC power compared to diesel, I don't know if it would pay for itself. With bi-mode being a very fashionable thing right now it might be a thing in the future whilst network rail and government decide on what lines will be powered in the future.
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