Kirkstall Forge Station Parking

Condor7 · 5 Jul 2018

i went to Kirkstall Forge Station yesterday with the intention of spending a while on the platform doing a bit of spotting and photos etc. It’s a while since I was last there and the station car park which holds about 100 cars at a guess was completely full. There are other car parks but they are for the offices and you need a pass to get in. Apart from a handful of on street parking places (all of which were taken) the rest of the area is double yellow lines. I stopped in a ‘pull in’ lay-by for the main office block to gather my thoughts and decide what to do, when immediately someone from the office block came out and asked what my intention were as I could not park there. (This was literally less than one minute after pulling in) They were very pleasant and explained that this was an increasing problem and if the car park was full the only alternative was to drive back to the main road (which is all double yellow lines) and onto a residential area and use the on street parking, which if you are familiar with the area is a considerable distance, and still a busy road if you wanted to leave your car there for several hours.

Does anyone know if there is any intention to provide more parking because if I wanting to park and ride on a regular basis it would certainly put me off?

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thejuggler · 5 Jul 2018

Both Apperley Bridge and Kirkstall Forge have exceeded expectations in terms of passengers numbers.

Apperley Bridge reached the 5 year expected passenger numbers within 3 months of opening! If you aren't in the car park by 8.30am you are lucky to get a space. Last time I used a Leeds bound service I was on the platform 10 minutes before the 8.06 service was due with about 5 others. Within 5 minutes there must have been close on 200 passengers waiting for the service.

Kirkstall Forge struggled at first as it only had one service an hour, it now has two so is much busier.

Apperley Bridge car park is being doubled, but there is land available. Kirkstall Forge may not be as easy as the land is being developed for housing. A decked car park may be the only option.

Killingworth · 5 Jul 2018

Condor7 said:
i went to Kirkstall Forge Station yesterday with the intention of spending a while on the platform doing a bit of spotting and photos etc. It’s a while since I was last there and the station car park which holds about 100 cars at a guess was completely full. There are other car parks but they are for the offices and you need a pass to get in. Apart from a handful of on street parking places (all of which were taken) the rest of the area is double yellow lines. I stopped in a ‘pull in’ lay-by for the main office block to gather my thoughts and decide what to do, when immediately someone from the office block came out and asked what my intention were as I could not park there. (This was literally less than one minute after pulling in) They were very pleasant and explained that this was an increasing problem and if the car park was full the only alternative was to drive back to the main road (which is all double yellow lines) and onto a residential area and use the on street parking, which if you are familiar with the area is a considerable distance, and still a busy road if you wanted to leave your car there for several hours.

Does anyone know if there is any intention to provide more parking because if I wanting to park and ride on a regular basis it would certainly put me off?

When first opened Kirkstall Forge was in open space with hourly trains virtually unused. Now it's got half hourly stops and premises are occupied the flaw we spotted in the first week has come to pass, and even quicker than my companion and I foresaw.

It's an issue at stations across the nation, but with all the planning and money expended on brand new Kirkstall Forge on an open site there must be an outline plan for more parking, surely. It's hardly as if it's popularity wasn't foreseen.

More pictures from August 2016 at; https://www.flickr.com/photos/59662214@N06/albums/72157670859013518

HowardGWR · 5 Jul 2018

Isn't the car parking free in this area? Perhaps they will start charging?

55z · 5 Jul 2018

I understand a business case is being prepared to extend car park at Apperley Bridge and land has already been purchased so is available subject to planning permission.

johntea · 5 Jul 2018

Doesn't Kirkstall Forge also have a large business building / offices literally at the station now too?

thejuggler · 5 Jul 2018

Covered by OP:

"There are other car parks but they are for the offices and you need a pass to get in".

Charging for parking at some West Yorkshire station car parks was suggested in 2014 as part of franchise renewal. It never happened.

Allwinter_Kit · 5 Jul 2018

WYCA seem very keen on keeping parking at stations free to encourage park and ride.

Which is good, i suppose, as it works - the trouble is for the communities around the stations which are filled with abandoned cars as overflow!

I think Steeton and Silsden is also due to get a second storey of carparking to try and mitigate some of that there - although they could also increase parking by simply making it easier to walk to from Airedale Hospital way or from Silsden - currently driving is often the easiest way by far for these short trips (route from Airedale Hospital/Eastburn is long as there are no cut-throughs via the housing estates due to the industrial park/abandoned VOSA testing facility, whilst coming from Silsden one has to run across an uncontrolled crossing of the dual carriageway)!

