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DfT e-mails leaked to Lisa Nandy MP

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LTJ87

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Lisa Nandy MP for Wigan has claimed during Prime Minister's Questions that she has received leaked e-mails from within the Department for Transport concerning rail in the North.

These e-mails describe certain Northern routes as "valueless" and discuss whether to propagate myths to distract from route closures:

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1009401604934549504
“Passengers in the north of England have had enough” says @lisanandy who waves leaked government emails showing rail problems were known about two years ago.

https://twitter.com/lisanandy/status/1009399963443519489

I've been handed emails showing that Ministers and DfT officials were warned about Northern rail chaos 2 years ago. They show utter contempt for Northern passengers. #PMQs
 
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daikilo

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This could get interesting...

Or not! It is common practice for new franchises and/or timetable changes. The term valueless is incorrect in this case and should have been lower value (than alternative servicess routed to the airport). Equally connecting say Southport-Victoria to Victoria-Leeds is common practice as it avoids two reversals blocking through tracks whether or not there is actually any through traffic.

What is not helpful is if someone has let loose an e-mail that uses the word "sop". To consider the concept is not unusual but to be daft enough to let it go public is not best practice.
 

pemma

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Agreed. I saw the Twitter thread a little earlier and didn't think there's anything in there that's not already been discussed on here. I also think Lisa Nandy starting a Twitter conversation saying

Lisa Nandy said:
I've been handed emails showing that Ministers and DfT officials were warned about Northern rail chaos 2 years ago.

is misleading. Southport to Leeds was a planned change which has been implemented despite some not liking it. The real chaos is on routes where there were insufficient qualified drivers and on routes which were expected to get improvements, only for them to be dropped a few weeks before the timetable change date.
 

WelshBluebird

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It is common practice for new franchises and/or timetable changes.

Is it?

To purposefully help propagate myths that services are being cancelled so passengers are then happy when it turns out they are only being diverted?
Essentially misleading passengers in an attempt to get good PR at the end of it? That is common practice?

For ministers to lie to passengers about routes being maintained when it is known internally that actually those routes won't be. That is common practice?
 

pemma

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Is it?

To purposefully help propagate myths that services are being cancelled so passengers are then happy when it turns out they are only being diverted?
Essentially misleading passengers in an attempt to get good PR at the end of it? That is common practice?

For ministers to lie to passengers about routes being maintained when it is known internally that actually those routes won't be. That is common practice?

My understanding is the plan was for Southport-Bolton-Piccadilly-Airport services to be diverted to Victoria via Atherton to make better use of overhead electrics (well it would if Network Rail had delivered electrics!) There were talks regarding retaining a peak time only Southport to Piccadilly service, which has been successful, at peak times there's a Southport-Bolton-Piccadily-Alderley Edge service. There have also been talks about using 769s on an hourly Southport to Alderley Edge service once Wigan-Bolton and Manchester-Stalybridge eventually get wired, given Porterbrook haven't produced the 769s and Network Rail are getting further and further behind with wiring, perhaps it's not surprising that those talks haven't reached a conclusion yet.
 

daikilo

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Is it?

To purposefully help propagate myths that services are being cancelled so passengers are then happy when it turns out they are only being diverted?
Essentially misleading passengers in an attempt to get good PR at the end of it? That is common practice?

For ministers to lie to passengers about routes being maintained when it is known internally that actually those routes won't be. That is common practice?

Sorry, the "common practice" I was refering to is a change/addition/deletion of pairings such as discussed, I should have used more words.
 

Bletchleyite

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I thought she meant *actual* closures there.

Re Southport I'm not sure that now Manchester city centre has been developed out towards Vic and that area is no longer a somewhat desolate, run-down wasteland that it was wrong to serve only Vic from Southport (as was the case pre-Windsor Link). Passengers can always change at Salford Crescent if they want the University or Picc. Manchester is big enough (and spread out enough) that passengers can't really expect direct services from everywhere to everywhere - indeed, overcomplicating the network by trying to provide them is part of the problem, isn't it?

Really, the routes and diagrams need simplifying, not complicating.
 

hibtastic

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Is it?

To purposefully help propagate myths that services are being cancelled so passengers are then happy when it turns out they are only being diverted?
Essentially misleading passengers in an attempt to get good PR at the end of it? That is common practice?

For ministers to lie to passengers about routes being maintained when it is known internally that actually those routes won't be. That is common practice?

