"Pffft! We'd go bust if we did that!" Really?

175mph · 5 Jul 2018

I got the chance to have a chat with the manager of a local bus company called Hornsbys, (www.hornsbytravel.co.uk) and amongst things I asked him why the ticket machines can't be configured so that if someone has a concessionary pass, all they have to do is place the card on the reader, wait for it to beep, then sit down, and not have to take a zero fare ticket, as it could speed up boarding and reduce litter and operators such as EYMS have done this for quite a few years now without any issues. His response was as I put in the title, and wouldn't tell me the reasons why, but could such an idea really cause a small operator to go bust in the end?

What could the really reason be for it if not that? Surely if an inspector gets on, all he or she has to do is look at the pass? I've been on EYMS services before where inspections have took place and anyone with a concessionary pass just needs to show it and that's that.

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Kent Dreamer · 5 Jul 2018

Stagecoach also don’t issue tickets when people use these passes. And they wouldn’t do that if it meant they lost money.

overthewater · 5 Jul 2018

The only company to do that in Scotland is Lothian buses, partly because there is only one fare. So you can't dispute it.

175mph · 5 Jul 2018

Kent Dreamer said:
Stagecoach also don’t issue tickets when people use these passes. And they wouldn’t do that if it meant they lost money.

They still do here in North Lincolnshire, the bus I'm on right now is littered with them!

Olympian · 5 Jul 2018

175mph said:
I got the chance to have a chat with the manager of a local bus company called Hornsbys, (www.hornsbytravel.co.uk) and amongst things I asked him why the ticket machines can't be configured so that if someone has a concessionary pass, all they have to do is place the card on the reader, wait for it to beep, then sit down, and not have to take a zero fare ticket, as it could speed up boarding and reduce litter and operators such as EYMS have done this for quite a few years now without any issues. His response was as I put in the title, and wouldn't tell me the reasons why, but could such an idea really cause a small operator to go bust in the end?

What could the really reason be for it if not that? Surely if an inspector gets on, all he or she has to do is look at the pass? I've been on EYMS services before where inspections have took place and anyone with a concessionary pass just needs to show it and that's that.

It may well depend on the basis by which the operator is reimbursed for concession passes. If they need to declare the actual number of journeys made to their local authorities, rather than payments being made based on surveys or other data, then issuing a zero fare ticket is a way of ensuring that the pass has correctly registered on the ticket machine and hasn't come up as expired, hotlisted or been mis-read in any way. Also some ticket machines are quicker to read smartcards than others so passenger behaviour needs to account for that and if it's a case of keeping card on reader until a ticket is issued then that potentially overcomes it. At least one operator in South Wales switched off issuing tickets for concessionary passes a few years back but found that the number of recorded journeys dramatically reduced, and presumably their reinbursements also would, so hasilty switched them back on again.

krus_aragon · 5 Jul 2018

175mph said:
I got the chance to have a chat with the manager of a local bus company called Hornsbys, (www.hornsbytravel.co.uk) and amongst things I asked him why the ticket machines can't be configured so that if someone has a concessionary pass, all they have to do is place the card on the reader, wait for it to beep, then sit down, and not have to take a zero fare ticket, as it could speed up boarding and reduce litter and operators such as EYMS have done this for quite a few years now without any issues. His response was as I put in the title, and wouldn't tell me the reasons why, but could such an idea really cause a small operator to go bust in the end?

What could the really reason be for it if not that? Surely if an inspector gets on, all he or she has to do is look at the pass? I've been on EYMS services before where inspections have took place and anyone with a concessionary pass just needs to show it and that's that.

When the (RFID-based) Wales Concessionary Pass Scheme was first introduced, all users were issued with tickets. A few years later, they stopped printing them.

Could the issue be similar to that of London-based train operators, needing an RFID reader to check tickets?

krus_aragon · 5 Jul 2018

Olympian said:
At least one operator in South Wales switched off issuing tickets for concessionary passes a few years back but found that the number of recorded journeys dramatically reduced, and presumably their reinbursements also would, so hasilty switched them back on again.

Ah. It seems that what I just posted applies to some, but not all operators in Wales. Arriva Wales certainly don't issue them, and I'm pretty sure Cardiff Bus don't either.

Bus pass holders in this neck of the woods seem to be well versed in placing the card on the reader and waiting for the nod from the driver, disregarding the Red/Yellow/Green LED next to the card reader.

Olympian · 5 Jul 2018

krus_aragon said:
Ah. It seems that what I just posted applies to some, but not all operators in Wales. Arriva Wales certainly don't issue them, and I'm pretty sure Cardiff Bus don't either.

Bus pass holders in this neck of the woods seem to be well versed in placing the card on the reader and waiting for the nod from the driver, disregarding the Red/Yellow/Green LED next to the card reader.

