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Keolis Amey Wales - Future Rolling Stock

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gareth950

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Yes you can, so long as they operate in multiple with a compliant gangwayed unit.
So the 153s will only be able to provide 'extra' trains to release 150s for PRM work for 6 - 7 months next year, before they will have to be permanently attached to other trains and so whilst boosting capacity of existing trains, won't help to increase the number of trains running overall and won't be able to act as PRM cover if all of Wales' 150s & 158s aren't modified by 2020.
 
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Gareth Marston

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Do we know who is doing the PRM mods for The 150's & 158's? I know the initial plan was for 3 x150's and 2 x 158's to be done every 6 weeks.

At best the ex GWR 153's are only going to allow a couple more units to be freed if there's capacity to do them.
 

gareth950

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Do we know who is doing the PRM mods for The 150's & 158's? I know the initial plan was for 3 x150's and 2 x 158's to be done every 6 weeks.

At best the ex GWR 153's are only going to allow a couple more units to be freed if there's capacity to do them.
Has the work actually started yet, or are we still waiting for the 769s?

The clock is ticking.
 

krus_aragon

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So the 153s will only be able to provide 'extra' trains to release 150s for PRM work for 6 - 7 months next year, before they will have to be permanently attached to other trains and so whilst boosting capacity of existing trains, won't help to increase the number of trains running overall and won't be able to act as PRM cover if all of Wales' 150s & 158s aren't modified by 2020.

They could be used coupled up to a refurbished 150 on a diagram currently operated by two pacers, to give similar capacity until new stock arrives.
 

gareth950

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They could be used coupled up to a refurbished 150 on a diagram currently operated by two pacers, to give similar capacity until new stock arrives.
True, but don't forget coaches over 20m are banned north of Radyr, which immediately excludes 153s from Bridgend/Barry - Aberdare/ Merthyr/Treherbert diagrams. Seeing as the 769s are thought to be going on Penarth - Bargoed/Rhymney diagrams, outside of the Valleys, apart from Ebbw Vale, it's difficult to see where a 150+153 combo can replace doubled Pacers, as you rarely see doubled up Pacers outside of the Valleys on regular diagrams.

(This is until Bridgend/Barry services start running up to Rhymney obviously.)
 

krus_aragon

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True, but don't forget coaches over 20m are banned north of Radyr, which immediately excludes 153s from Bridgend/Barry - Aberdare/ Merthyr/Treherbert diagrams. Seeing as the 769s are thought to be going on Penarth - Bargoed/Rhymney diagrams, outside of the Valleys, apart from Ebbw Vale, it's difficult to see where a 150+153 combo can replace doubled Pacers, as you rarely see doubled up Pacers outside of the Valleys on regular diagrams.

Good point: I'd forgotten about the restrictions around Taff's Well.
 

Gareth Marston

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I can see some splitting of diagrams at Central to try and shuffle things around.

Likewise elsewhere the bulk of the 158's are in a circuit that has part of the day on the Cambrian and therefore need ETCS there's not an "easy" answer to how they (153's) can be used after the end of 2019.
 

PHILIPE

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True, but don't forget coaches over 20m are banned north of Radyr, which immediately excludes 153s from Bridgend/Barry - Aberdare/ Merthyr/Treherbert diagrams. Seeing as the 769s are thought to be going on Penarth - Bargoed/Rhymney diagrams, outside of the Valleys, apart from Ebbw Vale, it's difficult to see where a 150+153 combo can replace doubled Pacers, as you rarely see doubled up Pacers outside of the Valleys on regular diagrams.

(This is until Bridgend/Barry services start running up to Rhymney obviously.)

There are the 2 Radyr to Corytons that are Pacers and still diagrams left over and above the 769s to cover on Rhymney line.
 

gareth950

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I can see some splitting of diagrams at Central to try and shuffle things around.

A better option would be to re-arrange services into the 2023 diagrams earlier. You can already get 6tph from Caerphilly.
Or sort out the restriction at Taffs Well than bans any coaches over 20m, although granted it's not worth it for the sake of 153s working up there for 2 or 3 years.

Surely Central wouldn't be able to handle all the terminations of split diagrams, as we've discussed in detail already.
 

Gareth Marston

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A better option would be to re-arrange services into the 2023 diagrams earlier. You can already get 6tph from Caerphilly.
Or sort out the restriction at Taffs Well than bans any coaches over 20m, although granted it's not worth it for the sake of 153s working up there for 2 or 3 years.

Surely Central wouldn't be able to handle all the terminations of split diagrams, as we've discussed in detail already.

It could work

8 tph from Barry/Penarth = Coryton (2), Carphilly (2) and Bargoed (4).
6 tph from Taff Corridor via Cathays = Radyr (2), Terminate as now and then turn in entrance to Canton (2) & extra (2) Terminate and turn in entrance to Canton.

No driver recruitment/training issues to overcome just need some 769 flex's........................
 

craigybagel

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It could work

8 tph from Barry/Penarth = Coryton (2), Carphilly (2) and Bargoed (4).
6 tph from Taff Corridor via Cathays = Radyr (2), Terminate as now and then turn in entrance to Canton (2) & extra (2) Terminate and turn in entrance to Canton.

