When was the Brighton Mainline last as bad as tonight (02/07)?

I think even during snow drifts around 8 years ago things were better! Trains currently can't enter Brighton as all platforms are occupied.

TimG said:

I think even during snow drifts around 8 years ago things were better! Trains currently can't enter Brighton as all platforms are occupied.

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Occupied by what?
Broken trains?
Protesters?
Union pickets?

On the slows too. Something had broken down at Anerley.
I couldn’t understand why our West Croydons ran fast from New Cross Gate (6 stops away) until I looked at a track map, wow no crossovers on the whole line!

from https://www.southernrailway.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/service-updates

Currently ongoing:

Multiple signal faults between Haywards Heath and Brighton means that services are running at a reduced speed, as drivers have to come to a stand before the faulty signals and gain verbal permission from the signaller before proceeding. This is causing major delays. Some services are being cancelled to help prevent further congestion in the area.

A points failure at Redhill means that platform 1 is currently out of use. Some services are able to run into alternative platforms however congestion is expected in the area whilst awaiting platforms to become available.

Earlier today:

The 16:47 London Bridge to Caterham service came to a stand at Whyteleafe South with an obstruction on the line. This blocked the line towards Caterham for approximately 15 minutes, causing trains to develop a queue behind. This service has now moved.

Earlier today the 15:40 London Bridge to Coulsdon Town broke down at Penge West, blocking one of the lines from London Bridge to Norwood Junction. The fault was investigated by engineers on site, however it needed a 'rescue train' to move it. It has now sucessfully been moved and the line has reopened.

Absolutely horrific journeys tonight between Haywards Heath and Brighton.... people stuck on trains for 2 hours. Thameslink trains were already leaving passengers at london bridge as they were so packed so it made for an all round horrific experience. Drivers were despairing too - mine eventually made an announcement saying he had now given up too

Surely there must be a more efficient way when train positions are known to give multiple trains permission to proceed at caution rather than it taking so long and having to be done one train at a time. Automated Radio Comms/GPS/whatever there must be a better backup solution than having trains of 2000 people not moving an inch for 40 minutes.

ianBR said:

Absolutely horrific journeys tonight between Haywards Heath and Brighton.... people stuck on trains for 2 hours. Thameslink trains were already leaving passengers at london bridge as they were so packed so it made for an all round horrific experience. Drivers were despairing too - mine eventually made an announcement saying he had now given up too

Surely there must be a more efficient way when train positions are known to give multiple trains permission to proceed at caution rather than it taking so long and having to be done one train at a time. Radio comms/GPS/whatever there must be a better backup solution than having trains of 2000 people not moving an inch for 40 minutes.

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Isn’t the view taken that that’s infinitely preferable to having trains of 2000 people slam into each other? It’s one if those things, if safety is compromised to prevent delays, then it’s only a matter of time until something truly ‘horrific’ happens.

Incredibly frustrating staff at London Bridge. On a train leaving because people couldn't board - not a lack of space, just a lack of people moving down - " stand back another train will be here in xxx mins". Didn't seem to be aware that they don't stop at the same places... could have better used the time getting people to move down..

Three major issues on the Brighton Mainline tonight:
- A train failed between Penge West and Anerley on the Down Slow line and had to be moved back to Penge West, then evacuated onto the platform. This could only be done once the Overground trains behind it had moved. The train could not be driven from the country end cab. Fitters attended and attempted to rebuild it by physically swapping many of the cab components between each end of the train (!) but this also failed and the train then had to be rescued and taken to Selhurst.
- There is an ongoing fault with one of the systems which checks the integrity of the electronic messages within a particular signalling function (as it happens, a rather crucial one), meaning a number of signals between the Wivelsfield area and Plumpton/Preston Park ended up displaying unexpected red aspects (as a failsafe).
- A custom-made hydraulics component failed within a particularly complicated junction south of Redhill. This meant a number of Southern and GWR trains became trapped.

Add into this a number of level crossing issues, a couple of more minor train breakdowns and obstructions on the line, and the current TL issues...

A "perfect" storm really!

ianBR said:

Surely there must be a more efficient way when train positions are known to give multiple trains permission to proceed at caution rather than it taking so long and having to be done one train at a time. Automated Radio Comms/GPS/whatever there must be a better backup solution than having trains of 2000 people not moving an inch for 40 minutes.

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You don't need any of that. What you need is POSA (Proceed On Sight Authority) working, which is being installed on some busier mainlines, such as the Thameslink Core. However, it's not an instant rollout.

https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GERT8000-PoSA Iss 3.pdf

TimG said:

Incredibly frustrating staff at London Bridge. On a train leaving because people couldn't board - not a lack of space, just a lack of people moving down - " stand back another train will be here in xxx mins". Didn't seem to be aware that they don't stop at the same places... could have better used the time getting people to move down..

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To a certain point, service calling patterns are meant to be harmonised to a limited number of specific patterns running at a specified frequency during disruptions of given types. What this means in practice is that all trains on a route should be limited to the number of variations in where they stop. Unfortunately these harmonisations are hard to organise in the middle of the task of just getting things moving in the first place, which is hard enough for the Thameslink controllers right now.

It's also worth pointing out that staff have been specifically instructed not to announce the full calling patterns of Thameslink trains, and to let the CIS do its job.

"Incredibly frustrating staff"

Plenty of things can happen at anytime on our railway. When things go bad, they really can go bad, but safety is paramount.

