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Keolis Amey Wales - Future Rolling Stock

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LNW-GW Joint

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In essence there was too much navel gazing at structure/supervision models and not enough real planning for services.

It seems to me that it's Keolis Amey who are the public face of the franchise, not TfW.
You'd have expected some forthright statements from WG by now about things like revenue risk, "not for profit", station management and train leasing, if major changes were afoot.
It looks more and more like a regular DfT franchise to me.
 
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daikilo

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It seems to me that it's Keolis Amey who are the public face of the franchise, not TfW.
You'd have expected some forthright statements from WG by now about things like revenue risk, "not for profit", station management and train leasing, if major changes were afoot.
It looks more and more like a regular DfT franchise to me.

Well, I would suggest that now is the right time for Keolis/Amey to be going public on what they have just won, which includes the new trains and trams. Come October they will probably try to take a lower profile in case the transfer isn't perfect.

Apart from the tram-trains, TfW have chosen to focus on their colour scheme which will be appearing more and more often and becoming a statement that "we are the rulers", rather like TfL. I am actually intrigued as to what colourscheme/branding will be on the "heritage" fleet as ATW may not be happy with a no-change lasting too long.
 

Gareth Marston

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It seems to me that it's Keolis Amey who are the public face of the franchise, not TfW.
You'd have expected some forthright statements from WG by now about things like revenue risk, "not for profit", station management and train leasing, if major changes were afoot.
It looks more and more like a regular DfT franchise to me.

I think we can add the caveat of reluctantly with some twists ( i.e no profits to be taken in first 5 years).

Competitive Dialogue= we don't actually have any plans for services just some generic broad brush aspirations? Help us as were behind the game thanks to the previous Ministers obsession with ownership model?

Kelois winning bid details are on the same page in a lot of respect with the RUG's around Wales and the Borders surprisingly so. If WG left a void then the Rail User Groups have happily filled it, comparing what we got with SARPA's aspirations/plans it almost as though there cut and paste in lot of areas :lol:. The RAIL article is telling the Kelois mobilization Director uses the phrase "we were clever" not TfW or WG and were able to show improvements pan Wales and Borders at the expense of going Light Rail loopy around Cardiff.

However Kelois have been dealt a dud hand in the plan for PRM Compliance and Pacer extinction as they have had to inherit the plan what the Welsh Government signed up to this time last year which by all accounts is falling apart. (769's).
 

Dai Corner

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I think we can add the caveat of reluctantly with some twists ( i.e no profits to be taken in first 5 years).

Competitive Dialogue= we don't actually have any plans for services just some generic broad brush aspirations? Help us as were behind the game thanks to the previous Ministers obsession with ownership model?

Kelois winning bid details are on the same page in a lot of respect with the RUG's around Wales and the Borders surprisingly so. If WG left a void then the Rail User Groups have happily filled it, comparing what we got with SARPA's aspirations/plans it almost as though there cut and paste in lot of areas :lol:. The RAIL article is telling the Kelois mobilization Director uses the phrase "we were clever" not TfW or WG and were able to show improvements pan Wales and Borders at the expense of going Light Rail loopy around Cardiff.

However Kelois have been dealt a dud hand in the plan for PRM Compliance and Pacer extinction as they have had to inherit the plan what the Welsh Government signed up to this time last year which by all accounts is falling apart. (769's).

The politicians allocating funds and then letting the professionals and service users decide the best way to spend them is a refreshing change. I hope it catches on elsewhere.
 

MarkyT

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Apart from the tram-trains, TfW have chosen to focus on their colour scheme which will be appearing more and more often and becoming a statement that "we are the rulers", rather like TfL.

I think this is a good development, bringing various transport services under a common brand or brand family through common colours and graphic elements. The logo is OK, simple and memorable, and the bold contrasting colours should work well on vehicles. I don't like that military style stencil typeface however used for the corporate name. Perhaps its meant to symbolise building blocks, or stencilled ID numbers on parts or containers in reference to their infrastructure function. Either way it looks weird to me, but I expect it won't appear at any size on vehicles. The metro logotype is a different face for example.
 

gareth950

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And when the project was in the then Ministers constituency there was no problem Edwina Hart and Gowerton. There's a lot of political hypocrisy going on.

Further- a source of mine says that Edwina Harts (the Welsh Goveremtn Minister in charge of transport 2012-2016) overwhelming priority was to create a peoples not for profit railway the assumptions were from Welsh Labour that the public in the UK would reject Cameron's Austerity Coalition and a Labour Government would be returned to Westminster in 2015 who would acquiesce to Cardiff Bay wanting a "peoples railway". So real life issues like PRM Compliance were put on the back burner or ignored as the Officials in WG spent most of their time working up the model to make the Ministers desired ownership structure a reality. Nearly all of this was rendered useless by the 2015 General Election result and there was a malaise until Hart stepped down at the 2016 Assembly Election.

