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Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

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bramling

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Actually if GTR were owners of the infrastructure they would be blaming the power supply company.

There’s an interesting article on the Hitchin Comet site, which includes a gem about the queen preferring the old trains! Must admit she didn’t look too happy in the picture we saw when she was seen just alighting the 387 at Kings Lynn.

Meanwhile, shaping up to be another bad ThameSink/ day - every single northbound service from the core to GN so far is late or cancelled, in some cases over 30 late. It’s a joke that anyone thought this could ever work well.
 
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jellybaby

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Why make it an industry? Just give season ticket holder (i.e. 1 week or over) a 75% refund (pro rata for monthly/annuals etc.) unquestioned for all weeks from 21st May until the timetable is running at 95%. Claiming for every ticket is a PITA and is designed to put people off. And the cost of processing must be enormous.

What counts as a season ticket holder? In your scheme would I get a refund as an annual travelcard holder?

It seems something is coming though:

GTR announces additional compensation for Thameslink and Great Northern passengers

Govia Thameslink Railway has announced a special compensation scheme in agreement with the Department for Transport for Thameslink and Great Northern passengers most severely affected by disruption following May’s timetable change.

Compensation will be paid to qualifying season ticket holders according to the level of disruption on Thameslink and Great Northern services.

Refunds will be the equivalent to the cost of one week or four weeks’ rail travel depending on the disruption to services for passengers and subject to qualifying criteria.

The scheme will be funded by the rail industry, including GTR, in recognition of the disruption caused by the failure of the new May timetable.

GTR is working with the DfT to make available full details of the scheme within a week. This will include a full list of qualifying stations, eligibility details and claims advice.

GTR Chief Operating Officer Nick Brown said:

“I am deeply sorry for the disruption which the rail industry is working very hard to fix. This compensation is offered in addition to our usual Delay Repay compensation for journey delays of 15 minutes or more and enhanced compensation for season tickets holders. We will shortly provide full details of the industry compensation scheme including eligibility criteria and claims advice.”
https://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/govia...meslink-and-great-northern-passengers-2571011
 

jellybaby

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If you are talking about 'standard class only' routes where stock with first class accommodation turns up, that's indicated in the timetable.

If you can find a printed timetable with them in. Pocket timetable 15, only available on paper, which has the WGC-MOG trains doesn't have WGC-KGX semi-fast services which are operated with 700s.

700s may or may not indicate this on their electronic displays
They don't.
 

Stew998

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Infrastructure failures are basically unavoidable. GTRs continuing incompetence and disinterest in sorting it out isn’t. Massive difference.

If it was the other way round and GTR were in charge of infrastructure, presumably they’d have the same attitude as to the timetable and go “it doesn’t work but we’ll just leave it to fail further for two months before we try to do anything”

They'll always happen though regardless of who’s in charge of infrastructure.

Whilst infrastructure is realistically never going to be 100% reliable there are simply too many signalling and track faults on the BML, it seems to happen somewhere along the line 2 or 3 times a week and has massive knock on effects which, thanks to greater number of through trains on Thameslink can now be enjoyed by those North of the river as well.
 

Failed Unit

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What counts as a season ticket holder? In your scheme would I get a refund as an annual travelcard holder?

It seems something is coming though:

GTR announces additional compensation for Thameslink and Great Northern passengers

Govia Thameslink Railway has announced a special compensation scheme in agreement with the Department for Transport for Thameslink and Great Northern passengers most severely affected by disruption following May’s timetable change.

Compensation will be paid to qualifying season ticket holders according to the level of disruption on Thameslink and Great Northern services.

Refunds will be the equivalent to the cost of one week or four weeks’ rail travel depending on the disruption to services for passengers and subject to qualifying criteria.

The scheme will be funded by the rail industry, including GTR, in recognition of the disruption caused by the failure of the new May timetable.

GTR is working with the DfT to make available full details of the scheme within a week. This will include a full list of qualifying stations, eligibility details and claims advice.

GTR Chief Operating Officer Nick Brown said:

“I am deeply sorry for the disruption which the rail industry is working very hard to fix. This compensation is offered in addition to our usual Delay Repay compensation for journey delays of 15 minutes or more and enhanced compensation for season tickets holders. We will shortly provide full details of the industry compensation scheme including eligibility criteria and claims advice.”
https://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/govia...meslink-and-great-northern-passengers-2571011

Notice they yet again avoid any language to show they are a major part of this shambles. “rail industry”. They should be footing the entire bill. Why should a Scotrail passenger be paying for GTR incompetence.

