ATW: 'No trains' after Ed Sheeran concert in Cardiff this Sunday

gareth950 · 21 Jun 2018

ATW have confirmed that no extra trains (above the usual Sunday service level) will be put on to get fans home, mainly to the Valleys and the Vale of Glamorgan, after the Ed Sheeran concert at the Millennium Stadium in Cardiff this Sunday night.
So how are fans who have taken the train in to town meant to get home afterwards? Not a great advert for a capital city.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-44546280

Plan ahead
Up to 60,000 fans are expected each night and they have been advised to plan ahead for their journey to Cardiff as last trains to destinations such as London, Birmingham, Portsmouth and Aberdare could leave before the concert is due to finish at 22:30 BST.

Arriva Trains Wales has warned passengers attending Sunday's event there will be no trains to towns like Barry, Caerphilly, Pontypridd, Ebbw Vale, Treherbert and Carmarthen after the concert.

No extra capacity
While there will be extra services to Swansea and Newport after the gig, Arriva says it has no extra capacity or resources to add more trains on the Valley lines on Sunday night.

"Running additional services late on Sunday would mean having to cancel Monday morning commuter services," said Bethan Jelfs of Arriva.

Transport expert Prof Stuart Cole said while he "sympathises" with Arriva, adding extra capacity on Sunday "is not easy but it is possible" and there was a year to plan for it.
He added: "If Cardiff wants to be a big event city which can regularly attract acts like Ed Sheeran, Coldplay, Beyonce etc, they need to be able to get people in and out of the city efficiently on public transport.

"The problem on Sunday will be rolling stock and drivers will be out of place for the following morning rush hour, but with a little extra planning Arriva could have come up with a solution."

RailUK Forums

ValleyLines142 · 21 Jun 2018

Absolutely pathetic. Rolling stock wouldn't be in the wrong place for Monday morning, it just means they would get there later than normal. They simply haven't prepared or have forgotten about the event.

PHILIPE · 21 Jun 2018

It's probably traincrew availability and the usual Sunday syndrome of relying on volunteers to do anything over and above. Fair play though, unlike many other TOCs though, ATW rarely see cancellations on a Sunday.

Gareth Marston · 21 Jun 2018

DanTrainMan185 said:
Absolutely pathetic. Rolling stock wouldn't be in the wrong place for Monday morning, it just means they would get there later than normal. They simply haven't prepared or have forgotten about the event.

So why did they provide extra trains and strengthening on Thursday, Friday and Saturday then?

ValleyLines142 · 21 Jun 2018

Gareth Marston said:
So why did they provide extra trains and strengthening on Thursday, Friday and Saturday then?

They were obviously prepared for then but I don't see why the fact it's a Sunday makes any difference whatsoever.

gareth950 · 21 Jun 2018

DanTrainMan185 said:
They were obviously prepared for then but I don't see why the fact it's a Sunday makes any difference whatsoever.

In 2018 it doesn't and it shouldn't. I told someone recently that the railways rely on volunteers to work trains on Sundays, and if there aren't enough volunteers, trains are cancelled, and they were genuinely shocked and stunned.

Is there any other public service that provides a 7 day service that relies on volunteers to work Sundays to keep the service going?
I don't see what the difference is between still working 4 days out of 7 and one of those days being a Sunday. As long as it's only say one Sunday a month.

Envoy · 21 Jun 2018

It’s because all the railway staff are deeply religious and therefore the system must rely on volunteers to work on Sundays! (Goes back to the 1800’s apparently). So - & I hate to say this but - not much point in putting the new Bristol Area by Temple Meads and relying on the railways. (Might as well go by Filton where there will be plenty of parking). Surely it is time that this industry got into the 21st century and ceased having 19th century contracts of employment?

twpsaesneg · 21 Jun 2018

gareth950 said:
In 2018 it doesn't and it shouldn't. I told someone recently that the railways rely on volunteers to work trains on Sundays, and if there aren't enough volunteers, trains are cancelled, and they were genuinely shocked and stunned.

Is there any other public service that provides a 7 day service that relies on volunteers to work Sundays to keep the service going?
I don't see what the difference is between still working 4 days out of 7 and one of those days being a Sunday. As long as it's only say one Sunday a month.