So when Ken Skates got his feet under the desk instead of inheriting worked up plans to transform the Welsh rail Network he had a list of suitable union/ Labour party candidates to sit on the board of a cooperative not for profit rail company that wasn't going to happen. June 2016 was effectively Year Zero on Welsh Governments planing for what we actually got, this in part explains why the Mark Berry South Wales Metro concept was then embraced as it helped fill a (big) void.

In essence there was too much navel gazing at structure/supervision models and not enough real planning for services.

If this is true, and I fully suspect it is, it's a shocking abdication of responsibility. It explains why the whole process was carried out in top secret, why there has been a desperate power grab for the 'Core Valley lines', and why there was not an ITT. Anyone seen the much promised ITT yet?

Neglecting PRM compliance is a total scandal. How on earth did Edwina hart think that a 'People's Railway' would magically fix PRM compliance in Wales? There are no excuses from Welsh Govt on this. They've been responsible for managing the Welsh fleet since 2006 and did absolutely nothing to prepare for 2020 until reality dawned last Spring after years of warnings.

The politicians allocating funds and then letting the professionals and service users decide the best way to spend them is a refreshing change. I hope it catches on elsewhere.

As long as it is the rail professionals who decide the best way to spend the money, and not academics with crayons dreaming up fantastical schemes that have no resemblance to, and are completely incompatible with how the operational railway works, which is what we almost had in and around Cardiff and the Valleys.
 

Gareth Marston

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If this is true, and I fully suspect it is, it's a shocking abdication of responsibility. It explains why the whole process was carried out in top secret, why there has been a desperate power grab for the 'Core Valley lines', and why there was not an ITT. Anyone seen the much promised ITT yet?

Neglecting PRM compliance is a total scandal. How on earth did Edwina hart think that a 'People's Railway' would magically fix PRM compliance in Wales? There are no excuses from Welsh Govt on this. They've been responsible for managing the Welsh fleet since 2006 and did absolutely nothing to prepare for 2020 until reality dawned last Spring after years of warnings.



As long as it is the rail professionals who decide the best way to spend the money, and not academics with crayons dreaming up fantastical schemes that have no resemblance to, and are completely incompatible with how the operational railway works, which is what we almost had in and around Cardiff and the Valleys.

There's was a lot of pretty colourful Metro maps and talk of developing the proposals and phases but what was actually going on behind the scenes? The metro was coming was the message for public consumption ( which didn't really tick the boxes in West, Mid and North Wales and the Borders) but so was the PRM compliance deadline.

The metro was a nice shiny distraction - look at the colours on the various versions of the maps! Maybe too much of one? And for a period it was all hands to the pump on the quest for the people's railway model.
 

mmh

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The only thing that seems to have been confirmed for the poor buggers in the north is replacing horrendously bad condition 75mph stock (150s which would be OK if they'd not been left the interiors to rot) on the 90mph primary route into the region with 60mph ex-London Underground trains?

And the politicians wonder why they've still not convinced the north to give a damn about the south
 

Dai Corner

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The only thing that seems to have been confirmed for the poor buggers in the north is replacing horrendously bad condition 75mph stock (150s which would be OK if they'd not been left the interiors to rot) on the 90mph primary route into the region with 60mph ex-London Underground trains?

And the politicians wonder why they've still not convinced the north to give a damn about the south

Well, there are the brand new DMUs based at Chester and the MkIV loco- hauled trains for the Holyhead-Cardiff service
 

mmh

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I didn't know there was a north/south divide within Wales.

Ideally there probably wouldn't be, but in some ways it's a bigger north/south divide than the English one sadly. I'm from the north but the only place I've ever been in the south is Newport station (for an assessment with FGW). I'm not proud of that, but it's not rare. The geograhy of Wales, while fantastic, doesn't help :(
 

The Ham

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I didn't know there was a north/south divide within Wales.

As I understand it there can sometimes be a belief amongst some from North Wales that South Wales Valleys are full of English people who came to work in the coal mines.
 