No driver recruitment/training issues to overcome just need some 769 flex's........................

Or just turn in platform 7 at Cardiff, and use platform 8 for all the Barry/Penarth services.

You would need slightly more staff and units though , as you would have an extra 2 tph Cardiff - Caerphilly over what you have at present.
 

mp01

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True, but don't forget coaches over 20m are banned north of Radyr, which immediately excludes 153s from Bridgend/Barry - Aberdare/ Merthyr/Treherbert diagrams. Seeing as the 769s are thought to be going on Penarth - Bargoed/Rhymney diagrams, outside of the Valleys, apart from Ebbw Vale, it's difficult to see where a 150+153 combo can replace doubled Pacers, as you rarely see doubled up Pacers outside of the Valleys on regular diagrams.

(This is until Bridgend/Barry services start running up to Rhymney obviously.)

Just wondered what the restriction was, especially given that 66s used to frequent the route and they're longer than 20m.
 

gareth950

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Just wondered what the restriction was, especially given that 66s used to frequent the route and they're longer than 20m.
I'm not 100% sure myself, something to do with throw on curves and/or platforms?
@PHILIPE knows I think.

The Class 769 thread is increasingly pessimistic. What are the realistic options to save Wales' PRM mods and Pacer replacement plan if the 769s fail to materialise this year?
There's the Northern Pacers due to start being released this autumn, but that's unlikely to happen unless they get their 769s.
Extra orders for 230s, although they would be unlikely to be ready until next May/June.
Loco hauling 319s?
Derogations and just keep the current fleet going (inc Pacers) beyond 2020 until the new trains arrive?

Why have TfW put so much faith in the 769s when it's obvious the project is in trouble?
 
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pemma

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True, but don't forget coaches over 20m are banned north of Radyr, which immediately excludes 153s from Bridgend/Barry - Aberdare/ Merthyr/Treherbert diagrams. Seeing as the 769s are thought to be going on Penarth - Bargoed/Rhymney diagrams, outside of the Valleys, apart from Ebbw Vale, it's difficult to see where a 150+153 combo can replace doubled Pacers, as you rarely see doubled up Pacers outside of the Valleys on regular diagrams.

(This is until Bridgend/Barry services start running up to Rhymney obviously.)

Have Kelios Amey said anything about where 769s would be used? ATW said where they planned to use them while Sprinters were away for refurbishment but it might be Kelios Amey's plan is different.
 

gareth950

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Have Kelios Amey said anything about where 769s would be used? ATW said where they planned to use them while Sprinters were away for refurbishment but it might be Kelios Amey's plan is different.
All we've heard is that ATW would be most likely to use them on Penarth - Bargoed/Rhymney, but I doubt ATW will need to be worried about running 769s in service.
 

Dai Corner

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All we've heard is that ATW would be most likely to use them on Penarth - Bargoed/Rhymney, but I doubt ATW will need to be worried about running 769s in service.

Possibly the 769's are only in the plan to please the Minister and they could manage fine without them? I think he claimed credit for ordering them.
 

PHILIPE

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Possibly the 769's are only in the plan to please the Minister and they could manage fine without them? I think he claimed credit for ordering them.

When people complain about overcrowding on ATW Twitter, many get a Template to say 5 new 4 car trains should be in service by the end of Summer to help with overcrowding.
 

Gareth Marston

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gareth950

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See the original thread from last year for all the quotes what little there was.https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/five-class-319-769s-for-the-welsh-network.150485/



You can bet that Arriva will get all the blame after the middle of October though.
Edwina Hart, Ken Skates, Carwyn Jones and TfW are the ones to blame and responsible for the fleet crisis facing Wales. They were warned in 2013 to start preparing immediately to modify Wales' trains and at least get a plan in place. They did nothing and ignored all advice from the ROSCOs and rail experts, insisting they would get cascaded, already PRM modified trains from other franchises, and that their magical 'competitive dialogue' process would solve everything. That was their line right up until Spring last year, until the 769 announcement was made.
ATW have just been following the letter of their contract.

However, I agree on October 15th ATW or DfT will get all the blame. Lies in politics now trumps the truth it seems.
 
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Gareth Marston

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Edwina Hart, Ken Skates, Carwyn Jones and TfW are the ones to blame and responsible for the fleet crisis facing Wales. They were warned in 2013 to start preparing immediately to modify Wales' trains and at least get a plan in place. They did nothing and ignored all advice from the ROSCOs and rail experts, insisting they would get cascaded, already PRM modified trains from other franchises, and that their magical 'competitive dialogue' process would solve everything. That was their line right up until Spring last year.
ATW have just been following the letter of their contract.

However, I agree on October 15th ATW or DfT will get all the blame. Lies in politics now trumps the truth it seems.

Much as Northern Labour MP's seem to think today's problems all date from June 2010,,Welsh Labour have not been adverse to try and rewrite rail history in Wales in the past will see them try again.

