West Coast Railway Company Windermere Services: Strike Breaking?

causton · 19 Jun 2018

DarloRich said:
This is a replacement train service being run instead of the franchised operator while employees of the franchised operator are on strike. That is the key point for me. They are running a duplicate service.

But it is not being run because of the strike, the services would have run whether there was a strike or not as Northern have decided not to run any train services along that line at all, strike or no strike.

If they cancelled Thameslink services to Rainham due to the current situation, for example, and got Southeastern to run a replacement service, then a few weeks later Thameslink drivers went on strike, would SE be strike breaking? Where do you draw the line?

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Bletchleyite · 19 Jun 2018

DarloRich said:
Membership doesn't matter. Alternative labour is being brought in to perform the tasks of those people who have withdrawn their labour as part of an officially recognized strike.

No, it isn't. Northern were not going to have any staff working on the branch whether there was a strike or not.

If there was going to be a Northern service today, then it arguably would be.

Teflon Lettuce · 19 Jun 2018

anyone care to explain how, if there are no trains scheduled- for whatever reason- by Northern it is strike breaking. If the strike didn't go ahead how many trains would Northern have run? Zero. Therefore WC aren't replacing any trains that would have been affected by strike action as there wouldn't have been any trains. Ergo they are not strike breaking!

mallard · 19 Jun 2018

DarloRich said:
They are running a duplicate service to replace a northern train.

Except they're not replacing any Northern train. The buses arranged by Northern are replacing their trains. The WCRC service is simply something arranged by the DfT/local MP because the Northern "service" is inadequate. It does not replace the Northern service in any way whatsoever, it's in addition to it.

If anything is "strike breaking" it's the bus services which are (according to NRE) still running today.

Crossover · 19 Jun 2018

DarloRich said:
Membership doesn't matter. Alternative labour is being brought in to perform the tasks of those people who have withdrawn their labour as part of an officially recognized strike.

I'm referring more at a general level with regards to Northern running some services. Presumably not all the staff have crossed a picket line of their union - surely some of them are either not unionised or are in a non-striking union (I believe it is only RMT involved, but they aren't the only union representing the railways)?

DarloRich · 19 Jun 2018

Crossover said:
I'm referring more at a general level with regards to Northern running some services. Presumably not all the staff have crossed a picket line of their union - surely some of them are either not unionised or in an non-striking union (I believe it is only RMT involved, but they aren't the only union representing the railways)?

I assume many trains are being operated by volunteers from other sections of the company. They must have chosen to work these trains.

mallard said:
Except they're not replacing any Northern train. The buses arranged by Northern are replacing their trains. The WCRC service is simply something arranged by the DfT/local MP because the Northern "service" is inadequate. It does not replace the Northern service in any way whatsoever, it's in addition to it.

If anything is "strike breaking" it's tbe bus services which are (according to NRE) still running today.

I accept it is a point of esoteric principle but principles are important. At least they are to me.

Crossover · 19 Jun 2018

DarloRich said:
I assume many trains are being operated by volunteers from other sections of the company. They must have chosen to work these trains.

Or are not unionised or are not in the striking union?

Bletchleyite · 19 Jun 2018

DarloRich said:
I assume many trains are being operated by volunteers from other sections of the company. They must have chosen to work these trains.

I'm sure there are, but not on the Windermere branch.

Or they might be in a union which has not voted to strike, or not in a union. In that case refusing to turn up to work would be gross misconduct. No reasonable person would expect someone to invite the sack so as not to cross a picket line. The most you could do would be to make a polite request to them to use a day's annual leave instead, but if the Company wouldn't allow that there's nothing they could do that wouldn't involve getting sacked.

DarloRich · 19 Jun 2018

Crossover said:
Or are not unionised or are not in the striking union?

Bletchleyite said:
I'm sure there are, but not on the Windermere branch.

Or they might be in a union which has not voted to strike, or not in a union. In that case refusing to turn up to work would be gross misconduct. No reasonable person would expect someone to invite the sack so as not to cross a picket line.

