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A guard by any other name...

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Deafdoggie

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What, if any, is the difference between a Guard, Conductor, Senior Conductor, and Train Manager?
I thought they might just be different names by different companies for the same job. But some companies have more than one!
 
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island

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In some cases they are different staff seniority grades. In others they are just someone’s idea of how to “modernise” job titles because “guards” are “old-fashioned”. In others still they separate staff whose job includes the duties of a guard per the rulebook from staff who only sell tickets and provide customer service.
 

cactustwirly

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Train Managers tend to be on IC services, and Guards/Conductors are normally on regional services.
 

swt_passenger

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Some are called senior conductor, but I’ve never heard mention of a junior conductor...
 
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I thought it was Train Manager when they had other on board staff to manage during the trip. ie Customer Hosts.
 

PaulLothian

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Back in, I think, the 1970s, on an evening London to Edinburgh service, a Yorkshire voice over the loudspeakers. "Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. This is the guard speaking... or the conductor... or whatever they are calling us this week..."
 

Spartacus

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It’s all daft, as depending on operator the Train Manager can be driver, guard or on train staff manager, take your pick!
 

Bromley boy

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It also leads to oddities like the "Trainee Senior Conductor" title, for persons who are being trained up to the role:

see https://recruit.wmtrains.co.uk/Appl...nee-Senior-Conductor---Bletchley--Northampton

:rolleyes: Good grief. What a load of utter corporate bullsh*t.

What are they pumping through their Bletchley and Northampton pipelines, I wonder?! And there I was thinking they were in the business of operating trains.

I hope anyone thinking of applying to be a senior-chief-executive-conductor-in-charge (ie a guard) decides against it after reading that utter tripe.

EDIT: I also note that whoever wrote that advert has failed to delete the standard template text saying “brief description of job - what’s in it for the candidate.” And has published it within the advert, clearly without having proofread it.

How embarrassing.
 
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whhistle

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You get people like Cross Country who have both because they're old roles from old companies.

Senior Conductors from ex Central Trains.
Train Managers from ex Virgin Cross Country.

Terms couldn't be agreed/merged so Cross Country left it with separate conditions. London Midland was the same with ex Central and ex Silverlink people. They couldn't agree merged terms so left the two grades.
 

Deafdoggie

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You get people like Cross Country who have both because they're old roles from old companies.

Senior Conductors from ex Central Trains.
Train Managers from ex Virgin Cross Country.

Terms couldn't be agreed/merged so Cross Country left it with separate conditions. London Midland was the same with ex Central and ex Silverlink people. They couldn't agree merged terms so left the two grades.
So the job is the same? Just different name and pay?
 

61653 HTAFC

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At least in part, it's branding/management-speak: the same mentality leading to vacancy adverts for "Urban Environmental Executives" (street sweepers) and "Customer Contact Consultants" (receptionists).

The same mentality that leads to tone-deaf advertising campaigns like VTEC's (in)famous "Arrive Awesome" nonsense. Yes, there are bigger problems, but there's nothing like corporate BS to leave you feeling unclean. :rolleyes:
 

Carlisle

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Some are called senior conductor, but I’ve never heard mention of a junior conductor...
Never heard of the grade of Assitant Train Manager either, although I do appreciate you can get someone booked to assist another on a particular service.
 
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LowLevel

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Conductor and senior conductor go back to the 1980s. Conductors worked for NSE and Regional Railways. Senior conductors worked for Intercity (with I believe a few isolated exceptions) and got paid more. Come privatisation on a few National Express TOCs (Central and Silverlink) they moved everyone up to the senior conductor rate of pay and abolished the conductor grade as an early pay deal. Hence that name has stuck.

Train managers tend to be restructured senior conductors on IC services.

The only company who still use conductor and senior conductor in the original sense is Greater Anglia but just to confuse the matter further both grades work both local and IC services.

The jobs are different. They might carry out the role of train guard, but where I work for example train managers are responsible for managing the other on-board crew and service provision and senior conductors are not. Virgin WC take it further and their train managers look after their team and do things like find cover sickness vacancies.

It's all just a job title in the end. They all carry out the guard's role but different jobs on different types of service have other duties as well.
 

185

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A guard is a guard, driver is a driver, inspector is an inspector, trolley steward is a trolley steward.

I do wonder whether those who came into the industry and renamed all our grades confusing the hell out of the customers actually thought how the public would percieve the job titles.

A revenue protection & prosecutions officer is just a pile of words.
A customer host works in a swanky nightclub and presents the news at 10'o clock.
And as for me, my orchestra is pretty rubbish.
The only ones who (mostly) got off lightly are drivers. Or brake, throttle, and walking slowly to train operative. :P
 

cactustwirly

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To me 'Guard' sounds quite old fashioned.
'Train Manager' sounds more with the times.
 

