ATW: 'No trains' after Ed Sheeran concert in Cardiff this Sunday

Why oh why doesn't the rest of the world change its procedures to fit in with the precise operating convenience of the railway in June 2018.

WelshBluebird said:

To both of those points - only because of historical reasons. No reason at all (apart from the will of the ToC) why that couldn't change. And for all new staff it really should already be the case IMO. As I have said before, the idea that ToCs try to run a timetable with just volunteers on Sundays is ludicrous. In most other industries you'd be laughed out of the place if you suggested working a public service without actually being able to properly rota staff for that day.



Well apart from the fact that, as I mentioned earlier, ATW often to run additional services after a city centre event. So much so that I'd say it is probably expected by now. However the details of these are usually only actually make clear in the weeks running up to the event, well after people would have bought the tickets and planned their journeys / hotels etc. Sure, you may have gone to a concert in york. But I bet it wasn't a concert where 60k people plus were going and similar events in the same place had a history of additional trains being put on. Considering ATW are putting additional trains on every day but Sunday, I think the assumption that there would be additional trains on Sunday a pretty solid one, and not "strange" at all.



Not at all. I just think the fact that last trains finishing before 10.30pm (and the general poor Sunday service in the area) is just not good enough.
It isn't about "the world revolving around" certain people and their social life. Its about trying to make sure the railway is a real alternative to driving for people in this country. If we are serious about getting people to use public transport, then issues like this need to be resolved.



Errr they said in the post. The meeting was the day after a stadium event which meant hotel rooms were £250+.
Sure staying halfway may have been an option, but that would have been even more fuss, and the point they were making was that for those saying those going to events in Cardiff should just book a hotel - well it isn't that simple!



Errr they said in the post. The meeting was the day after a stadium event which meant hotel rooms were £250+.
Sure staying halfway may have been an option, but that would have been even more fuss, and the point they were making was that for those saying those going to events in Cardiff should just book a hotel - well it isn't that simple!

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WelshBluebird said:

To both of those points - only because of historical reasons. No reason at all (apart from the will of the ToC) why that couldn't change. And for all new staff it really should already be the case IMO. As I have said before, the idea that ToCs try to run a timetable with just volunteers on Sundays is ludicrous. In most other industries you'd be laughed out of the place if you suggested working a public service without actually being able to properly rota staff for that day.

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We are not most other industries.

Dai Corner said:

Why should ATW do anything over and above their contract if there's nothing in it for them? When the last service of the day gets to Treherbert would you expect the driver and guard to say "let's pop down to Central and back before we book off in case anyone's waiting" without pay?

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Well apart from the fact there is a lot of untapped potential in terms of passenger numbers in the valleys right now. Look how busy the A470 into Cardiff can get as proof of that. By providing a better service (more frequent trains, earlier start to service, later end of service, more capacity) then you get some of those to move to rail. So many people I know drive to Cardiff despite having the fairly easy train journey because the service is so poor. And that is based on the weekday service. The Sunday service is simply appalling.

dk1 said:

We are not most other industries.

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Give me one good reason why it is sensible for a ToC to try to run a planned timetable when they don't know how many members of staff they will have? Its a joke. We are seeing the issues with it now with GWR where in some places Sunday services are being decimated.

Dai Corner said:

They're taking on 600 new staff. They could have different contracts with Sundays in the working week?

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dk1 said:

ASLEF wouldn't tolerate it mate. Not how it works with drivers.

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Why wouldn't ASLEF tolerate it?
If ASLEF won't tolerate new drivers having contracts with Sundays in the working week (whilst existing drivers don't), as well as not tolerating existing drivers having their contracts changed to bring Sundays into the standard week, you're basically saying there's no chance of Sundays being brought into the standard week as long as ASLEF are concerned and TOC's will have to rely on volunteers to run a Sunday service for the forseeable future. Which is ludicrous.
If the rail industry has any chance of persuading people to abandon cars in favour of public transport they need to be sure they can travel by rail or bus 7 days a week. See GWR for how it's going relying on volunteers to run a Sunday service.