I think most railway staff do a pretty good job and depending on there actual role can only pass on information that they know or find out or what is passed onto them by control or whoever.
I'm a driver myself so don't get asked questions as much as other staff for obvious reasons, but i have seen plenty of times platform staff who are actually trying to assist half a dozen passengers at once with differing question, who quite often seemingly, not properly listening or understanding what they are being told while actually trying to dispatch trains on time.
Do you really think that all people because they are asked to move down into the train will actually do that? Well not from what i have witnessed.

Don't get me wrong I, like many other railway workers (not all i know) do sympathise with passengers frustrations but once again it's normally the wrong people getting criticised and even getting abused.

It's actually a breath of fresh air when you hear a passenger say thanks for getting some form of assistance.

Looks like the signalling issue hasn't been sorted overnight and the problems are continuing this morning.

DanTrain said:

slam into each other?

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Why is it everything or nothing? On a bright, sunny day with perfect visibility on a straight track, there's a difference between 0mph, 30mph and 100mph.

tsr said:

- A train failed between Penge West and Anerley on the Down Slow line and had to be moved back to Penge West, then evacuated onto the platform. This could only be done once the Overground trains behind it had moved. The train could not be driven from the country end cab. Fitters attended and attempted to rebuild it by physically swapping many of the cab components between each end of the train (!) but this also failed and the train then had to be rescued and taken to Selhurst.

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Out of interest was it a 377 or another 455 ‘heap o’ junk’ sit down?

Are there any countries that have a more relaxed policy on allowing trains to pass through red signals? In the Netherlands, for example, it seems that signal problems means no trains. I could be wrong, but that sounds like they don't have a process of allowing trains through red signals and you have to wait until the signal failure is fixed.

FOH said:

Out of interest was it a 377 or another 455 ‘heap o’ junk’ sit down?

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455 that sat down, brakes would not release at all.

tsr said:

You don't need any of that. What you need is POSA (Proceed On Sight Authority) working, which is being installed on some busier mainlines, such as the Thameslink Core. However, it's not an instant rollout.

https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GERT8000-PoSA Iss 3.pdf

.

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POSA is fine for some situations, but not so great if the failure prevents the POSA from operating or has knocked out power, routes are locked or points not showing detected.

Brighton Mainline signalling issues now seem to be stabilised. However, the two 171 units working 1E16 have decided to go kaput on the Up Fast at Brockley, which is messing up a lot of things. The defect appears to be with the brake interlock in the ex-Scotrail unit at the country end, surprise surprise...

When it rains, it really does pour on the Brighton line.

GB said:

POSA is fine for some situations, but not so great if the failure prevents the POSA from operating or has knocked out power, routes are locked or points not showing detected.

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None of these applied to the signal failure in question.

tsr said:

To a certain point, service calling patterns are meant to be harmonised to a limited number of specific patterns running at a specified frequency during disruptions of given types. What this means in practice is that all trains on a route should be limited to the number of variations in where they stop. Unfortunately these harmonisations are hard to organise in the middle of the task of just getting things moving in the first place, which is hard enough for the Thameslink controllers right now.

It's also worth pointing out that staff have been specifically instructed not to announce the full calling patterns of Thameslink trains, and to let the CIS do its job.

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I would say the harmonisations you are talking about are not possible with the new TL Timetable. As the poster mentions they were at London Bridge, where there is only 1 Littlehampton a day, a couple of East Grinstead trains a day and a Rainham service which does not go via East Croydon. This is the problem at London Bridge, we have commuters waiting on narrow platforms for their trains, and it is not simple as waiting for the next one as in the case of Littlehampton and East Grinstead there is/may not be one.

I was thinking it might be better to send the Rainham service into Platform 3, this way all trains at Platform 4 go to East Croydon then. Is there really any point in sending a Southbound train into this platform? Northbound I guess is fine.

I never said it did.

DanTrain said:

Isn’t the view taken that that’s infinitely preferable to having trains of 2000 people slam into each other?

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This is where I don't understand though.
Going forward at 15mph from a signal into an already occupied block would mean the driver has plenty of time to bring the train to a stop before "slamming into each other". I mean, the trains even have yellow ends to help drivers see!

While I understand you're simple moving one problem to another area, it could create space. Then when it's clearing up, each train is signalled from the light as normal.

But then I have organised and witnessed it before. Two 4-car trains, one in a platform, the other coming in behind it, eventually coupling and running as one unit - means one less physical train in the way in a block.

westcoaster said:

455 that sat down, brakes would not release at all.

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Cheers, guessed as much. Mine this morning had a broken set of doors, no out of service sign. The 455s need a quick and painful death

whhistle said:

This is where I don't understand though.
Going forward at 15mph from a signal into an already occupied block would mean the driver has plenty of time to bring the train to a stop before "slamming into each other". I mean, the trains even have yellow ends to help drivers see!

While I understand you're simple moving one problem to another area, it could create space. Then when it's clearing up, each train is signalled from the light as normal.

But then I have organised and witnessed it before. Two 4-car trains, one in a platform, the other coming in behind it, eventually coupling and running as one unit - means one less physical train in the way in a block.

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I could see that in specific area, for example clearing a junction, this would be preferable and probably workable. I don't see the benefit of doing it routinly in disruption though, that would just bunch trains up and so it would take even longer to clear.

Out of interest, is there any precedent for trains coupling during disruption to run as one? If two 4/8 car 377s were to couple, that would surely reduce the disruption, any only require the cancellation of one service (providing they have SDO)?

radamfi said:

Are there any countries that have a more relaxed policy on allowing trains to pass through red signals? In the Netherlands, for example, it seems that signal problems means no trains. I could be wrong, but that sounds like they don't have a process of allowing trains through red signals and you have to wait until the signal failure is fixed.

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Yes, Germany and they have been having real issues with it, exactly as earlier poster mentioned, trains running into the back of others.