My other concerns is it isn’t fixed. Week 7 is actually worse than week 1. I hope this gets extended until it is fixed. Which could still be a long way off judging by performance in the peak on GN this week.
 

jon0844

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I travelled on a train today with two drivers and they've got their new diagrams and believe it will work (touch wood). Definite concentration of services in the peak, but hopefully doing away with a bank of spare drivers being paired up with trains on an adhoc basis day after day (I know not everything was like that, but enough to cause problems at King's Cross and Finsbury Park every day as we've seen only too well).

In addition, TfL is now allowing drivers to travel on the tube to FPK from KGX free of charge, giving drivers another way to get to FPK to pick up services when trains from the cross are delayed or cancelled.
 

87015

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I travelled on a train today with two drivers and they've got their new diagrams and believe it will work (touch wood). Definite concentration of services in the peak, but hopefully doing away with a bank of spare drivers being paired up with trains on an adhoc basis day after day (I know not everything was like that, but enough to cause problems at King's Cross and Finsbury Park every day as we've seen only too well).

In addition, TfL is now allowing drivers to travel on the tube to FPK from KGX free of charge, giving drivers another way to get to FPK to pick up services when trains from the cross are delayed or cancelled.
That’s interesting, as they haven’t sent it to NR yet - but CLAIM they couldn’t start crew diagramming until a final TT was received for May??

Still another lie won’t matter when you’ve sold your utter excrement to the press will it and the comics now including Modern Railway lap it up for free breakfasts...
 

infobleep

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I travelled on a train today with two drivers and they've got their new diagrams and believe it will work (touch wood). Definite concentration of services in the peak, but hopefully doing away with a bank of spare drivers being paired up with trains on an adhoc basis day after day (I know not everything was like that, but enough to cause problems at King's Cross and Finsbury Park every day as we've seen only too well).

In addition, TfL is now allowing drivers to travel on the tube to FPK from KGX free of charge, giving drivers another way to get to FPK to pick up services when trains from the cross are delayed or cancelled.
That is rather nice of TfL to do that. How much would it have cost GTR if they insisted on them paying?
 

ComUtoR

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That’s interesting, as they haven’t sent it to NR yet - but CLAIM they couldn’t start crew diagramming until a final TT was received for May??

Still another lie won’t matter when you’ve sold your utter excrement to the press will it and the comics now including Modern Railway lap it up for free breakfasts...

Doesn't this all depend on how the timetable is being generated ? You wouldn't be able to resource crew without knowing what trains are being scheduled. You can then generate crew diagrams based on what is being given to the TOC by NR. The problem, of course, was that GTR couldn't resource the Drivers to cover the diagrams needed. Hence numerous cancellations due to lack of Driver.

However; with this emergency timetable. Is the TOC dictating what they can actually resource ? If NR was dictating the timetable once again then it would be utterly pointless. It would be the same situation all over again. GTR and NR need to be working together on this. GTR need to be able to submit what resources and diagrams they can physically manage and then submit this to NR and then anything that GTR can't cover then just gets omitted. GTR already know what services are booked to run. They just need to decide how much of the timetable they can actually run.

To me it seems very logical and less tinfoil hatty.
 

jon0844

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That’s interesting, as they haven’t sent it to NR yet - but CLAIM they couldn’t start crew diagramming until a final TT was received for May??

Still another lie won’t matter when you’ve sold your utter excrement to the press will it and the comics now including Modern Railway lap it up for free breakfasts...

Maybe they've received provisional diagrams then, awaiting approval, but the timetables are going out to staff later today and the public on the 9th (maybe sooner) so surely they have been approved?
 

87015

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Maybe they've received provisional diagrams then, awaiting approval, but the timetables are going out to staff later today and the public on the 9th (maybe sooner) so surely they have been approved?
But they could have had driver diagrams done in parallel with what they submitted to NR to start with. Its how nearly everyone else works.
 

87015

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Doesn't this all depend on how the timetable is being generated ? You wouldn't be able to resource crew without knowing what trains are being scheduled. You can then generate crew diagrams based on what is being given to the TOC by NR. The problem, of course, was that GTR couldn't resource the Drivers to cover the diagrams needed. Hence numerous cancellations due to lack of Driver.

However; with this emergency timetable. Is the TOC dictating what they can actually resource ? If NR was dictating the timetable once again then it would be utterly pointless. It would be the same situation all over again. GTR and NR need to be working together on this. GTR need to be able to submit what resources and diagrams they can physically manage and then submit this to NR and then anything that GTR can't cover then just gets omitted. GTR already know what services are booked to run. They just need to decide how much of the timetable they can actually run.