6Gman said:

Voluntary work on Sundays is only part of the problem. There's also the issue of staff switching between Early Duties and Lates.

In principle I would support:

1. Putting Sunday within the standard week;
2. Having more stock;
3. Having more flexibility.

All of which would help in meeting one-off peaks.

But none of this can be secured by ATW for Sunday 24th June 2018. So they have probably made the right decision.

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Putting Sundays within the working week does not come cheap. That is going to take some very careful negotiation & crossing palms with silver. Otherwise why on earth would you agree to it?

gareth950 said:

If the rail industry has any chance of persuading people to abandon cars in favour of public transport they need to be sure they can travel by rail or bus 7 days a week. See GWR for how it's going relying on volunteers to run a Sunday service.

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Absolutely this.

tbtc said:

It's easy for people on here to throw around soundbites on various threads along the lines of "the railway should be a public service" (e.g. in terms of whether it should be nationalised, in terms of whether it should cater to various niche markets), but where do you draw the line?

Are you saying that Cardiff should have regular departures until midnight seven days a week (even when there are no gigs on)? Or only extended late departures when there are events of a particular size? An Ed Sheeran gig is presumably important enough but does the "meeting the needs of the public" test have a certain threshold, at which later departures are necessary?.

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I think people would be very selective. If a local posh nightclub, frequented mostly by celebrities and rich people, was opening extra late - would people demand trains to run to 0400? Of course not. They'd be expected to take a taxi.

Trains to help shift workers get to and form work, to connect to an airport or hospital.. all of those things could tick the box of 'public service' but I am not sure a gig does. As long as people know when booking their tickets that there are little to no trains, they have the ability to decide what to do. Book a hotel, book a taxi or don't go to the gig that night.

IF the organisers want to fund buses or trains, that's different of course. But it still only works if there are the people in place to make it possible (for the trains, and even for buses to a lesser degree).

I think the only real valid complaint would be if booked trains were cancelled, and what the TOC would then do to move people who were expecting a train to run.

gareth950 said:

Why wouldn't ASLEF tolerate it?
If ASLEF won't tolerate new drivers having contracts with Sundays in the working week (whilst existing drivers don't), as well as not tolerating existing drivers having their contracts changed to bring Sundays into the standard week, you're basically saying there's no chance of Sundays being brought into the standard week as long as ASLEF are concerned and TOC's will have to rely on volunteers to run a Sunday service for the forseeable future. Which is ludicrous.
If the rail industry has any chance of persuading people to abandon cars in favour of public transport they need to be sure they can travel by rail or bus 7 days a week. See GWR for how it's going relying on volunteers to run a Sunday service.

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It just isn't going to happen in any way you suggest. As drivers pass through training it has to be agreed at every stage with company council as to how, where & why these new drivers fit into whatever links as they progress. Not sure why they would consider people abandoning cars. They look after the interests of their collective membership.

jon0844 said:

As long as people know when booking their tickets that there are little to no trains, they have the ability to decide what to do.

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Except ATW normally provide additional trains after a stadium event, and they are for the previous 3 nights of the artist having gigs at the stadium. I'd suggest that people wouldn't entirely be crazy to think there would be additional trains on the 4th night too.

WelshBluebird said:

Well apart from the fact there is a lot of untapped potential in terms of passenger numbers in the valleys right now. Look how busy the A470 into Cardiff can get as proof of that. By providing a better service (more frequent trains, earlier start to service, later end of service, more capacity) then you get some of those to move to rail. So many people I know drive to Cardiff despite having the fairly easy train journey because the service is so poor. And that is based on the weekday service. The Sunday service is simply appalling.

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You're assuming running those extra trains would be profitable.