Yes that is what I think might get interesting. Not covering themselves in glory really.
 

notlob.divad

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Is this really a 'leak' Lisa Nandy seems to be saying it is the result of an FOI request, as she is unhappy that the emails released only cover the period before the current Transport secretary took up his role. That to me is not a leak, even if the Prime Minister described it as such in the commons in an effort to avoid answering the question.
 

30907

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Not sure I'd take any e-mail signed "yours cynically" at face value.
As for the rest,
1. I thought the minister was right about Southport-Piccadilly in the peaks?
2. Southport-Leeds obviously has minimal value end-to-end.
 

colchesterken

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This is what BR did to justify closures, useless timetables that do not meet local needs and when people go by car they said the line was unprofitable
I cannot see how a private company would get away with closing a line. The bearded one would say the private companies are only in it for the profits.. as if !!!!!!
Read an article about the new Wales franchise, I see it is SNCF & Ferrovial, (Spanish) Is it a good idea to give our assets to Europians when we are leaving..Bring back BR in some form or other, maybe not the same as before but state run not for profit
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Read an article about the new Wales franchise, I see it is SNCF & Ferrovial, (Spanish) Is it a good idea to give our assets to Europeans when we are leaving..Bring back BR in some form or other, maybe not the same as before but state run not for profit

Nobody has given assets away, they remain in (Welsh) government hands.
The other bidders before some withdrew were Dutch, Hong Kong and German.
No British operator chose to bid (or didn't reach the short-list), although Arriva is at least part British (HQ in Sunderland).
Keolis is part-Canadian, not wholly SNCF or French. They run DLR, Manchester Metrolink and other UK local transport.
Amey is a UK company with HQ in Oxford, and is owned (like Heathrow Airport) by Ferrovial.
They are also a large contractor on the GW electrification and other UK railway projects.
Presumably you don't own a German car or a Chinese-made phone, or buy electricity from EDF or use Netflix or any of those foreign things.
If you keep foreigners out of our markets, they won't buy our cars or Airbus planes (wings made in Wales), or borrow from our banks, etc.
 

Ianno87

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This is what BR did to justify closures, useless timetables that do not meet local needs and when people go by car they said the line was unprofitable
I cannot see how a private company would get away with closing a line. The bearded one would say the private companies are only in it for the profits.. as if !!!!!!
Read an article about the new Wales franchise, I see it is SNCF & Ferrovial, (Spanish) Is it a good idea to give our assets to Europians when we are leaving..Bring back BR in some form or other, maybe not the same as before but state run not for profit

I'm not sure what's "useless" about two trains per hour connecting Southport to Manchester?
 

Camden

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It is difficult for me to see this other than deliberate wrong doing, in breach of codes of conduct. Possibly even misconduct in public office?

What I find shocking also though is the implication that this has been going on with TfGM in the loop. A supposed "transport for the north" partner who has allegedly been informed by dft that the plan is to screw over a town in the neighbouring city region and lie about it in order to quell dissent. https://mobile.twitter.com/lisanandy/status/1009399979822247936

And to think those in the Liverpool city region who suggest they believe collusion are scoffed at. It also raises serious questions about the similar messages that went out about HS2 a number of years ago. That now merits investigation.

Disgraceful.
 
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158756

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It is difficult for me to see this other than deliberate wrong doing, in breach of codes of conduct. Possibly even misconduct in public office?

What I find shocking also though is the implication that this has been going on with TfGM in the loop. A supposed "transport for the north" partner who has allegedly been informed by dft that the plan is to screw over a town in the neighbouring city region and lie about it in order to quell dissent. https://mobile.twitter.com/lisanandy/status/1009399979822247936

What is the big story here? The 'Yours cynically ' email? If anything that just shows there was no plan to reduce services to Southport. It's a practice many believe has been used before in the railway and other industries. It's not right, but no one's focusing on that aspect anyway.

How has Southport been screwed over - the Airport service has just been diverted to Leeds. No one is really interested in doing that journey end to end, so we see the extension was included in the franchise just to reduce complaints about the loss of direct trains to the Airport - many of us will have guessed that at the time. It's not news that Southport might be a weaker contender for the scarce paths through Oxford Road. There is not, and has never been a plan to actually reduce services to Southport. If we can't change the routings around Manchester we may as well give up and admit the railway can never be improved.

The BBC, of course, haven't actually bothered to read up on the story, and are presenting the emails as warnings of the timetable chaos.
 