Phil from Mon

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I didn't know there was a north/south divide within Wales.
There is certainly a perception in the north that South Wales gets the lion’s share of any investment. In some cases that is justified I think, but in others it is not. There are also the historical differences, well aired on here, with north Wales traditionally looking to Liverpool (once regarded as the de facto capital of North Wales) and NW England, mid Wales looking to the midlands, and the South looking across the Severn. These are all a consequence of geography, which has cut the regions of Wales off from each other. The other divide is linguistically - there are a number of differences between the Welsh spoken in the North (which many of its proponents regard as being “purer”) and that spoken in the south.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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There is certainly a perception in the north that South Wales gets the lion’s share of any investment. In some cases that is justified I think, but in others it is not. There are also the historical differences, well aired on here, with north Wales traditionally looking to Liverpool (once regarded as the de facto capital of North Wales) and NW England, mid Wales looking to the midlands, and the South looking across the Severn. These are all a consequence of geography, which has cut the regions of Wales off from each other. The other divide is linguistically - there are a number of differences between the Welsh spoken in the North (which many of its proponents regard as being “purer”) and that spoken in the south.

I did a spell of learning Welsh and we had the North/Gogledd edition of the Dosbarth Nos book.
But we would regularly be told that in north-east Wales that was not the way people say it round here ("that's what they say it in Gwynedd").
Later I found even the style over the hill in the next valley was different again!

More seriously, there are times when Cardiff and south Wales seem as far away and as irrelevant to us as London or Newcastle (which they pretty much are, geographically).
We watch TV adverts for Welsh-government-owned Cardiff Airport with much amusement, as there's little likelihood of anyone up here wanting to use it.
Not that it matters much in these digital days, but the TV aerials up here mostly point to Winter Hill, not Moel y Parc.
Jobs and things like specialist hospitals are more likely to be in Cheshire or Merseyside than in Wales.
But we do have (for the time being) Airbus and the Deeside industries which bring English folk the other way, and there are the tourists pretty much year-round.
Chester (Caer) is still the place where a lot of North Welsh business gets done.
 

PHILIPE

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Many Welsh organisations used to meet in Shrewsbury which, although over the border, is central and with good travel links.
 

Phil from Mon

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Many Welsh organisations used to meet in Shrewsbury which, although over the border, is central and with good travel links.
Yes, Chester and Shrewsbury are both good for meetings, with Shrewsbury equidistant in time from Bangor and Cardiff (far better than Llandrindod Wells, which always seemed to be Welsh Govt’s preferred location). Problems arise sometimes with funding rules though not allowing meetings outside Wales, or certain parts of Wales.
 

Gareth Marston

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Some more snippets in Julys Modern Railways that have not already been mentioned in this thread.

Rhodri Clark seems to think the 150/158 PRM alterations have already started and the lack of any 769's is glossed over. I'm sure we would have all noticed the effects of 4 units missing across the franchise if true?

He states that there will be a sub fleet of 14 x 3 car CAF's with First Class Sections and the west Wales portions will all be 2 car units. Giving a 5 car railway between Swansea and Manchester. 14 seems to many for hourly Manchester to Swansea given there's 26 x 3 car units maybe he meant 12 with Fist Class?

Conwy Valley confirmed as CAF operated.
 

kieron

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Yes, Chester and Shrewsbury are both good for meetings, with Shrewsbury equidistant in time from Bangor and Cardiff (far better than Llandrindod Wells, which always seemed to be Welsh Govt’s preferred location).
Is that just a road v rail thing? Llandrindod is on the A483, with the A470 and A44 a couple of miles away, so it is pretty easy to get to by car from most of Wales, whereas Shrewsbury isn't that close to any of it.

Meanwhile, there are three sections of railway which parallel the A483 (Chester-Gobowen, Welshpool-Newtown and Llandrindod-Pontarddulais), but you have to go all the way to Shrewsbury to get between any of them.
 

Phil from Mon

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Is that just a road v rail thing? Llandrindod is on the A483, with the A470 and A44 a couple of miles away, so it is pretty easy to get to by car from most of Wales, whereas Shrewsbury isn't that close to any of it.

Meanwhile, there are three sections of railway which parallel the A483 (Chester-Gobowen, Welshpool-Newtown and Llandrindod-Pontarddulais), but you have to go all the way to Shrewsbury to get between any of them.
Llandrindod is easy by road from South Wales, but a nightmare from up here. I did go there once by train as well, but it took for ever, as I’d guess it would from the south as well.
 

30907

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Is that just a road v rail thing? Llandrindod is on the A483, with the A470 and A44 a couple of miles away, so it is pretty easy to get to by car from most of Wales, whereas Shrewsbury isn't that close to any of it.
Or maybe it's because Shrewsbury is in E.....d? :)
 

61653 HTAFC

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Some more snippets in Julys Modern Railways that have not already been mentioned in this thread.

Rhodri Clark seems to think the 150/158 PRM alterations have already started and the lack of any 769's is glossed over. I'm sure we would have all noticed the effects of 4 units missing across the franchise if true?