Indeed - the legislation allows such activity. The Conservatives have seen to that!

pemma · 19 Jun 2018

DarloRich said:
I am not inventing new definition. This is a replacement train service being run instead of the franchised operator while employees of the franchise operator are on strike. That is the key point for me. They are running a duplicate service to replace a northern train. That service may be running for a very good reason but it is breaking a strike. As I said, generally, I think this service is a really good idea. This aspect upsets me. It clearly doesn't bother many of you.

Incorrect. This is an alternative service for those who want to access Windermere by train while Northern are unable to run a service to Windermere due to issues with drivers. It isn't even being run on behalf of Northern, it is just like the DRS service which served Workington during the Cumbrian flooding. If there wasn't a RMT strike today the service would be running, hence it is not a service which is 'strike breaking.'

Obviously you think the people of Cumbria haven't put up with enough recently and a militant trade union should be able to shut down their perfectly legal service, which isn't operated by or on behalf of Northern because you don't like it. I really think the local media should report what trade union members actually think and then they can see if the passengers actually support the strike. In a way I'm glad they don't because if the public become too anti-Trade Union due to the actions of the RMT they'll be widespread support for restricting what trade unions can and can't do and the proper professional trade unions will suffer because of the RMT's childish antics.

Dai Corner · 19 Jun 2018

Out of interest, is there any RMT presence at or around the Windermere branch today in an attempt to dissuade the running of the WCRC train?

itsonlyme · 19 Jun 2018

jcollins said:
Obviously you think the people of Cumbria haven't put up with enough recently and a militant trade union should be able to shut down their perfectly legal service, which isn't operated by or on behalf of Northern because you don't like it. I really think the local media should report what trade union members actually think and then they can see if the passengers actually support the strike. In a way I'm glad they don't because if the public become too anti-Trade Union due to the actions of the RMT they'll be widespread support for restricting what trade unions can and can't do and the proper professional trade unions will suffer because of the RMT's childish antics.

Agreed

Darandio · 19 Jun 2018

Dai Corner said:
Out of interest, is there any RMT presence at or around the Windermere branch today in an attempt to dissuade the running of the WCRC train?

I really hope not, it's got bugger all to do with them.

Harpers Tate · 19 Jun 2018

DarloRich said:
I accept it is a point of esoteric principle but principles are important. At least they are to me.

It seems, then, that you may be creating your own point of principle to further your argument.

The fact of the matter is, that
- had Northern not already chosen to cease operating the Windermere service, then the strike may well have had an effect on those services as it has elsewhere, and in such a case, short term substitution by another TOC who would not ordinarily serve this area might represent strike breaking.
- however Northern had, already and importantly for reasons entirely unrelated to the strike, elected to cease operating trains, and a substitute TOC has been engaged for that reason and that reason alone.
- hence, the train service on this line is, as a consequence of Northern's choice to cease operating it, now operated by another TOC.
- and that TOC is not "enjoying" a period of industrial action.

Again: Northern are not operating this service for reasons unrelated to the strike, and another operator is operating it. Thus it is not, at the moment, a Northern service and the strike has no relevance at all.

43096 · 19 Jun 2018

DarloRich said:
Justify it however you want. This is a Northern only line & Northern are on strike. Offering this service is strike breaking. People may want to turn a blind eye because this is a positive story for the local people but that is up to you.

Generally speaking I think running this service is a positive and a really good news story for the local area. This particular aspects sticks in the craw. It is an important point to me but clearly not to many of you.

Utter utter utter load of tosh.

Bletchleyite has it right. The WCRC service is not a Northern service - it is directly contracted by DfT. You have more of a point with the bus service as that is a Northern service.

Dai Corner · 19 Jun 2018

If, as seems to be the case, RMT don't care about the buses or WCRC trains running I'm not sure why Darlorich does to be honest.

TBSchenker · 19 Jun 2018

The Grand Central operate 0702 Hebden Bridge - Leeds service for Northern operates this morning. Is that strike breaking? I’d say no.

It’s uncomfortable.

TPE used to run some of the Blackpool - Manchester Airport services for Northern. When Northern guards were on strike TPE guards were still operating the services TPE were contracted to work. It wasn’t strike breaking.