Anyway, back to Kirkstall....

Is there not scope to improve active/sustainable access too? So not just add a deck to the carpark but also improve bus links to the surrounding area/cycle access from the canal and other potential routes?

61653 HTAFC · 5 Jul 2018

The obvious solution for the OP is surely to arrive by train if you're wanting to do some spotting and photting? 2tph now!

Doesn't solve the wider problem, mind...

Killingworth · 5 Jul 2018

For those unfamiliar with Kirkstall Forge look here; https://www.kirkstallforge.com/about/

South Yorkshire PTE also has a free park and ride polcy and it's very successful where there is a frequent rail service alongside. Residential and business roads nearby get swamped with overflow cars - a feature familar to those living or working near commuter stations almost everywhere, nationwide.

Northern is trying to raise £2 a day at some of their Derbyshire stations like Grindleford, Hathersage, Dronfield and others. Do users pay? No way, they park on nearby roads. At Chesterfield and Sheffield it's likely to cost over £15 a day and the car parks are full. Longer distance business travellers are different.

The free car park at Dore & Totley (owned and provided by SYPTE and leased to Northern) was expanded from about 25 spaces to 125 5 years ago. Like Kirkstall Forge it was full within a year and would fill again within another year if doubled in size - if free. That balance between free and maybe £20 a day is hard to gauge and a challenge when considering building more expensive capacity.

Kirkstall Forge's planners have produced a successful development and transport facility, but seem to have been too timid to plan for the station's success.

bluenoxid · 5 Jul 2018

Allwinter_Kit said:
WYCA seem very keen on keeping parking at stations free to encourage park and ride.

Which is good, i suppose, as it works - the trouble is for the communities around the stations which are filled with abandoned cars as overflow!

I think Steeton and Silsden is also due to get a second storey of carparking to try and mitigate some of that there - although they could also increase parking by simply making it easier to walk to from Airedale Hospital way or from Silsden - currently driving is often the easiest way by far for these short trips (route from Airedale Hospital/Eastburn is long as there are no cut-throughs via the housing estates due to the industrial park/abandoned VOSA testing facility, whilst coming from Silsden one has to run across an uncontrolled crossing of the dual carriageway)!

Anyway, back to Kirkstall....

Is there not scope to improve active/sustainable access too? So not just add a deck to the carpark but also improve bus links to the surrounding area/cycle access from the canal and other potential routes?

Steeton

It would take so little to deliver the short cut through the industrial estate. £750k has been allocated by WYCA to deliver the paperwork for the bridge over the dual carriageway

You are spot on with regards to sustainable access to stations. New Pudsey is another example

For more parking spaces at Kirkstall Forge, I wonder if Pollard Lane is an option from Leeds/Bradford Road

xotGD · 5 Jul 2018

O the subject of Kirkstall Forge, does anyone know how easy it is to access the canal towpath from the station?

Grumpy · 5 Jul 2018

Allwinter_Kit said:
I think Steeton and Silsden is also due to get a second storey of carparking to try and mitigate some of that there - although they could also increase parking by simply making it easier to walk to from Airedale Hospital way or from Silsden

The most effective way to solve the Silsden parking problems would be to reopen Crosshills

jayah · 5 Jul 2018

bluenoxid said:
Steeton

It would take so little to deliver the short cut through the industrial estate. £750k has been allocated by WYCA to deliver the paperwork for the bridge over the dual carriageway

You are spot on with regards to sustainable access to stations. New Pudsey is another example

For more parking spaces at Kirkstall Forge, I wonder if Pollard Lane is an option from Leeds/Bradford Road

It is quite sad that the success of the railway is judged by its ability to saturate the local road network and build huge expanses of tarmac for the parking of cars across multiple decks. Lack of land then becomes a major constraint for the railway. Better walking routes, cycling routes, cycle storage and integrated public transport are needed.

Fisherman80 · 5 Jul 2018

Grumpy said:
The most effective way to solve the Silsden parking problems would be to reopen Crosshills

Agree with you on that one Grumpy!

Cakestall · 6 Jul 2018

xotGD said:
O the subject of Kirkstall Forge, does anyone know how easy it is to access the canal towpath from the station?