He states that there will be a sub fleet of 14 x 3 car CAF's with First Class Sections and the west Wales portions will all be 2 car units. Giving a 5 car railway between Swansea and Manchester. 14 seems to many for hourly Manchester to Swansea given there's 26 x 3 car units maybe he meant 12 with Fist Class?

Conwy Valley confirmed as CAF operated.
Could it be that the extra two mean less likelihood of having to compensate first-class ticket holders in the event of a unit swap? Also provides a bit of cover for the Mk4s on Gerald if ever they're a set short.
 

Gareth Marston

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Could it be that the extra two mean less likelihood of having to compensate first-class ticket holders in the event of a unit swap? Also provides a bit of cover for the Mk4s on Gerald if ever they're a set short.

Currently theirs only 13 minute or so between arrivals at Swansea from Manchester and the next departure to Manchester. You need 9 units to cover the Swansea to Manchester diagrams like that or perhaps 10 if you lay over a full hour as a performance barrier. So 9/10 plus 2 on maintenance is enough. That's 12.

I don't think 14 would be enough to cover the non Mk4 worked Cardiff to Holyhead services or Liverpool to Cardiff.

Again were told delivery by September 2022 but the First Class not being introduced till 2024. What happens with the First Class in between?
 

Mikey C

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As I understand it there can sometimes be a belief amongst some from North Wales that South Wales Valleys are full of English people who came to work in the coal mines.
A lot of people in North Wales, certainly the eastern parts are from Manchester/Liverpool themselves!

Indeed Cardiff is very distant for people there, economically and culturally
 

krus_aragon

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Fourteen units would also be enough to operate Manchester to Carmarthen hourly (12 units, 1hr layover at CMN, and 2 spare), but again that doesn't match with what has been officially announced: "A first-class service from Swansea to Manchester from 2024"
 

47802

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Currently theirs only 13 minute or so between arrivals at Swansea from Manchester and the next departure to Manchester. You need 9 units to cover the Swansea to Manchester diagrams like that or perhaps 10 if you lay over a full hour as a performance barrier. So 9/10 plus 2 on maintenance is enough. That's 12.

I don't think 14 would be enough to cover the non Mk4 worked Cardiff to Holyhead services or Liverpool to Cardiff.

Again were told delivery by September 2022 but the First Class not being introduced till 2024. What happens with the First Class in between?

Are Mk4 there for the duration of the franchise? looks like an opportunity to get rid of them to me.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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What happens to Gerald?
The Mk4 sets (4-car passenger vehicles) don't seem to be having 1st class, so is that the end of the premier service?
Or maybe catering will be reduced to a trolley.
Catering must be an expensive provision on W&B generally.
LM/WMT don't even provide it on London-Crewe or Birmingham-Liverpool.
TPE keeps its trolleys but Northern isn't planning anything on its Connect routes.
 

daikilo

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What happens to Gerald?
The Mk4 sets (4-car passenger vehicles) don't seem to be having 1st class, so is that the end of the premier service?
Or maybe catering will be reduced to a trolley.
Catering must be an expensive provision on W&B generally.
LM/WMT don't even provide it on London-Crewe or Birmingham-Liverpool.
TPE keeps its trolleys but Northern isn't planning anything on its Connect routes.

If I recall correctly, Gerald's First Class was redesignated Business when MPs were no longer authorised to travel First. I think the restaurant seats were also opened up to Standard class passengers at that time. The menus are astonishing for a train.
 

krus_aragon

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What happens to Gerald?
The Mk4 sets (4-car passenger vehicles) don't seem to be having 1st class, so is that the end of the premier service?
Or maybe catering will be reduced to a trolley.
Catering must be an expensive provision on W&B generally.
LM/WMT don't even provide it on London-Crewe or Birmingham-Liverpool.
TPE keeps its trolleys but Northern isn't planning anything on its Connect routes.

I think the Premier service will be staying, as loco-hauled will allow the kitchen/buffet to continue.

If the catering were to be downgraded to a trolley, then why acquire replacement loco-hauled carriages, when they could have ordered three extra DMUs with First Class accommodation (à la Manchester-Swansea) and done away with the expense of hiring/operating locomotives?
 

Dai Corner

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I think the Premier service will be staying, as loco-hauled will allow the kitchen/buffet to continue.

If the catering were to be downgraded to a trolley, then why acquire replacement loco-hauled carriages, when they could have ordered three extra DMUs with First Class accommodation (à la Manchester-Swansea) and done away with the expense of hiring/operating locomotives?

I'm sure a DMU with a kitchen/buffet could be built if desired, but would be expensive as the cost of the design work could only be spread over three vehicles. Much better to use existing but redundant MkIVs.
 
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