Moonshot · 19 Jun 2018

No it's not strike breaking , and I'm a member of the RMT.

Karl · 19 Jun 2018

Blimey, this thread is like a time warp back to late 1970s and power cuts, candle shortage and dark nights without electricity! No wonder there was a baby boom 9 months later.

I'm hoping to visit the Lakes tomorrow and appreciate the efforts afforded to this branch.

Thanks to all involved.

DarloRich · 19 Jun 2018

jcollins said:
Incorrect. This is an alternative service for those who want to access Windermere by train while Northern are unable to run a service to Windermere due to issues with drivers. It isn't even being run on behalf of Northern, it is just like the DRS service which served Workington during the Cumbrian flooding. If there wasn't a RMT strike today the service would be running, hence it is not a service which is 'strike breaking.'

Harpers Tate said:
It seems, then, that you may be creating your own point of principle to further your argument.

The fact of the matter is, that
- had Northern not already chosen to cease operating the Windermere service, then the strike may well have had an effect on those services as it has elsewhere, and in such a case, short term substitution by another TOC who would not ordinarily serve this area might represent strike breaking.
- however Northern had, already and importantly for reasons entirely unrelated to the strike, elected to cease operating trains, and a substitute TOC has been engaged for that reason and that reason alone.
- hence, the train service on this line is, as a consequence of Northern's choice to cease operating it, now operated by another TOC.
- and that TOC is not "enjoying" a period of industrial action.

Again: Northern are not operating this service for reasons unrelated to the strike, and another operator is operating it. Thus it is not, at the moment, a Northern service and the strike has no relevance at all.

43096 said:
Utter utter utter load of tosh.

Bletchleyite has it right. The WCRC service is not a Northern service - it is directly contracted by DfT. You have more of a point with the bus service as that is a Northern service.

I disagree with you and think you are wrong. This is my view and it wont change: This is a replacement train service being run instead of the franchised operator while employees of the franchised operator are on strike. That is the key point for me. They are running a duplicate service. The status of the Northern service doesn't matter. The principle is clear.

jcollins said:
Obviously you think the people of Cumbria haven't put up with enough recently and a militant trade union should be able to shut down their perfectly legal service, which isn't operated by or on behalf of Northern because you don't like it. I really think the local media should report what trade union members actually think and then they can see if the passengers actually support the strike. In a way I'm glad they don't because if the public become too anti-Trade Union due to the actions of the RMT they'll be widespread support for restricting what trade unions can and can't do and the proper professional trade unions will suffer because of the RMT's childish antics.

Is the overly emotional guff required?

Dai Corner said:
If, as seems to be the case, RMT don't care about the buses or WCRC trains running I'm not sure why Darlorich does to be honest.

because it is of interest to me. I am not an RMT member so I don't really care what they think. I hope that is ok.

Karl said:
Blimey, this thread is like a time warp back to late 1970s and power cuts, candle shortage and dark nights without electricity! No wonder there was a baby boom 9 months later.

I'm hoping to visit the Lakes tomorrow and appreciate the efforts afforded to this branch.

Thanks to all involved.

I know none of you will complain but in the future this will be tried again somewhere else while people strike. This service is being run with the best of intentions but it will be noted and used by the Tories and their chums somewhere else. Perhaps you will be worried then

Robertj21a · 19 Jun 2018

Karl said:
Blimey, this thread is like a time warp back to late 1970s and power cuts, candle shortage and dark nights without electricity! No wonder there was a baby boom 9 months later.

I'm hoping to visit the Lakes tomorrow and appreciate the efforts afforded to this branch.

Thanks to all involved.

Couldn't agree more. Talk about a return to the old days - I'm quite expecting Arthur Scargill to pop up any time soon !

From a personal perspective I really can't see what all the fuss is over anyway. There's no trains running at present and some volunteers are running a train along the same route in the meantime. I've no idea if they belong to the RMT/ASLEF or any other union (or none at all) and certainly can't see how it's strike breaking. In any event, does anyone really care these days ?