Sunday was a very reduced service, especially on Valley Lines, 20 years ago. The drivers T&Cs will still be based on the arrangements then, and strong unions mean that change is slow. From a driver's point of view why should they give up their Sundays off especially if that's the contract they signed when they joined?

Turn it on it's head though, why should a commercial concern pay through the nose to pay for additional drivers on rest day working to accommodate the timings of another commercial concern's event?

I'm sure the timetable pattern on a Sunday would have been known at the time people bought tickets for the gig, if they didn't account for getting home afterwards why is it Arriva's problem?

yorksrob · 21 Jun 2018

The last train leaves before the concert ends.

This has been the case for gigs in Leeds on any day of the night right up until the recent timetable change. Its not recent news.

gareth950 · 21 Jun 2018

twpsaesneg said:
Sunday was a very reduced service, especially on Valley Lines, 20 years ago. The drivers T&Cs will still be based on the arrangements then, and strong unions mean that change is slow. From a driver's point of view why should they give up their Sundays off especially if that's the contract they signed when they joined?

Turn it on it's head though, why should a commercial concern pay through the nose to pay for additional drivers on rest day working to accommodate the timings of another commercial concern's event?

I'm sure the timetable pattern on a Sunday would have been known at the time people bought tickets for the gig, if they didn't account for getting home afterwards why is it Arriva's problem?

As @Envoy alluded to, and as I was trying to say as sensitively as possible in my argument, does it matter what days are rest days when you work in an industry that provides a 7 day service? The NHS doesn't rely on nurses and junior doctors volunteering to work Sundays. It's written into contracts.
If overall contract hours stay the same, and as long as drivers/guards aren't be expected to work both Saturday and Sunday every weekend, does it really matter whether Friday or Saturday (or Tuesday) are rest days and not Sunday?

It's 2018 not 1988 and society, working and leisure patterns and lifestyles have changed dramatically in 30 years. In big cities and especially capital cities, Sundays are rapidly becoming indistinguishable from any other day in terms of people needing to travel.
How does public transport have a chance against the car if it can't even provide a service home after a major concert on a Sunday night in a capital city?

CharlieSpotted · 21 Jun 2018

twpsaesneg said:
I'm sure the timetable pattern on a Sunday would have been known at the time people bought tickets for the gig, if they didn't account for getting home afterwards why is it Arriva's problem?

If I'm attending a massive gig in a distant city I tend to book a hotel room (well, Travelodge) for afterwards and travel back the next day. Gigs, by their nature, tend to end late and who wants to be rushing out of the venue back to the station and stressing about getting a train?

That said, Cardiff has a particular problem with a lack of hotel capacity. It's getting slightly better now there are a couple more chain hotels, but it always used to be the case that getting a room when there was a major event on was hard, and some hotels (*cough* The Big Sleep *cough*) clearly engaged in price gouging on event nights. With these accomodation issues I guess it's even more important that the transport is up to snuff, and I'd say finishing service before the event ends is way short of what most people would expect in 2018.

GB · 21 Jun 2018

Do we really need another debate on Sunday working!?

WelshBluebird · 21 Jun 2018

twpsaesneg said:
I'm sure the timetable pattern on a Sunday would have been known at the time people bought tickets for the gig, if they didn't account for getting home afterwards why is it Arriva's problem?

I thought we wanted to encourage people to use public transport and to stop being reliant on the car for everything?
The attitude throughout your post is totally the opposite to the attitude needed if we are to be serious about that.

CharlieSpotted said:
and some hotels (*cough* The Big Sleep *cough*) clearly engaged in price gouging on event nights.

This absolutely still happens. And it isn't just the big sleep either.

gareth950 · 21 Jun 2018

CharlieSpotted said:
If I'm attending a massive gig in a distant city I tend to book a hotel room (well, Travelodge) for afterwards and travel back the next day. Gigs, by their nature, tend to end late and who wants to be rushing out of the venue back to the station and stressing about getting a train?

That said, Cardiff has a particular problem with a lack of hotel capacity. It's getting slightly better now there are a couple more chain hotels, but it always used to be the case that getting a room when there was a major event on was hard, and some hotels (*cough* The Big Sleep *cough*) clearly engaged in price gouging on event nights. With these accomodation issues I guess it's even more important that the transport is up to snuff, and I'd say finishing service before the event ends is way short of what most people would expect in 2018.