Access to the canal is very easy just leave the Shipley Platform through the gap in the fence and follow the path into the trees. Turn left and its 300 yards or so and heads towards Leeds, turn Right and you run parallel with the canal till you reach Pollard Lane and the Abbey Inn.
Being local I was interested in the possibility of buying one of the residential properties, but have been put off by the fact that the area will either be swamped by commuters cars and probably the eyesore of a multi story car park or will require draconian parking restrictions to preserve a pleasant environment.. At Horsforth suburban streets up to three quarters of a mile from the station are clogged up with commuter parking.
What is required is a mega park and ride on the Ring Road at Rodley. Call it Horsforth Vale or something. A Station there would dwarf Appleby Bridge and Kirkstall usages. However i suspect this is a a problem that will exist until we are all running round in driver less pods owned on a pooled basis in a few decades.

Condor7 · 6 Jul 2018

61653 HTAFC said:
The obvious solution for the OP is surely to arrive by train if you're wanting to do some spotting and photting? 2tph now!

Doesn't solve the wider problem, mind...

Yes I agree now I know, and I easily solved the problem by driving to another location where I could park close to the railway line. My posting was however really looking at the problem from the point of view of someone arriving by car to catch a train. It’s bad enough you have to park on residential roads but as mentioned the nearest ones are a considerable distance away and involve a long walk back. It’s strange that the one office block at the moment has two very large car parks which have obviously been planned for and yet no one seems to have had the same foresight for the station.

bluenoxid · 6 Jul 2018

Cakestall said:
What is required is a mega park and ride on the Ring Road at Rodley. Call it Horsforth Vale or something. A Station there would dwarf Appleby Bridge and Kirkstall usages. However i suspect this is a a problem that will exist until we are all running round in driver less pods owned on a pooled basis in a few decades.

Apart from the new builds, that site is quite far from established settlements. I would argue that the site isn’t that far from New Pudsey, so more spaces there would be just as effective

Horsforth Woodside was a popular proposal until recently.

jayah said:
It is quite sad that the success of the railway is judged by its ability to saturate the local road network and build huge expanses of tarmac for the parking of cars across multiple decks. Lack of land then becomes a major constraint for the railway. Better walking routes, cycling routes, cycle storage and integrated public transport are needed.

Yes. Also high density residential developments are a missed opportunity at times.

Killingworth · 6 Jul 2018

jayah said:
It is quite sad that the success of the railway is judged by its ability to saturate the local road network and build huge expanses of tarmac for the parking of cars across multiple decks. Lack of land then becomes a major constraint for the railway. Better walking routes, cycling routes, cycle storage and integrated public transport are needed.

Walking routes are fine in good weather and if you live near your station, as I do, but a lot of people don't live near enough. In winter the route I take is through woods with untarred and unlit hilly paths. Cycling suffers similar drawbacks for all but the most keen. Nevertheless both should be encouraged.

Bus interchanges work best with high frequency routes for both bus and train. Waits of 10-15 minutes or more between are as long as a car owner would accept, if that long.

However, too many car parks are laid out on acres of flat land when multi-storey should have been the first option.Multi-storey to include 2 storeys unobtrusively below ground level. Provision for later above ground level spaces must have been in the planners brief at Kirkstall Forge, surely. This being Britain possibly not. See pictures of Kirkstall Forge with my post 3.

thejuggler · 6 Jul 2018

Assessing car parking needed for office is easy. So many spaces per sq m of development.

For railway stations it is much more difficult as you can only go on estimates of expected use using data from existing stations and planning for this station began about 10 years before the build started. It was confirmed in 2009.

In almost 10 years since it was confirmed and even in the 18 months or so since it opened Leeds has seen massive changes with significant new city centre office developments. This will only increase once HMRC relocate another 3-4000 staff to new offices. Paying £3.90 peak day return is far more sensible than using the car to get into Leeds and paying £6+ to park for the day.

Leeds Council have also closed a lot of 'bomb site' £3 a day car parks over the last few years and this has lead to more rail use. Other stations close to Leeds such as Headingley and Burley Park have almost no car parking, so Kirkstall will be popular.

Grumpy · 6 Jul 2018

bluenoxid said:
Apart from the new builds, that site is quite far from established settlements. I would argue that the site isn’t that far from New Pudsey, so more spaces there would be just as effective

.

The cross Bradford link should have been built when the land was vacant and all the heavy rail trains to Bradford from Leeds run via Shipley, with the park and ride station at Calverley/Rodley as suggested by Cakestall. The New Pudsey route should have been passed over to the local authorities to develop a tramway which they could have extended at either end at their leisure.

Perhaps it's time for my tablets

bluenoxid · 6 Jul 2018

Killingworth said:
Walking routes are fine in good weather and if you live near your station, as I do, but a lot of people don't live near enough. In winter the route I take is through woods with untarred and unlit hilly paths. Cycling suffers similar drawbacks for all but the most keen. Nevertheless both should be encouraged.