Karl · 19 Jun 2018

I wonder how this thread would have run if London's service to Southend was cancelled?

Domh245 · 19 Jun 2018

DarloRich said:
This is a replacement train service being run instead of the franchised operator while employees of the franchised operator are on strike

However, the replacement service isn't being run because they are on strike, but because they weren't running at all. There is no correlation between the strikes and the provision of this service - and in my mind the strike breaking has to be more than just coincidental.

greyman42 · 19 Jun 2018

Domh245 said:
However, the replacement service isn't being run because they are on strike, but because they weren't running at all. There is no correlation between the strikes and the provision of this service - and in my mind the strike breaking has to be more than just coincidental.

In this day and age, the vast majority of people could not care less weather it is strike breaking or not.

pemma · 19 Jun 2018

DarloRich said:
I disagree with you and think you are wrong. This is my view and it wont change: This is a replacement train service being run instead of the franchised operator while employees of the franchised operator are on strike. That is the key point for me. They are running a duplicate service. The status of the Northern service doesn't matter.

That's your opinion and nothing more. The WCRC service operating on a Northern strike day is not illegal and neither have you made a good argument about why it should be considered as strike breaking. The fact that even Mick Cash has made a statement on Northern today and he hasn't mentioned any issues with the WCRC service operating suggests your view is even more hard line than the RMT's and that's saying something!

DarloRich · 19 Jun 2018

jcollins said:
That's your opinion and nothing more. The WCRC service operating on a Northern strike day is not illegal and neither have you made a good argument about why it should be considered as strike breaking. The fact that even Mick Cash has made a statement on Northern today and he hasn't mentioned any issues with the WCRC service operating suggests your view is even more hard line than the RMT's and that's saying something!

Goodness me - of course it just is my opinion! Just as what follows is yours. I don't know what you think i am suggesting - Ii simply said that running the service today does not sit well with me. It is not for me to decide if that is right and wrong. I simply set out my views.

Robertj21a said:
There's no trains running at present and some volunteers are running a train along the same route in the meantime. I've no idea if they belong to the RMT/ASLEF or any other union (or none at all) and certainly can't see how it's strike breaking. In any event, does anyone really care these days ?

Perhaps people don't care but this approach will be used somewhere else in the future. They might care then.

I have set out my position above. I know the anti union majority here wont agree but I wont change my stance to appease them.

yorkie · 19 Jun 2018

It is good to see this service running.

jcollins said:
That's your opinion and nothing more

He's entitled to it, no matter how wrong the opinion is, and I can't see many people agreeing! But you aren't gonna change his mind.

Starmill · 19 Jun 2018

jcollins said:
That's your opinion and nothing more.

Indeed. I don't understand why some people who have opinions to which there is significant evidence to the contrary think that they're equally entitled to be taken seriously as those where there is evidence. I guess it's a sign of the times.

DarloRich · 19 Jun 2018

yorkie said:
It is good to see this service running.

I agree entirely. However, as I have said, running today sticks in the craw a little.

yorkie said:
He's entitled to it, no matter how wrong the opinion is, and I can't see many people agreeing! But you aren't gonna change his mind.

You can talk about me directly you know - BTW it is your opinion my opinion is wrong. I might disagree.

You are correct. I stand by my position. Sorry if that view isn't welcome with the anti union majority here.

Starmill said:
Indeed. I don't understand why some people who have opinions to which there is significant evidence to the contrary think that they're equally entitled to be taken seriously as those where there is evidence. I guess it's a sign of the time s.

So because you don't agree with my view it is less valid than yours? We cant all be right all the time like you. Some of us are merely mortals.

Moonshot · 19 Jun 2018

Starmill said:
Indeed. I don't understand why some people who have opinions to which there is significant evidence to the contrary think that they're equally entitled to be taken seriously as those where there is evidence. I guess it's a sign of the times.

It's a forum of opinions, the reality of running the rail network lies elsewhere. Whether anyone likes it or not, drivers and guards are respresented by either ASLEF or RMT. No amount of postings on here is going to change that.

West Coast Railway Company Windermere Services: Strike Breaking?

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