WelshBluebird said:

Give me one good reason why it is sensible for a ToC to try to run a planned timetable when they don't know how many members of staff they will have? Its a joke. We are seeing the issues with it now with GWR where in some places Sunday services are being decimated.

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That's down to previous managers agreeing this practice of working. Give me one good reason why any driver would give up this superb bargaining agreement without receiving something else in return?

.....

There's been various comments suggesting that extra services for concerts etc don't return anything for the TOC, is there any reason why these services aren't generally profitable, even allowing for crews being on overtime?

Anyone watching Ed Sheeran should have to walk home so they can have a good think about what they just did. Ha ha.

alangla said:

There's been various comments suggesting that extra services for concerts etc don't return anything for the TOC, is there any reason why these services aren't generally profitable, even allowing for crews being on overtime?

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I doubt anyone outside the ATW accounts department or boardroom can say for sure whether they are profitable or not. Even then, it depends how they do the sums.

dk1 said:

Putting Sundays within the working week does not come cheap. That is going to take some very careful negotiation & crossing palms with silver. Otherwise why on earth would you agree to it?

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Keilos Amey have said that:

• "there will be an extra 294 services across Wales on Sundays, an increase of 61%, creating a true 7-day service for the first time"

This will include going from the current 1tp2h on the Valleys to 2tph from 2023.
How on earth will they achieve this by relying on volunteers to run their Sunday services? Something will have to give.

dk1 said:

It just isn't going to happen in any way you suggest. As drivers pass through training it has to be agreed at every stage with company council as to how, where & why these new drivers fit into whatever links as they progress. Not sure why they would consider people abandoning cars. They look after the interests of their collective membership.

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Do ASLEF seriously think that if they went on strike over drivers having Sundays in their contracts as a working day (whilst overall still having the same number of days off per week) they would have any sympathy from the public? It would be a PR disaster and turn the public firmly against the industry. Like I have said, when explaining to people that the current crisis with GWR Sunday services is mainly due to GWR relying on volunteers to work Sundays, I've been met with shock and outrage.

WelshBluebird said:

Except ATW normally provide additional trains after a stadium event, and they are for the previous 3 nights of the artist having gigs at the stadium. I'd suggest that people wouldn't entirely be crazy to think there would be additional trains on the 4th night too.

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Perhaps, and I'm all for later Sunday services, but I think you'd surely check the nationalrail app or similar to see what is running before spending what isn't a few quid (even with the good work Ed is doing to cut down on touting). Assuming there are extra trains is dangerous, just as it is dangerous to assume ANY trains are running - there could be planned engineering works taking place on the night you're going.

gareth950 said:

Do ASLEF seriously think that if they went on strike over drivers having Sundays in their contracts as a working day (whilst overall still having the same number of days off per week) they would have any sympathy from the public? It would be a PR disaster and turn the public firmly against the industry. Like I have said, when explaining to people that the current crisis with GWR Sunday services is mainly due to GWR relying on volunteers to work Sundays, I've been met with shock and outrage.

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ASLEF presumably agreed to GTR having drivers doing xx Sundays in a month/quarter, even if not actively enforced at the moment. I don't know what they were offered as an incentive, but I assume that once the timetable issues are sorted and the rosters properly organised, Sunday shouldn't be such a problem as it was. I think the issue now is that Saturday's are becoming a problem. If a driver has to work a Sunday then they'll not do rest day work on the Saturday to have that day off instead.

AFAIK it isn't just Sunday that requires a level of RDW to operate the full service.

If anyone wants to check what the agreements between ASLEF and TOCs are see here
http://www.aslef.org.uk/page.php?id=54

For evidence that their aim to have Sundays inside the working week see page 3 under Other Findings of this document
http://www.aslef.org.uk/visageimages/Information/Rostering_best_practice_new.pdf

This research could be very useful for pushing the ASLEF’s agenda of a 35-hour week, 10 hour day, Sundays in working week and also looking at PnB's.

