And the holders of those tickets would have been able to get a train home, as they would never have got in. Even if Ed can't influence transport provision, he's having a good stab at the ticket touts.
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ATW: 'No trains' after Ed Sheeran concert in Cardiff this Sunday
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But that's all a bit "we've always done it this way" isn't it? If we're going to be so defeatist, why bother doing anything? It's this lack of a "can do" attitude that's leaving this country (UK!) behind.
tbtc
Veteran Member
It's easy for people on here to throw around soundbites on various threads along the lines of "the railway should be a public service" (e.g. in terms of whether it should be nationalised, in terms of whether it should cater to various niche markets), but where do you draw the line?
Are you saying that Cardiff should have regular departures until midnight seven days a week (even when there are no gigs on)? Or only extended late departures when there are events of a particular size? An Ed Sheeran gig is presumably important enough but does the "meeting the needs of the public" test have a certain threshold, at which later departures are necessary? Would the timetable have different notes in it to show that trains would run slightly later on evenings when Cardiff City are at home and maybe an hour later when there's International Football/ Rugby in central Cardiff? How complicated to you want to make it? Do we get into arguments about mid-level gigs, or maybe Carabo Cup matches being worth/unworthy of such services?
And how far out of Cardiff should services run? Do late night departures after an evening football international need to permit supporters to get all the way to Holyhead? Too far fetched? Wrexham then? Fishguard? But Cardiff City games only need to cover the Valleys/ Maesteg/ Ebbw Vale?
As I said before, the railway has always been relatively inflexible. It's not like putting on buses/coaches (where you only need one member of staff per vehicle, plus maybe one person in a control room). As well as the Drivers and Guards there are the station staff, presumably some security to deal with the crowds, signal boxes would have to be staffed... all of this for the sporadic nature of a certain number of gigs per year? We can't run Sunday services without relying on overtime, but we should have something written into the contract for days when pop stars are in Cardiff?
The "it should be a public service" argument gets over-egged by some people on here to justify lots of different things - often the kind of demand where coaches or even minibuses would be sufficient to cope with the various branches of demand.
Llanigraham
On Moderation
So lobby your MP to get the franchise contracts changed, but remember 2 things:
1/ It is likely to result in higher fares to cover the increased salary bills of the drivers and on-train staff.
2/ You will also have to persuade Network Rail to alter all their contracts for their signalling, MOMs and others who also only work Sundays as O/T.
And nothing would change until the franchises are due for renewal, either!
WelshBluebird
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Errr yes.
At the very least Cardiff and the nearby areas. It is mad that the last train from Cardiff to Pontypridd on a Sunday is 10pm.
Which should be changed asap.
Dai Corner
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Cardiff Bus (wholly owned by Cardiff City Council) is surely a 'public service organisation'. What are they doing to get people home after the show? Nothing. Just a normal service (except some routes are altered/curtailed from 3pm when city centre streets close due to the event).
WelshBluebird
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Of course, the difference there is Cardiff bus serves an area where people can walk or get a cheap Taxi to get home. Not really an option for places like the Rhondda (without spending an arm and a leg).
Also Cardiff Bus operate some routes 24/7 and others have much later Sunday last buses than just 10pm. So still doing better than the railway.
Robertj21a
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Flawed document ? - have you alerted the powers that be ?
I would have thought that any professional company (in this case Arriva) would do their utmost to comply with every aspect of the contract that they have entered into. Quite why you feel that a company should then risk money through running loss-making services on a Sunday night - for one concert - is quite beyond me.
The railways *are* a public service, that's why Arriva works to the contract that was required of them.
Which bit don't you understand ?
WelshBluebird
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Well I would certainly say that the assumption the franchise made of no growth is a flaw, would you not?
As for ToC's providing services beyond what the franchise states - why not? Other ToC's do. GWR for example, in collaboration with Bristol council, provide additional services on the Severn Beach line - something which is almost a victim of its own success with how busy some of those services can be!
And I don't think Arriva should put on a extra trains just for one event. I think they should run a better Sunday service in general (as I keep saying, the current Sunday service in the Cardiff and valleys area is so poor it is embarrassing) and then continue to work with Cardiff council and other bodies to provide additional capacity where possible as they already do.
The 2003 SRA specified Wales and Borders franchise was deeply flawed before it had even begun. The powers that be were well aware of this and have been since 2003. It was a 15 year, standstill, no allowance for growth franchise. Essentially Wales was told you're not allowed anymore trains, no extra services, no investment, with no provisions to get ready for 2020 before the franchise ends just 14.5 months before the deadline. And you're lucky you're not getting any cuts to services, along with running a Sunday service around Cardiff and on the Valleys that is barely usable. For 15 years.
Arriva may say they are fulfilling their contract, but that contract is not fit the travel demands of the 21st Century.
We will still have to wait until 2023/2024 for the promised increase in Sunday services and 2tph on Sundays on the Valleys from the new operator, which is far too long to wait.
johnnychips
Established Member
Nobody’s written on here (I think -it’s a long thread) what actually happened. Did the concert overrun? If not, I presume people attending made arrangements to get home or stay in a hotel beforehand, based on the availability or not of transport. Whether extra/later trains should run in general or for one-off events is another argument, which is indeed being debated here.
I have no idea how much an Ed Sheeran ticket costs. He is a superstar, but does seem a decent bloke, so perhaps doesn’t charge rip-off prices. But if there are more than one of you travelling, I would have thought a pre-ordered taxi would be a low percentage of your evening’s cost.