To me it seems very logical and less tinfoil hatty.
NR doesn't dictate timetables. TOCs bid first... Your paragraph doesn't change that the root cause is GTR signing up to operate something they had no intention/ability of resourcing. Remember the end "timetable" was less than they had bid on D-40.
 

Surreytraveller

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In addition, TfL is now allowing drivers to travel on the tube to FPK from KGX free of charge, giving drivers another way to get to FPK to pick up services when trains from the cross are delayed or cancelled.
That's nothing new. There is interavailability of National Rail and London Underground tickets between Finsbury Park and King's Cross anyway Always has been.
 

jon0844

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That's nothing new. There is interavailability of National Rail and London Underground tickets between Finsbury Park and King's Cross anyway Always has been.

Not for staff though. Drivers have had to pay and many have refused. They are expected to use trains, or pay (albeit at a discounted rate).
 

Surreytraveller

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Not for staff though. Drivers have had to pay and many have refused. They are expected to use trains, or pay (albeit at a discounted rate).
Really? I would have thought that a National Rail ticket was a National Rail ticket, and London Underground wouldn't care about any specifics of that ticket?
 

43074

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That’s interesting, as they haven’t sent it to NR yet - but CLAIM they couldn’t start crew diagramming until a final TT was received for May??

Still another lie won’t matter when you’ve sold your utter excrement to the press will it and the comics now including Modern Railway lap it up for free breakfasts...

The Network Rail thing was, and has always been, a feeble excuse; unless what was bid to NR after D40 (i.e. the May timetable with phasing) was utter tripe then you wouldn't expect things to change *that* much - platform changes and adjustments to allowances perhaps but you wouldn't expect anything from NR to alter the resource requirement to the extent made out by GTR.

The new timetable is effectively the May timetable with permanent cancellations, the diagrams are the key thing which have changed and which should result in a more predicable service for passengers - although whether that will actually be the case will only be known on the 15th July.
 

jon0844

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Really? I would have thought that a National Rail ticket was a National Rail ticket, and London Underground wouldn't care about any specifics of that ticket?

Drivers don't have tickets though. They'll have a staff ID that doesn't allow tube travel, a Privilege card and the ability to get a PTAC card with discounted Oyster.

Drivers therefore have to pay, albeit less.

I am sure gateline staff often pass people free of charge but drivers presumably don't want the hassle. So they use trains only, feeling they shouldn't have to pay to get to their relief point.
 

Failed Unit

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I travelled on a train today with two drivers and they've got their new diagrams and believe it will work (touch wood). Definite concentration of services in the peak, but hopefully doing away with a bank of spare drivers being paired up with trains on an adhoc basis day after day (I know not everything was like that, but enough to cause problems at King's Cross and Finsbury Park every day as we've seen only too well).

In addition, TfL is now allowing drivers to travel on the tube to FPK from KGX free of charge, giving drivers another way to get to FPK to pick up services when trains from the cross are delayed or cancelled.

That is what I don’t get. How? Where are these drivers coming from?

At the moment they at typical morning service from WGC - King cross is half hourly. X02 and x32. The 0722 (0627 ex Cambridge) is planned and nearly always cancelled. Other services you are more surprised when the run such as the 0602 WGC - London.

They fail miserably now - what will change in 2 weeks?

If they are concentrating on the peak why is it so difficult.

Look at the weekends. Saturday and Sunday less scheduled trains than the previous timetable. They still manage to cancel most Kings Cross - Cambridge services. (Rather than run them with 365s so all staff know the traction and route)

This will make an hourly service (50% reduction) look like a successful thing. It isn’t.

But i just can’t see why if the can do it on Wb-15th why this week we have seen the service deteriorate yet again.
 

jon0844

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As suggested above, the new timetable seems like pretty much the full peak service with some hourly services off peak that are intended to allow drivers to get their route knowledge. As time goes on cancelled services will be reinstated on a permanent basis right up until the full May timetable is running.

Every train in the new timetable has a proper driver roster, not spare drivers sitting around wasting their time half the day while others are in the wrong place because of last second cancellations and delays.

It does sound logical and sensible. Goodness knows if it will work, but it has to.

There will be more 365 workings too where drivers are yet to be 700 trained.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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Drivers don't have tickets though. They'll have a staff ID that doesn't allow tube travel, a Privilege card and the ability to get a PTAC card with discounted Oyster.

Drivers therefore have to pay, albeit less.