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Some very interesting arguments on this thread and as a member of traincrew for the TOC concerned I must tread carefully, but here goes.

First of all, to clear up a common misconception, Sundays are not entirely voluntary at ATW, that right has long since been abolished by a mutual agreement between the unions and the company. Almost all (there are a few exceptions but it's not worth going in to that one right now) traincrew are rostered a certain amount of Sundays per year. If staff work those Sundays, it's paid as overtime - but if they want them off, they need to find someone else to work it as overtime themselves instead. If nobody else wants it then they have to work it! This is normally enough to cover the regularly timetabled services.

Extra services on a weekday can be crewed either by using spare crew or using RDW volunteers. On a Sunday however this is much more difficult - there are normally no spares on a Sunday so all extra services require volunteers, but they are harder to come by. This is partially because fewer staff want to work on a Sunday off (we all have families after all!) and partially because a common feature in the roster is a week of earlies followed by a week of lates. If the swap between lates and earlies is over the Sunday (and at many depots it is) then you end up working late Saturday night, have the Sunday off, and work early on Monday. In these circumstances it is near impossible to work overtime on the Sunday and still be available to work ontime on the Monday, given the requirement for at least 12 hours between shifts.

It's also worth pointing out that a lot of maintenance on units takes place on a Sunday (hence the unpopular but necessary use of 150s on long distance services on Sundays) - and that the company is already short of units as it is, without taking away maintenance time and using them on extra services.

The new franchise includes an expansion of Sunday services, so it is likely that some changes to the above agreements will need to be made - but until that happens, those are just some of the constraints the company is working with.

It's also worth pointing out that when ATW did try and run lots of extra services for the Champions League final last year, they were slated both in the press and on this very forum for all the disruption it caused to their services on the rest of the network

Now these may not be the actual reasons why the decision was made - I'm not privy to that information - but under the circumstances I think they deserve credit for being able to run extra services on at least 3 out of the 4 nights, despite the severe constraints of a terribly short sited decision to issue a no growth franchise 15 years ago.

The timing of the concert is ridiculous. There is absolutely no need for it to be on so late on a Sunday night.

Similarly it's about time the WRU held all home Saturday internationals at 1430. If they get a new lucrative TV deal with Sky, BT or similar, I hope this kickoff time is mandated. People can have a drink before and after the game and not have to rush to stand in queues.

Similarly all Six Nations games should be scheduled for 1300 and 1530 on Saturdays.

Robertj21a said:

Why couldn't you take any food or drink ?

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I could have if I had known (we were not told it was a glitch so I assume it is not a catered service) but

1. Every single time I have travelled Bangor to Cardiff there has been at least a trolley, barring unforeseen circumstances
2. This is a 4 1/2 hour journey on a flagship route. It is fair to expect catering I think and I can’t think of any comparable journey that has not had something to eat or drink.
3. Online planners do not give catering information.
4. Even if I had known, not sure my brain works well enough at 4.30 in the morning to remember to brew a flask and make a sandwich. It’s as much as I can do to get to the station safely.

Dai Corner said:

Or book accomodation allowing you to catch a train at a more civilised hour?

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See my original post, cheapest room was around £250. I always travel down the night before if I can.

6Gman said:

To be fair I'm not sure there are many places open in Bangor at 5am

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There is the superb station cafe open from 4, if I had known, I would have bought stuff there. That is what my wife did yesterday.

Phil from Mon said:

See my original post, cheapest room was around £250. I always travel down the night before if I can.

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I meant somewhere en route such as Hereford where the combination of room price and departure time was acceptable. But this is off-topic for the thread so let's leave it there.

WelshBluebird said:

Except ATW normally provide additional trains after a stadium event, and they are for the previous 3 nights of the artist having gigs at the stadium. I'd suggest that people wouldn't entirely be crazy to think there would be additional trains on the 4th night too.