43096

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At least in part, it's branding/management-speak: the same mentality leading to vacancy adverts for "Urban Environmental Executives" (street sweepers) and "Customer Contact Consultants" (receptionists).

The same mentality that leads to tone-deaf advertising campaigns like VTEC's (in)famous "Arrive Awesome" nonsense. Yes, there are bigger problems, but there's nothing like corporate BS to leave you feeling unclean. :rolleyes:
“Train Presentation Team” is another of those stupid titles. You mean you’re the cleaner....

“Arrive awesome” was both Virgin franchises wasn’t it? I seem to recall a tongue-in-cheek advert in response from Chiltern (in similar style to their “A rise Sir Richard?” effort).
 

Jonfun

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I thought it was Train Manager when they had other on board staff to manage during the trip. ie Customer Hosts.

Sometimes. But then you get some TOCs where the Train Managers don't manage anyone but themselves, and other TOCs where Senior Conductors manage other onboard staff.

It's just a job title, really.
 

lincolnshire

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A guard is a guard, driver is a driver, inspector is an inspector, trolley steward is a trolley steward.

I like this one especially the Trolley Steward, while on a X-Country train the guard / train manager said there will be an announcement next from the Catering Manager. He duly reported what was on offer on the trolley and when the trolley arrived there was only one person, so he was the catering manager then? managing himself?
I was quite happy if they had called me toilet attendant as long as they paid me my rate of pay, some just wanted the title that went with the job to make them look good its money that counts not titles in the end as thats what we all come to work for.
 

Deafdoggie

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XC actually call them “Retail Service Manager” maybe they look after the First Class Host?
 

pemma

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I like this one especially the Trolley Steward, while on a X-Country train the guard / train manager said there will be an announcement next from the Catering Manager. He duly reported what was on offer on the trolley and when the trolley arrived there was only one person, so he was the catering manager then? managing himself?

Being a manager doesn't have to mean you manage people but if you don't have decision making responsibility or manage people then you're not a manager.
 

6Gman

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At least in part, it's branding/management-speak: the same mentality leading to vacancy adverts for "Urban Environmental Executives" (street sweepers) and "Customer Contact Consultants" (receptionists).

The same mentality that leads to tone-deaf advertising campaigns like VTEC's (in)famous "Arrive Awesome" nonsense. Yes, there are bigger problems, but there's nothing like corporate BS to leave you feeling unclean. :rolleyes:

Has anybody ever actually advertised for an "Urban Environmental Executive"?

Or is this just urban myth territory?
 

61653 HTAFC

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Has anybody ever actually advertised for an "Urban Environmental Executive"?

Or is this just urban myth territory?
It was just an example of that sort of thing- we've all seen similar creatively-worded job titles.
So not so much "Urban myth" territory, more an understanding that a casual post on an internet forum needn't be held to the same standards as a peer-reviewed journal. :rolleyes:
 

6Gman

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It was just an example of that sort of thing- we've all seen similar creatively-worded job titles.
So not so much "Urban myth" territory, more an understanding that a casual post on an internet forum needn't be held to the same standards as a peer-reviewed journal. :rolleyes:

So you just made it up basically. :s

Anyway, to get back on topic. Years ago there were Guards in most (all?) settings, though even then there were distinctions between passenger guards and goods guards.

With the arrival of paytrains and the development of a commercial role [my recollection from the 1960s is that on long distance trains any ticket checking on-train was by Travelling Ticket Inspectors rather than Guards] the role of Conductor / Conductor Guard was created. Then Senior Conductors appeared, largely - I suspect - to give greater status for the bloke (and they were almost all blokes in those days) on the 1130 Euston - Glasgow over the bloke on the 0652 Stoke - Manchester stopper.

This was further upgraded to Train Manager for what had been Senior Conductors; again, I suspect, a status thing. To be fair, the guy who takes charge of all passenger-related stuff on an 11-coach Pendolino from Euston to Glasgow probably merits a better title than Conductor (even with the Senior prefix).

It's also worth pointing out that the term "Conductor" which would have been widely understood in the 1960s/1970s to be someone who would sell you a ticket (on a bus) would be rather less familiar now since bus conductors are vanishingly rare these days.

Of course, in Manchester bus conductors were known as Guards, but that's Manc for you. :D
 

virgintrain1

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Being a manager doesn't have to mean you manage people but if you don't have decision making responsibility or manage people then you're not a manager.

XC Retail Service Managers are capable of doing other tasks such as being classed competent to work a portion of a double set. Technically they are above FCHs although in practice there is little staff management involved.
 
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whhistle

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So the job is the same? Just different name and pay?
Essentially yes.
There will be slight differences here and there but they all perform the same sort of function... revenue, train management, dispatch.
 
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