I am sure gateline staff often pass people free of charge but drivers presumably don't want the hassle. So they use trains only, feeling they shouldn't have to pay to get to their relief point.
I always thought that National Rail staff in the former Network SouthEast area were entitled to free Oyster staff cards in the same way as London Buses and Underground staff are
 

Failed Unit

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As suggested above, the new timetable seems like pretty much the full peak service with some hourly services off peak that are intended to allow drivers to get their route knowledge. As time goes on cancelled services will be reinstated on a permanent basis right up until the full May timetable is running.

Every train in the new timetable has a proper driver roster, not spare drivers sitting around wasting their time half the day while others are in the wrong place because of last second cancellations and delays.

It does sound logical and sensible. Goodness knows if it will work, but it has to.

There will be more 365 workings too where drivers are yet to be 700 trained.

That is sensible. But as GTR are involved. I will believe it when I see it.

Really back to my statement they can’t run the peak now. If it takes 100 drivers today it will take 100 drivers on July 16th. If they haven’t got 100 drivers to run the peak they will fail. If they have why can’t they run the drastically reduced peak we have today?
 

jon0844

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That is what I don’t get. How? Where are these drivers coming from?

I am not sure there's actually a shortage of drivers, rather issues with their training with some not able to sign 700s and others not having the route knowledge.

700 drivers need to go to WGC to take out the morning trains as no WGC drivers sign 700s yet (they'll do this with the 717s and also learn the routes through the core too), but recently many don't arrive in time. Once the later trains return and go into the sidings to come out, they are pretty much a given as running, but in the morning there can be 700s in the yard that can't come out.. and we all know how the current system likes to show them as 'on time' before they disappear (the only fix is to have them manually marked as cancelled, as they have no inbound working to allow the software to work out they can't run).

Many Moorgate inner services rely on having a relief at the other end. Trains cannot be left at Moorgate, so Finsbury Park is where they switch. But if a driver can't get to FPK because they're stuck at King's Cross then that's cancelled or delayed heavily, maybe having to skip stops or even go to Hornsey (or WGC sidings) to get out of the way.

As many drivers are based at WGC but originally from Hitchin and surrounds, they have to be able to get home.. and then of course they have to work within their hours.

At times there are lots of drivers spare doing very little during the chaos because they're not allocated to a train or have been asked at short notice to drive something else, but they then are useless later on as they've reached their hours and so the fun starts again. They can take a train to somewhere, but not back, so there needs to be a relief. And where are they? Who knows... Train gets cancelled even with a driver ready to go.

King's Cross have similar problems, with the added issue of what happens with many hundreds of people on the concourse that board a train (a 12 car 700 holding 1700 people) that gets cancelled.

All of this is why each driver needs a proper diagram and that is what went wrong, and should now be fixed. I am not sure the rosters changed as I know that was going to be fought hard, but at the end of the day, they should have enough drivers. And where the training has fallen short, using some 365s may bridge the gaps. Off peak, you can allow for less drivers being available because you're running fewer trains and have some doing the route knowledge to allow more trains to be run.

That's the theory. Let's see the reality.
 

jon0844

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I always thought that National Rail staff in the former Network SouthEast area were entitled to free Oyster staff cards in the same way as London Buses and Underground staff are

No. They get a discounted Oyster for National Rail only (maybe DLR too?) and GTR staff get an additional discount for the tube. No discount at all for buses.
 

Bromley boy

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I always thought that National Rail staff in the former Network SouthEast area were entitled to free Oyster staff cards in the same way as London Buses and Underground staff are

I believe “protected” (ex BR staff) are, but not those who joined post 1996.
 

philjo

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2142 kings lynn service full and standing about 15 mins before departure. I gather the 2112 was cancelled and lots of passengers coming home from Wimbledon - I'm returning from the cricket T20 at Lords. 21:54 2x365 Pullman to the rescue!
 

petersi

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t (they'll do this with the 717s and also learn the routes through the core too),

Surely The introduction of class 717 is on indefinite hold
1) New class of trains take time to bed in so cause more disruption. (remember due things like trip locks these units software will be different)
2) Time taken for drive training

GTR management should really make a statement that these will not be introduced until the thameslink timetable is stable.
Even this means the units are not intruduced until 2020 when the thameslink changes are finished.

For now most import is a stable service
 

WeGoAgain

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...700 drivers need to go to WGC to take out the morning trains as no WGC drivers sign 700s yet.
Some WGC Drivers do sign 700's, I'm not sure how many.


I have the feeling; sometimes Trains are cancelled as it's easier to cancel them than work out where, further into the day, said train will not have a driver.

Opposite to that, some trains have run as a Driver sees no reason for a train not to run.
 
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