There's certainly variance across Wales as the issuing of tickets isn't mandated, also as operators move on to second-generation ITSO ticket machines they may change what they do at that time due to improvements in card reading speeds, mis-read handling etc. If they have Ticketer ETMs then it's hard to miss the sound made when a card isn't valid!

CD · 5 Jul 2018

Or it could be issuing more zero fare tickets than passengers is a way of making more profit?

Olympian · 5 Jul 2018

CD said:
Or it could be issuing more zero fare tickets than passengers is a way of making more profit?

In theory this is only possible if you're issuing manual zero fare tickets without smartcards present, something that any good local authority should be policing anyway and asking questions if there's an unusually high quantity of them.

PeterC · 5 Jul 2018

The only reasons that I can think of are that he believes:
1.Passengers always have had paper tickets so they must always have them
2. Without paper tickets passengers won't bother to touch in and drivers won't enforce it.
(2) has some minor justification but when our local service stopped issuing zero fare tickets it didn't happen.

Statto · 5 Jul 2018

175mph said:
They still do here in North Lincolnshire, the bus I'm on right now is littered with them!

Stagecoach issue them in Lancashire, had a load of zero fare tickets.

brompton rail · 5 Jul 2018

Statto said:
Stagecoach issue them in Lancashire, had a load of zero fare tickets.

First in South Yorkshire haven’t issued Concessioniary tickets for some time now. They did introduce tickets a few years ago, and then ceased. As far as I know reimbursements for Concessionary fares are calculated by using on bus surveys conducted by SYPTE, though I haven’t seen anyone surveying recently.

Tetchytyke · 5 Jul 2018

I'm assuming it's based on the reimbursement method or something . Up here all the operators issue tickets. But Stagecoach Cumbria don't, even on routes out of Northumberland.

Stan Drews · 5 Jul 2018

Arctic Troll said:
I'm assuming it's based on the reimbursement method or something.

That is correct. Some authorities reimburse operators based on a percentage of the adult single fare for the journey undertaken with an ENCTS card. Therefore a ‘zero value’ ticket is normally produced to the correct alighting fare stage.
Other authorities calculate a flat rate payment to the operator for each ENCTS use, regardless of the length of the journey. In this scenario a ticket isn’t required, just the journey being suitably recorded. North Yorkshire CC use this latter system which leads to the very low payments operators get for longer length journeys.

Statto · 5 Jul 2018

brompton rail said:
First in South Yorkshire haven’t issued Concessioniary tickets for some time now. They did introduce tickets a few years ago, and then ceased. As far as I know reimbursements for Concessionary fares are calculated by using on bus surveys conducted by SYPTE, though I haven’t seen anyone surveying recently.

I had problems using my Merseytravel issued ENCTS pass on First South Yorkshire last year, the ticket machine refused to accept my pass, showed my pass to the driver only for the driver to say they've been told to refuse out of area ENCTS passes, & i should get an SYPTE issued one instead.

Busaholic · 5 Jul 2018

Statto said:
I had problems using my Merseytravel issued ENCTS pass on First South Yorkshire last year, the ticket machine refused to accept my pass, showed my pass to the driver only for the driver to say they've been told to refuse out of area ENCTS passes, & i should get an SYPTE issued one instead.

Told by whom not to accept out of area ENCTS passes? They are legally obliged to accept them and, in any case, you can't pick and choose which area you go to get one issued, it's dependent on where you live. I'd love to have a London Freedom Pass, and get free tube, train and tram travel when I'm in the capital, but as I live in Cornwall it's not possible!

Bletchleyite · 6 Jul 2018

Arctic Troll said:
I'm assuming it's based on the reimbursement method or something . Up here all the operators issue tickets. But Stagecoach Cumbria don't, even on routes out of Northumberland.

It could be to allow passengers to conduct enforcement by reporting companies who issue tickets for further than they travel and so overclaim.

Statto · 6 Jul 2018

Busaholic said:
Told by whom not to accept out of area ENCTS passes? They are legally obliged to accept them and, in any case, you can't pick and choose which area you go to get one issued, it's dependent on where you live. I'd love to have a London Freedom Pass, and get free tube, train and tram travel when I'm in the capital, but as I live in Cornwall it's not possible!

Told by supervisors at his depot, i know it's a load of bull & they have to accept them, i've had no problems in other operators drivers accepting them when they won't work the ticket machines, i complained to First South Yorkshire at the time, but received no correspondence back.

Silver Cobra · 6 Jul 2018

Stagecoach East don't issue zero-fare tickets to passengers using concessionary passes, but Stagecoach Midlands do. So for example, local services in Northampton and the X4/X7 will issue them, but the 41 service originating from Bedford won't.

"Pffft! We'd go bust if we did that!" Really?

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