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Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

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507021

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Reports locally suggest that 319446 was on Allerton Depot this morning. Is this another for 769 conversion?

It seems this is the unit which arrived from Wolverton yesterday.

I think it's likely 319446 is one of the additional three units for Northern, most of the units due to be converted to 769s have entered service as 319s after all.
 

Defiance149

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A 319 was moved by road from Wolverton to Brush week commencing 7/5, anyone know the ID please? Possibly 319012.
 

johnmoly

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I think it's likely 319446 is one of the additional three units for Northern, most of the units due to be converted to 769s have entered service as 319s after all.

Is this the one thats nearly on the headshunt, light blue doors, no livery and a first class carriage ??
 

DimTim

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It’s Rail Live in 10 days time

Has the ghost emerged from Brush? Either by turning a wheel or on the back of a lorry?
 

js1000

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Any news on these? Going to displayed tomorrow I hear at Rail Live? Northern could desperately do with these.
 

Bletchleyite

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Whoever said that Northern could order Stadler's and have them before the 769's turn a wheel in service, I think you've called it.

While their product isn't quite the same, I bet Vivarail are preparing to laugh all the way to the bank. It would in many of these cases be possible to order 230s instead, and use them in a different place to cascade other DMUs (e.g. 150s, a pair of which is from a passenger's point of view near identical to a 769) onto the routes that would be operated using 769s.

Certainly the substitute would work at Wales and Borders, and it could at GWR as well if they got a few to work the branches and release Turbos to run the services planned for 769s.

Northern, OTOH, would probably be better off benefitting CAF by chucking a few extra 3-car DMUs on their Class 195 order.
 

gareth950

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While their product isn't quite the same, I bet Vivarail are preparing to laugh all the way to the bank. It would in many of these cases be possible to order 230s instead, and use them in a different place to cascade other DMUs (e.g. 150s, a pair of which is from a passenger's point of view near identical to a 769) onto the routes that would be operated using 769s.

Certainly the substitute would work at Wales and Borders, and it could at GWR as well if they got a few to work the branches and release Turbos to run the services planned for 769s.

Northern, OTOH, would probably be better off benefitting CAF by chucking a few extra 3-car DMUs on their Class 195 order.
How quickly can Vivarail build 230s though? The 769s are supposed to be in service with Northern and ATW right now.
Meanwhile 31/12/2019 is only 18 months away and counting.
Derogations in Wales must now be inevitable. Wales' entire PRM mods and Pacer replacement plan is based on getting up to 9 x 769s in service to release 150s and 158s for mods.
 

js1000

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The 230s will be an anthema to Arriva and Northern. It would be a PR disaster and that is the last thing they need. Things are so tense between passengers/local MPs and Northern Rail. Using 40 year old Underground hand me downs would really be the final straw for some.

Clearly, something is not right with strapping diesel engines onto the 769s. If it worked we'd have seen it running at the start of the year. Someone said they had problems with trains riding extremely bumpy due to the extra weight.

My question would be at what point do Northern (and other TOCs) give up and simply throw the towel in and look elsewhere?

And would Porterbrook be under contractual obligation to order new rolling stock given they have failed to meet Northern's deadline for delivery?

I guess it depends on whether Northern put a clause in the agreement which necessitates a bi-mode rolling stock order because Porterbrook are holding Northern and their passengers to ransom over this now. Not to mention Wales & GWR too. Some certainty is required.
 

mde

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The 230s will be an anthema to Arriva and Northern. It would be a PR disaster and that is the last thing they need. Things are so tense between passengers/local MPs and Northern Rail. Using 40 year old Underground hand me downs would really be the final straw for some.
If that's the case, I'm not sure they are going to fare much better rolling out 769s - sure the 319 is a familiar sight on parts of Northern's network, but, that has a downside of it already being known as 'old' - bear in mind many are the same age as the Pacers!

The 769 project surely has to be a bit of an embarrassment for Porterbrook and Brush - despite the odds being against them, Vivarail actually seem to be able to deliver with the 230, and, perhaps more importantly for some, have actually created jobs (inc new factory in the North East).

Of course, time will tell - but - if the interior is comfortable and the ride quality is decent, does the age of the chassis really matter to the average punter? Add in the reported maintenance simplicity and the choice of power options and it could very well be a winner for the TOC as well.

Longer term, I think @Bletchleyite is correct in that Northern should look to extend their orders with CAF, but Vivarail really must be rubbing their hands together with glee here.
 

DimTim

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‘Trains riding extremely bumpy’
Has a set emerged from Brush & reached the test track? Not seen anything mentioned here.
 

xotGD

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How to attach diesel engines to a 319?

Answer: Top & tail Class 37s!
 

LNW-GW Joint

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My question would be at what point do Northern (and other TOCs) give up and simply throw the towel in and look elsewhere?
And would Porterbrook be under contractual obligation to order new rolling stock given they have failed to meet Northern's deadline for delivery?
I guess it depends on whether Northern put a clause in the agreement which necessitates a bi-mode rolling stock order because Porterbrook are holding Northern and their passengers to ransom over this now. Not to mention Wales & GWR too. Some certainty is required.