I have no idea how much an Ed Sheeran ticket costs. He is a superstar, but does seem a decent bloke, so perhaps doesn’t charge rip-off prices. But if there are more than one of you travelling, I would have thought a pre-ordered taxi would be a low percentage of your evening’s cost.
WelshBluebird
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The gig is this weekend, rather than having passed.
The discussion I think is relevant though because Ed Shreeran is doing 4 nights in Cardiff, last night, tonight, tomorrow night and Sunday night. For all but Sunday, ATW are putting extra services on (as they usually do for Cardiff event nights), but they aren't on Sunday (indeed I just checked and tonight the last service from Cardiff to Treherbert is around midnight, over an hour later than the normal Friday last train and almost 2 hours later than when the last service will be on Sunday).
Because of that, I'd imagine some people who have booked for Sunday would have assumed ATW would do the same for the Sunday as they are for the other days and as they often do for other events. But nope. And as a lot of the time the extra services are arranged and publicised only in the weeks before an event, there would have been no way for people to know the extra services wouldn't be happening on the Sunday (I guess you could use that to argue people wouldn't know there would be extra services at all, but it is something, to their credit, ATW do manage to do fairly often on event days).
Without a doubt, but would you like to do back to back with the second one being early?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I would say it is sensible for city transport networks to have the final departures from the city centre somewhere between 2330 and 0000 seven days a week, yes.
johnnychips
Established Member
Oops sorry! What time is it due to finish?
The last gig I went to was as 10cc in Bristol. I’d booked a hotel in Portishead, and was working out last buses, taxi options etc. In fact the lead Graham Gouldman is even older than me, and presumably needs his sleep, so they finished at 2130!
Scheduled finish time of 2230, all last trains up the Valleys and to the Vale of Glamorgan on Sundays are 10pm ish.Oops sorry! What time is it due to finish?
The last gig I went to was as 10cc in Bristol. I’d booked a hotel in Portishead, and was working out last buses, taxi options etc. In fact the lead Graham Gouldman is even older than me, and presumably needs his sleep, so they finished at 2130!
Last trains are:
Aberdare 1941
Merthyr Tydfil 2026
Rhymney 2116
Treherbert 2206
Barry 2225 (the only line with a resemblence of a decent Sunday service)
Even I didn't realise how ridiculously early the last trains are to the heads of the Valleys on Sundays. That really is completely crazy.
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WelshBluebird
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Oops sorry! What time is it due to finish?
The last gig I went to was as 10cc in Bristol. I’d booked a hotel in Portishead, and was working out last buses, taxi options etc. In fact the lead Graham Gouldman is even older than me, and presumably needs his sleep, so they finished at 2130!
Not being a massive fan of his I am not sure, but I think its around 10.30pm.
As I said on the other days it is actually looking pretty good in terms of train services, but on the Sunday the only ones after the gig finishes are some Swansea services, one Hereford service, some Bristol bus replacement services (I'd imagine it'll be than just 3 buses, but there are 3 timetabled services), and one Swindon bus replacement service.
We have tried to explain why it's difficult, probably loss-making and possibly just plain impossible to do.
If the concert finishes at 11, and you can get the last trains away by 12 it'll be 2am before the empty stock gets back to the depot. Stock which is then due off again (cleaned, watered and maintained) by 0500 onwards. The traincrew would be booking off around 0230 which means they couldn't book on again for their Monday jobs till 1430.
But if you want to believe it's a petulant "shan't go to work attitude" that's up to you.
I agree with all of this. But that's a matter for the franchise contract negotiation. Not for lambasting ATW for not putting on extra trains on the 24th June 2018.
Robertj21a
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What I really don't get is why people are having a go at Arriva when they appear to be complying with what was required of them. If the contract was 'flawed' then why hasn't anyone pursued it through the appropriate authorities years ago. Crazy !
Will it? And even if it did, it won't tell you how people are planning to travel. We thought we had detailed information for the Papal Visit. Every Parish "knew" how many people would be visiting each venue; each Diocese collated the figures and passed them on to us. On the day it was nothing like!
Dai Corner
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They're managing it on Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights. Presumably three nights is the limit and Sunday is a day/night of catching up with maintenance/rest/sleep.
WelshBluebird
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They are managing it Thursday night, Friday night and Saturday night, thus the issue is Sunday working. So it is very relevant here.
A ToC has the option of doing more than just the franchise. Other ToC's often do. Even Arriva themselves often do. Except when it comes to the issue of Sundays (and bank holidays at Christmas, but thats another topic!).
Robertj21a
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Fine, I'm not surprised at all. Why on earth all the fuss ?. You seem to want later trains on all Sundays up the Valleys - great idea. What are you doing to achieve it ?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If that was a problem there wouldn't be any trains after about 2200 on a weekday - but there are. It's simply an antiquated view that Sunday needs an early finish, and it's false.
Will it make money? Probably not, but city transport networks (other than bus) generally don't. They are subsidised for the public good - accessibility for those without cars, reduced pollution and reduced traffic.
Must admit this one really surprised me, though:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P53783/2018/06/23/advanced
Dai Corner
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That's in the normal timetable, spends the night at Hereford and forms the first service back in the morning.
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
It goes to Hereford to work the first of the morning 0526 to Barry Island
Are you privy to the TOCs rostering rules and principles then?
Even then it is not that simple at some places. Where I am the first shift of the week determines what shift you are on the rest of the week. For example if I booked on 2200 Sunday, not only would I be restricted to working 10 hours or less, the following start time for Monday must be no more than four hours either side of 2200...so you would effectively be stuck on nights the rest of the week.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Why would the rules be different on a Sunday? (I know they are, but it is my firm view they need changing - public transport is a 7-day requirement in 2018).
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