Barry and Pontypridd, or anywhere in the Valleys, are not 'distant' from Cardiff! People from Barry or Pontypridd should not be expected to have to book into a hotel on Sunday night just because ATW won't provide a service home after the event, esp as most people will have work on Monday morning. As has been said, services are running late on every other night, Sunday should be no different.

Pakenhamtrain · 21 Jun 2018

gareth950 said:
As @Envoy alluded to, and as I was trying to say as sensitively as possible in my argument, does it matter what days are rest days when you work in an industry that provides a 7 day service? The NHS doesn't rely on nurses and junior doctors volunteering to work Sundays. It's written into contracts.
If overall contract hours stay the same, and as long as drivers/guards aren't be expected to work both Saturday and Sunday every weekend, does it really matter whether Friday or Saturday (or Tuesday) are rest days and not Sunday?

My best mate is a driver for Metro down here. He works 10 days then he has a few(2 or 3 days if I recall) before another 10 days. Those days off end up where ever in the week. For the most part a Sunday is no different to a Saturday.

twpsaesneg · 21 Jun 2018

WelshBluebird said:
I thought we wanted to encourage people to use public transport and to stop being reliant on the car for everything?
The attitude throughout your post is totally the opposite to the attitude needed if we are to be serious about that.

I'm just pointing out that there's two ways to look at it. I'm not traincrew. But if someone tried to change my T&Cs then I wouldn't be happy. To me it sounds like Arrive have tried to do the best reasonably possible (3 days out of 4 with extra services).

Anything is possible if people want to pay for it, maybe the Wales Metro will bring in the additional funding to have loads of rostered spare drivers on Sunday Evenings in case there's an event... but be prepared for pay for it somehow!

philthetube · 21 Jun 2018

with the fares as they are in the valleys providing extra services will cost arriva money, there is no reason why the venue shouldn't contribute to that, there is also no reason why the Welsh government shouldn't stipulate when franchising that extra services should be run.

Wembley stadium has a latest finishing time allowed in it's planning permission to ensure people can get home by public transport.

Envoy · 21 Jun 2018

Well, I suppose that if you are earning about £50,000 per year for driving trains up & down the valleys you really would not wish to volunteer for overtime on a Sunday.

alangla · 21 Jun 2018

To be fair, relying on volunteers to provide extra services (not the core timetable) for events seems perfectly reasonable. If it's profitable for the train company to operate the extra services then they should be able to make it profitable enough for the staff to volunteer to turn out. Unless, of course, the issue is that the turnout on the previous nights has maxed out the working hours of anyone interested in doing it and, as a result, that would impact Monday morning's service

theking · 21 Jun 2018

What time do trains normally finish on a Sunday?

What time have they scheduled the concert to finish?

Why should a commercial company change it's plans for one event.

Maybe just maybe Ed should have planned his concert around the available resources.

WelshBluebird · 21 Jun 2018

twpsaesneg said:
I'm just pointing out that there's two ways to look at it. I'm not traincrew. But if someone tried to change my T&Cs then I wouldn't be happy. To me it sounds like Arrive have tried to do the best reasonably possible (3 days out of 4 with extra services).

Anything is possible if people want to pay for it, maybe the Wales Metro will bring in the additional funding to have loads of rostered spare drivers on Sunday Evenings in case there's an event... but be prepared for pay for it somehow!

philthetube said:
with the fares as they are in the valleys providing extra services will cost arriva money, there is no reason why the venue shouldn't contribute to that, there is also no reason why the Welsh government shouldn't stipulate when franchising that extra services should be run.

Wembley stadium has a latest finishing time allowed in it's planning permission to ensure people can get home by public transport.

theking said:
What time do trains normally finish on a Sunday?

What time have they scheduled the concert to finish?

Why should a commercial company change it's plans for one event.

Maybe just maybe Ed should have planned his concert around the available resources.

As a reply to all of those - perhaps Sunday services in the valleys shouldn't be as shockingly bad as they are, regardless of events in Cardiff?

Poor frequencies (one train every 2 hours), late first trains (first train from Treherbert is 8.20 am ish), early last trains (last train to Treherbert is at 10pm ish and Sunday staffing still done on a voluntary basis. Its like going back 30 odd years or more. No other industry would get away with running their operation like this.