Bus interchanges work best with high frequency routes for both bus and train. Waits of 10-15 minutes or more between are as long as a car owner would accept, if that long.

However, too many car parks are laid out on acres of flat land when multi-storey should have been the first option.Multi-storey to include 2 storeys unobtrusively below ground level. Provision for later above ground level spaces must have been in the planners brief at Kirkstall Forge, surely. This being Britain possibly not. See pictures of Kirkstall Forge with my post 3.

Big issue on this site is the land is in a Valley bottom next to a river that will flood.

Grumpy said:
The cross Bradford link should have been built when the land was vacant and all the heavy rail trains to Bradford from Leeds run via Shipley, with the park and ride station at Calverley/Rodley as suggested by Cakestall. The New Pudsey route should have been passed over to the local authorities to develop a tramway which they could have extended at either end at their leisure.

Perhaps it's time for my tablets

Hahahaha! Would be a busy line through Kirkstall Forge but not closed minded to the idea.

xotGD · 6 Jul 2018

Cakestall said:
Access to the canal is very easy just leave the Shipley Platform through the gap in the fence and follow the path into the trees. Turn left and its 300 yards or so and heads towards Leeds, turn Right and you run parallel with the canal till you reach Pollard Lane and the Abbey Inn.
Being local I was interested in the possibility of buying one of the residential properties, but have been put off by the fact that the area will either be swamped by commuters cars and probably the eyesore of a multi story car park or will require draconian parking restrictions to preserve a pleasant environment.. At Horsforth suburban streets up to three quarters of a mile from the station are clogged up with commuter parking.
What is required is a mega park and ride on the Ring Road at Rodley. Call it Horsforth Vale or something. A Station there would dwarf Appleby Bridge and Kirkstall usages. However i suspect this is a a problem that will exist until we are all running round in driver less pods owned on a pooled basis in a few decades.

Thanks for the info - I need to 'yellow pen' the towpath from Kirkstall Bridge to Saltaire so this seems to be the bet way to get to the start point of the walk.

cnicht · 6 Jul 2018

The "Harrogate Line Rail User Group" has been promoting Kirkstall Forge Station as an alternative to Horsforth, it has been instrumental in having the service increased from hourly to half hourly. We are still trying to promote a park and ride station at Horsforth Woodside which is next to the ring road where the Harrogate line crosses it. At the moment there are no plans to increase the car parking at Kirkstall Forge. WYCA has a policy of not charging at its stations (except for large stations like Leeds). Northern as part of their franchise agreements have to starting charging at stations that are not in West or South Yorkshire, consequently Pannal now has a car parking charge of £3 a day (including Sundays) so a couple of years ago Pannal car park used to be full with commuters, now its just over half full. This is why the streets around Weeton and Horsforth are full of cars from North Yorkshire ( and they get the cheaper West Yorkshire fares).

Killingworth · 6 Jul 2018

bluenoxid said:
Big issue on this site is the land is in a Valley bottom next to a river that will flood.

I've parked in the massive underground car park between Cologne Cathedral and the main railway station. I'd suspect it goes down below the level of the River Rhine, but it seems quite dry. It doesn't have to be a problem - if the cash and will is there.

bluenoxid · 7 Jul 2018

It’s the ongoing maintenance that worries me. We can deliver this kind of engineering but the River Aire is temperamental and reminds us of that regularly.

thejuggler · 7 Jul 2018

Report today saying 12 vehicles were broken into at Apperley Bridge overnight. All look to be smash and grab on whatever vehicle the scroats were stood next to.

The number since it opened must be close to 50 by now, I have witnessed a couple and I only use the station 1 or 2 times a month.

This problem may also be putting pressure on Kirkstall Forge.

HowardGWR · 7 Jul 2018

Yes, what occurred to me was 'why are they parking overnight?' I thought it was for people catching trains but no wonder it gets full if folk can go on holiday by train and just leave the car there (if so of course). Anyone have an idea whether there are restrictions?

thejuggler · 7 Jul 2018

The idea is to encourage useage and if you work shifts it is far cheaper than paying overnight parking rates.

HowardGWR · 7 Jul 2018

thejuggler said:
The idea is to encourage useage and if you work shifts it is far cheaper than paying overnight parking rates.

Ah, but the quotes I saw in the local paper seemed to be coing from moneyed folk rather than workers. Interesting though.

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