I suspect the 769 order was engineered by DfT (or is being funded by them) as a consequence of the electrification slippage/cancellation.
Northern didn't contract the 769s on the open market as they did the CAF trains.
 

edwin_m

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I suspect the 769 order was engineered by DfT (or is being funded by them) as a consequence of the electrification slippage/cancellation.
Northern didn't contract the 769s on the open market as they did the CAF trains.
I think it would have to be, given that the Northern franchise bid assumed electrification of various lines at various times as instructed by DfT. If this hasn't happened then Northern would be entitled to extra funding to keep the service running. Similarly with VTEC and the ECML upgrades, and no doubt numerous others.
 

LOL The Irony

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If we don't see anything by December or May, I can see Stadler's or Bi-mode 331's on the horizon for Northern. W&B will be screwed and the DfT will have no choice but to give them a derogation (God help them if the pauly moaner gets on one of their trains) and GWR will just have to take the hit and maybe mirror what Northern.
 

Mikey C

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To be fair, the Class 230 project started considerably before the 769 project. Indeed when Vivarail were having issues with delays and fires, the joke back then was that the 769 would be in service earlier!

And new trains can face delays too, I suspect the Stadler bi-mode will face delays of its own, they've got no UK experience themselves. And the Bombardier 710s for the Overground are delayed too.
 

mde

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If we don't see anything by December or May, I can see Stadler's or Bi-mode 331's on the horizon for Northern. W&B will be screwed and the DfT will have no choice but to give them a derogation (God help them if the pauly moaner gets on one of their trains) and GWR will just have to take the hit and maybe mirror what Northern.
It's not particularly pleasant to refer to people as 'moaners' - however, in any case, most people are reasonable and would be accepting of a derogation… albeit, it should never have been necessary as the Welsh Government should have been much quicker off the ball there.

For Wales & Borders they are in chronic need of fleet going by some of the tweets you see (the reply from Arrive is that they are 'always looking' for fleet), so, the 769s running late has screwed them anyway.
 

Gareth Marston

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It's not particularly pleasant to refer to people as 'moaners' - however, in any case, most people are reasonable and would be accepting of a derogation… albeit, it should never have been necessary as the Welsh Government should have been much quicker off the ball there.

For Wales & Borders they are in chronic need of fleet going by some of the tweets you see (the reply from Arrive is that they are 'always looking' for fleet), so, the 769s running late has screwed them anyway.

it took Welsh Government over 3 years to go for the Flex option and then only because DfT had set the ball rolling. They have a plan but a plan that is increasingly looking like it wont work in time. God knows what the plan woudl be if it hadn't been for Flex.
 

Bantamzen

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To be fair, the Class 230 project started considerably before the 769 project. Indeed when Vivarail were having issues with delays and fires, the joke back then was that the 769 would be in service earlier!

And new trains can face delays too, I suspect the Stadler bi-mode will face delays of its own, they've got no UK experience themselves. And the Bombardier 710s for the Overground are delayed too.

I was going to say pretty much this. The Vivarail 230 project has been running for considerably longer than the Poterbrook 769 one, and in truth neither have yet fully proven their concepts, albeit both have orders on the books. If, and if emphasise if, there is a serious further delay to the 769s I can see Northern just bolting on an order for additional 195/331s and recasting some planned diagrams to suit the stock they'll have available, meaning some mainly electric paths still operating as diesel traction throughout.
 

mde

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it took Welsh Government over 3 years to go for the Flex option and then only because DfT had set the ball rolling. They have a plan but a plan that is increasingly looking like it wont work in time. God knows what the plan woudl be if it hadn't been for Flex.
That's generally how Government plans work! Estimates on the back of a fag packet, generally lacking in realism and… late.

Of course, your mileage may vary :)
 

Gareth Marston

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That's generally how Government plans work! Estimates on the back of a fag packet, generally lacking in realism and… late.

Of course, your mileage may vary :)

Well its come from the same stable as "we don't need electrify anymore as we got these magic bi mode trains" - in other words they've resulted from a hasty made up face saving policy decision rather than any rational logical thought out long term strategy.

And Porterbrook have all these assets they cant cascade because of lack of wires...
 

pemma

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it took Welsh Government over 3 years to go for the Flex option and then only because DfT had set the ball rolling. They have a plan but a plan that is increasingly looking like it wont work in time. God knows what the plan woudl be if it hadn't been for Flex.

10 x ePacers? 10 x D-Trains for Valley Lines?
 

pemma

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To be fair, the Class 230 project started considerably before the 769 project. Indeed when Vivarail were having issues with delays and fires, the joke back then was that the 769 would be in service earlier!

The first D-Train is set to enter passenger service this December, it's still possible the Flex could beat it or be introduced at the same time but the lack of news from Porterbrook doesn't suggest a Flex is about to be released for testing.
 

The_Engineer

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‘Trains riding extremely bumpy’
Has a set emerged from Brush & reached the test track? Not seen anything mentioned here.
As far as I can gather, they have not yet turned a wheel, even inside the Brush works. Certainly not been seen outside the works yet. Any evidence to the contrary is welcomed!
 

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