I am hoping the South Wales Metro stuff will solve some of those issues, but I am pessimistic. At least there will be the chance though, unlike with ATW who just say "nope - not in the franchise".

talldave · 21 Jun 2018

theking said:
Why should a commercial company change it's plans for one event.

Because there's money to be made? Because helping people travel home after a big event means they might be more inclined to come to future events, bringing cash to a wide range of businesses in the area, including the railway?

daikilo · 21 Jun 2018

talldave said:
Because there's money to be made? Because helping people travel home after a big event means they might be more inclined to come to future events, bringing cash to a wide range of businesses in the area, including the railway?

As I assume you know, ATW and in particular Cardiff Valleys are run at a massive loss. It is a huge problem to negotiate specific events as they may have been inculded in the incumbents revenue projections. Hopefully TfW will work on this.

philthetube · 21 Jun 2018

talldave said:
Because there's money to be made? Because helping people travel home after a big event means they might be more inclined to come to future events, bringing cash to a wide range of businesses in the area, including the railway?

certainly no money to be made, off peak return Barry to Cardiff £5.30 off peak Aberdare Cardiff, one of the longest valley lines journeys, £8.20, you need a lot of bodies stacked up to make money there.

It is also worth considering that if a service was run it would have to be adequate to accommodate everyone, leaving 10,000 behind in cardiff would not be safe or sensible, so if Arriva were not sure they would be able to provide enough trains the better option if for none to run.

Envoy · 21 Jun 2018

16.12 on Thursday 21 June and no joy on the M4 > massive jam westbound all the way from the Severn Bridge to the tunnel at Newport. Further jams in and around Cardiff. Goodness knows how the rail replacement buses are doing? Expect an even worse situation on Friday. The trains going through Newport are the usual 2 & 3 coach diagrams - except for the London services. (Seven Tunnel is closed of course - another factor that should have been checked by the organisers/Cardiff Council/Transport for Wales before allowing these concerts to be booked at this time). The link will show the M4 situation at the time you click it. At least the Water Vowels on the Gwent Levels are safe - even if the humans are not!
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.570336,-2.9339752,12.36z/data=!5m1!1e1

Envoy · 21 Jun 2018

philthetube said:
certainly no money to be made, off peak return Barry to Cardiff £5.30 off peak Aberdare Cardiff, one of the longest valley lines journeys, £8.20, you need a lot of bodies stacked up to make money there.

Outside of school holidays, the valley line trains are relatively empty off peak because over 60’s are riding around for free on the buses. (You can see them in the buses).

Master29 · 21 Jun 2018

theking said:
What time do trains normally finish on a Sunday?

What time have they scheduled the concert to finish?

Why should a commercial company change it's plans for one event.

Maybe just maybe Ed should have planned his concert around the available resources.

Because they knew this sort of thing when they took on the franchise.

Dai Corner · 21 Jun 2018

FWIW the three main bus operators in Cardiff don't appear to be running additional services on any of the four days. They only mention the road closures on their websites.

Gareth Marston · 21 Jun 2018

People are not looking at the whole picture here. Everyone is failing to acknowledge that Ed Sheerhan is not playing one night but four in succession. There is a full event plan in place @ Central for not one day as when Wales play at home but 4 days in succession.

There are lots of people volunteering to work overtime Thursday, Friday and Saturday until very late at night with extra trains and strengthened services running into the early hoursofnext day meaning maintainence schedules are behind. The fourth day is probably stretching it to far.

PHILIPE · 21 Jun 2018

CharlieSpotted said:
If I'm attending a massive gig in a distant city I tend to book a hotel room (well, Travelodge) for afterwards and travel back the next day. Gigs, by their nature, tend to end late and who wants to be rushing out of the venue back to the station and stressing about getting a train?

That said, Cardiff has a particular problem with a lack of hotel capacity. It's getting slightly better now there are a couple more chain hotels, but it always used to be the case that getting a room when there was a major event on was hard, and some hotels (*cough* The Big Sleep *cough*) clearly engaged in price gouging on event nights. With these accomodation issues I guess it's even more important that the transport is up to snuff, and I'd say finishing service before the event ends is way short of what most people would expect in 2018.

Hotels in Cardiff tend to raise their prices when there is a big event on

ATW: 'No trains' after Ed Sheeran concert in Cardiff this Sunday

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