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Never assume

gareth950 said:

Keilos Amey have said that:

• "there will be an extra 294 services across Wales on Sundays, an increase of 61%, creating a true 7-day service for the first time"

This will include going from the current 1tp2h on the Valleys to 2tph from 2023.
How on earth will they achieve this by relying on volunteers to run their Sunday services? Something will have to give.



Do ASLEF seriously think that if they went on strike over drivers having Sundays in their contracts as a working day (whilst overall still having the same number of days off per week) they would have any sympathy from the public? It would be a PR disaster and turn the public firmly against the industry. Like I have said, when explaining to people that the current crisis with GWR Sunday services is mainly due to GWR relying on volunteers to work Sundays, I've been met with shock and outrage.

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Whether it has sympathy from the public or not is neither here nor there. Exactly the same scenario is happening with Greater Anglia. Now the famous 'H' word harmonisation is on the agenda again with Sundays in the working week. Now this has to be agreed by all 3 of the pre 2004 franchises. It's not always commonly known but those who worked for Anglia, Great Eastern & West Anglia/Stansted Express are all still on their original respective contracts. National Express tried over & over again without success & Abellio refused to even try under the short term contracts awarded. This is now under discussion again with management/unions at an advanced stage. The proposed offer however has not gone down well with at least two of these due to the loss of certain very important working agreements. Only time will tell with the Welsh franchise on exactly what their members are offered financially to see if this outweighs the changes proposed.

dk1 said:

Never assume


Whether it has sympathy from the public or not is neither here nor there. Exactly the same scenario is happening with Greater Anglia. Now the famous 'H' word harmonisation is on the agenda again with Sundays in the working week. Now this has to be agreed by all 3 of the pre 2004 franchises. It's not always commonly known but those who worked for Anglia, Great Eastern & West Anglia/Stansted Express are all still on their original respective contracts. National Express tried over & over again without success & Abellio refused to even try under the short term contracts awarded. This is now under discussion again with management/unions at an advanced stage. The proposed offer however has not gone down well with at least two of these due to the loss of certain very important working agreements. Only time will tell with the Welsh franchise on exactly what their members are offered financially to see if this outweighs the changes proposed.

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AIUI fortunately with most of the W&B franchise there's no Harmonisation required, just getting Sundays in the week. Not as easy as it sounds, but as Craigybagel has said, ATW crews have committed Sundays. Any move to bring them inside will require a vote by staff and it'll be split down the middle. Those that swap out of their Sundays and never work them will vote against it as they don't want to work Sundays. Those that do work their booked or extra Sundays will vote for it as they'll get a pay rise for something they do already. Whether it'll pass or not depends where the majority sits.

FWIW, Cardiff depot's ASLEF branch is fairly hot on it, and things like having to work your booked Sunday if cover isn't available is well enforced by both sides

tiptoptaff said:

AIUI fortunately with most of the W&B franchise there's no Harmonisation required, just getting Sundays in the week. Not as easy as it sounds, but as Craigybagel has said, ATW crews have committed Sundays. Any move to bring them inside will require a vote by staff and it'll be split down the middle. Those that swap out of their Sundays and never work them will vote against it as they don't want to work Sundays. Those that do work their booked or extra Sundays will vote for it as they'll get a pay rise for something they do already. Whether it'll pass or not depends where the majority sits.

FWIW, Cardiff depot's ASLEF branch is fairly hot on it, and things like having to work your booked Sunday if cover isn't available is well enforced by both sides

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This may be a bit radical, but why not give people the choice?

Dai Corner said:

This may be a bit radical, but why not give people the choice?

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Defeats the point of collective bargaining.

tiptoptaff said:

Defeats the point of collective bargaining.

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The bargain would still be made collectively, but would satisfy all the workers instead of some of them.

Dai Corner said:

This may be a bit radical, but why not give people the choice?

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They will get a choice, a democratic one.

6Gman said:

To be fair I'm not sure there are many places open in Bangor at 5am

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So you prepare something at home and take it with you!