Camden

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No interest in arguing the toss, the simple fact is that dishonesty has been unearthed, including raising serious questions about both what can be trusted and who. People outside greater Manchester have long had misgivings about rail North and transport for the north.

Here we have an example as to why they're clearly right. The Liverpool city region should be asking lots of questions, and demanding out.
 
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WatcherZero

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This is being raised by a GM MP who was one of the group of three Southport line MP's that successfully campaigned to maintain a peak service from Southport to the Airport.
As the letters rightly pointing out, diversion of services to Victoria is a result of the specification of electric services and there is much lower demand west of Wigan. And the dft took up the franchise bidder extras option of extending Southport services to Leeds despite there being little commercial value. The sarcastic comment by the Dft official is in response to TfGM challenging them over the poor Southport specification, did you ever see anyone at any time ever suggest that the Southport line would be shuttered? Did you ever see this alleged handling strategy in play? The Kirkby line on the other hand there was serious consideration given to curtailing it going back far longer than the refranchising process (to the HLOS for CP5) and just running it as a shuttle which would allow a higher frequency.
 
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Bletchleyite

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I don't see what's poor specification about a 2tph service to the same station (which is much easier to plan to use than serving two different ones).

Manchester isn't laid out like it used to be with Victoria at the back end of a wasteland overlooking Strangeways. It's now much more central as the city centre has migrated that way.
 

Kite159

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Yes some people might be unhappy at being forced to change on route at Salford (or even Wigan) as both services from Southport go to Manchester Victoria. It isn't like the end of the world. A bit like how some stations in South Eastern land lost direct services to Charing Cross (with everything sent to Cannon Street)
 

Bletchleyite

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Yes some people might be unhappy at being forced to change on route at Salford (or even Wigan) as both services from Southport go to Manchester Victoria. It isn't like the end of the world. A bit like how some stations in South Eastern land lost direct services to Charing Cross (with everything sent to Cannon Street)

I think simplifying and rationalising Northern's network would lead to quite a few of that kind of thing, but provided quality connections are provided (e.g. at the Crescent) I really don't see a great issue with it.

At present (and for years before) Northern's network seems to be based on the idea of direct trains from everywhere to everywhere, which just overcomplicates things.
 

Bornin1980s

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The whole thing reminds me of Yes, Minister. In particular, the 'handling strategy' reminds me of when problems were manufactured in order to give the minister the opportunity to look good (or to get him on side).
 

JBuchananGB

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My daughter has just moved to Leeds. I am about to move to Southport. I am pleased to note that railway planners have anticipated this and provided a direct service between the two.
 

Gareth Marston

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The MP is trying to link two pretty much separate things togethar to make political capital admittedly but the most telling thing is the attitude displayed by the language used. The little people and places in the North don't really matter do they? Then again you could probably find the same sort of stuff from the SRA c 2003 and DfT c2008 when Labour were in power......then again if your in Labour June 2010 is Year Zero.
 

Camden

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Clearly, some people in "the north" matter more than others, given the recipients of some of these emails.

Some in "the north", including possibly those who were supposed to be looking out for the interests of "the north", appear to have been given access to information which has been hidden from everyone else. Not surprising it was hidden, since the information suggests a deliberate intention to lie to and mislead everyone else.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...ews/secret-emails-northern-rail-show-14809624

While good working relations with national government are important, along with an investigation into this particular matter and how individuals have conducted themselves in public office, questions need to be asked about the appropriateness of the relationship that meant such an email could be sent, given the enhanced spend and attention that the area in question receives and the decreased spend that goes on elsewhere. How can there be any confidence in process as things are.

I feel the whole of the DFT and its decision making processes needs to be scrutinised, perhaps audited. Major projects where questionable/controversial decisions have been made (HS2) involving billions of pounds of cash spend and consequence need to be paused while this is unpicked.

This particular topic might be fairly trivial. What it could indicate might be far less so.
 
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B&I

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I think simplifying and rationalising Northern's network would lead to quite a few of that kind of thing, but provided quality connections are provided (e.g. at the Crescent) I really don't see a great issue with it.

At present (and for years before) Northern's network seems to be based on the idea of direct trains from everywhere to everywhere, which just overcomplicates things.


Perhaps this is something which should have been considered pre-Ordsall Chord. If it's not important to maintain a direct connection from Southport to Manchester Airport, why has the entire Transpennine network been redesigned around facilitating access to it ?
 
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