They want powers but don't like dealing with real issues and criticism for failure that comes with it.

Welsh Government didn't have to wait until the new franchise to electrify the valleys there could have been a rolling programme going on for some years ow and Pacers wouldn't be an issue.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I'm not sure DfT are blameless in this.
They wouldn't let WG go any faster to let the franchise, dragged their feet on transferring the Valleys from NR to WG and cancelled the Swansea electrification.
But WG has had W&B franchise management for over a decade, in terms of upgrading the current fleet.
 

gareth950

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Much as Northern Labour MP's seem to think today's problems all date from June 2010,,Welsh Labour have not been adverse to try and rewrite rail history in Wales in the past will see them try again.

They want powers but don't like dealing with real issues and criticism for failure that comes with it.

Welsh Government didn't have to wait until the new franchise to electrify the valleys there could have been a rolling programme going on for some years ow and Pacers wouldn't be an issue.
Don't be silly, don't you know that Welsh Government has NO control over Network Rail? Nasty Westminster prevents WG from doing anything with NR. They're not even allowed to give money to NR to fund improvements to rail infrastructure in Wales themselves (*cough* Vale of Glamorgan re-opening, Ebbw Vale re-opening, CASR, Valleys platform lengthening, north Wales re-doubling :rolleyes:)

I'm not sure DfT are blameless in this.
They wouldn't let WG go any faster to let the franchise, dragged their feet on transferring the Valleys from NR to WG and cancelled the Swansea electrification.
But WG has had W&B franchise management for over a decade, in terms of upgrading the current fleet.

All true, but the rhetoric coming from Carwyn Jones & Ken Skates since it was realised that the 'Core Valley lines' through Queen St would be the only lines getting any significant improvements, has been "Westminster won't let us get our hands on NR, we have no control over NR, DfT/NR won't let us do any upgrades outside of the Core Valleys, the only way to improve Core Valleys is to do it ourselves, Ebbw Vale is on NR's hands so we can't do anything about it" etc.
When we know that if WG gave NR the funding to carry out infrastructure improvements, it would happen, as I pointed out in examples given above. Bypasses and relief roads get priority though.
 

Gareth Marston

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I'm not sure DfT are blameless in this.
They wouldn't let WG go any faster to let the franchise, dragged their feet on transferring the Valleys from NR to WG and cancelled the Swansea electrification.
But WG has had W&B franchise management for over a decade, in terms of upgrading the current fleet.

The 158 fleet was intially 22 units WG paid for two more all the way back in 2006. There's been nothing set in stone that the current size fleet has had to stay that way.
 

hooverboy

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Do we know who is doing the PRM mods for The 150's & 158's? I know the initial plan was for 3 x150's and 2 x 158's to be done every 6 weeks.

At best the ex GWR 153's are only going to allow a couple more units to be freed if there's capacity to do them.
probably wabtec
 

Gareth Marston

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Don't be silly, don't you know that Welsh Government has NO control over Network Rail? Nasty Westminster prevents WG from doing anything with NR. They're not even allowed to give money to NR to fund improvements to rail infrastructure in Wales themselves (*cough* Vale of Glamorgan re-opening, Ebbw Vale re-opening, CASR, Valleys platform lengthening, north Wales re-doubling :rolleyes:)



All true, but the rhetoric coming from Carwyn Jones & Ken Skates since it was realised that the 'Core Valley lines' through Queen St would be the only lines getting any significant improvements, has been "Westminster won't let us get our hands on NR, we have no control over NR, DfT/NR won't let us do any upgrades outside of the Core Valleys, the only way to improve Core Valleys is to do it ourselves, Ebbw Vale is on NR's hands so we can't do anything about it" etc.
When we know that if WG gave NR the funding to carry out infrastructure improvements, it would happen, as I pointed out in examples given above. Bypasses and relief roads get priority though.

And when the project was in the then Ministers constituency there was no problem Edwina Hart and Gowerton. There's a lot of political hypocrisy going on.

Further- a source of mine says that Edwina Harts (the Welsh Goveremtn Minister in charge of transport 2012-2016) overwhelming priority was to create a peoples not for profit railway the assumptions were from Welsh Labour that the public in the UK would reject Cameron's Austerity Coalition and a Labour Government would be returned to Westminster in 2015 who would acquiesce to Cardiff Bay wanting a "peoples railway". So real life issues like PRM Compliance were put on the back burner or ignored as the Officials in WG spent most of their time working up the model to make the Ministers desired ownership structure a reality. Nearly all of this was rendered useless by the 2015 General Election result and there was a malaise until Hart stepped down at the 2016 Assembly Election.

So when Ken Skates got his feet under the desk instead of inheriting worked up plans to transform the Welsh rail Network he had a list of suitable union/ Labour party candidates to sit on the board of a cooperative not for profit rail company that wasn't going to happen. June 2016 was effectively Year Zero on Welsh Governments planing for what we actually got, this in part explains why the Mark Berry South Wales Metro concept was then embraced as it helped fill a (big) void.

In essence there was too much navel gazing at structure/supervision models and not enough real planning for services.
 
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