Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

Agent_Squash · 5 Jul 2018

petersi said:
Surely The introduction of class 717 is on indefinite hold
1) New class of trains take time to bed in so cause more disruption. (remember due things like trip locks these units software will be different)
2) Time taken for drive training

GTR management should really make a statement that these will not be introduced until the thameslink timetable is stable.
Even this means the units are not intruduced until 2020 when the thameslink changes are finished.

For now most import is a stable service

You think the 313s are helping out with a stable service?

RailUK Forums

Surreytraveller · 5 Jul 2018

WeGoAgain said:
I have the feeling; sometimes Trains are cancelled as it's easier to cancel them than work out where, further into the day, said train will not have a driver.

But surely you would cancel a train at the point you have got a driver, so you can use that driver to stick the train in a siding rather than wait until you haven't got a driver and just leave the train sitting in a platform getting in the way of all the other trains?

WeGoAgain · 5 Jul 2018

Surreytraveller said:
But surely you would cancel a train at the point you have got a driver, so you can use that driver to stick the train in a siding rather than wait until you haven't got a driver and just leave the train sitting in a platform getting in the way of all the other trains?

Erm, yes, that's what I was inferring. Driver may be able to work X number of their diagrammed trips, but at some point there is no relief. So Train gets cancelled there are then even though part of the diagram can be worked.

petersi · 5 Jul 2018

Agent_Squash said:
You think the 313s are helping out with a stable service?

reading threads in the rolling stock forum.
First months of a new class seam to be unreliable even compare to a 313

Failed Unit · 5 Jul 2018

petersi said:
reading threads in the rolling stock forum.
First months of a new class seam to be unreliable even compare to a 313

The 700s seem to have more failures then the 313s at the moment. But the 313s typically struggle when it gets cold. You hope the 717s will be better.

I think they need more trains anyway to operate the full service. I think we are 2tph short on the city branch compared to the proposed timetable.

jon0844 · 5 Jul 2018

petersi said:
reading threads in the rolling stock forum.
First months of a new class seam to be unreliable even compare to a 313

You'd hope the 717s won't have many problems as it's surely only the cab design that has changed? The issue is more likely going to be down to training the drivers.

jon0844 · 5 Jul 2018

WeGoAgain said:
Erm, yes, that's what I was inferring. Driver may be able to work X number of their diagrammed trips, but at some point there is no relief. So Train gets cancelled there are then even though part of the diagram can be worked.

Exactly what has been happening and why the services are cancelled so late in the day, which causes the most inconvenience and anger.

Hitchincommute · 5 Jul 2018

Failed Unit said:
That is what I don’t get. How? Where are these drivers coming from?

At the moment they at typical morning service from WGC - King cross is half hourly. X02 and x32. The 0722 (0627 ex Cambridge) is planned and nearly always cancelled. Other services you are more surprised when the run such as the 0602 WGC - London.

They fail miserably now - what will change in 2 weeks?

If they are concentrating on the peak why is it so difficult.

Look at the weekends. Saturday and Sunday less scheduled trains than the previous timetable. They still manage to cancel most Kings Cross - Cambridge services. (Rather than run them with 365s so all staff know the traction and route)

This will make an hourly service (50% reduction) look like a successful thing. It isn’t.

But i just can’t see why if the can do it on Wb-15th why this week we have seen the service deteriorate yet again.

At the public meeting in Hitchin last night the GTR Passenger Services Director said they required 890 drivers for the May 20th timetable and they had 890. They require 790 for the July 15th timetable so numbers shouldn’t be an issue.

He used the phrase “broken” service a lot and said the timetable received back from Network Rail was significantly changed from expectation to cause the rostering system to give the problems there are today. It usually takes 12 weeks to prepare a roster with a known timetable and they have processed the July 15th version in 11 weeks. Drivers should have received details today and the public tomorrow (Fri). The 15th July service will have 85% of the May 20th one.

For what it’s worth he seemed genuine and not just a planted PR expert and finished with the story about the Queen requiring them to keep a 365. Predictable responses to that included “Who’s paying for that!”

The Network Rail guy admitted that only 95% of the timetable could work without the fifth platform at Stevenage when presented with consultation quotes from 2016 of “The timetable cannot work without the fifth platform at Stevenage”

It appears that the full timetable is expected in December 2019 just ahead of further disruption with Kings Cross remodelling.

bramling · 5 Jul 2018

jon0844 said:
I am not sure there's actually a shortage of drivers, rather issues with their training with some not able to sign 700s and others not having the route knowledge.

700 drivers need to go to WGC to take out the morning trains as no WGC drivers sign 700s yet (they'll do this with the 717s and also learn the routes through the core too), but recently many don't arrive in time. Once the later trains return and go into the sidings to come out, they are pretty much a given as running, but in the morning there can be 700s in the yard that can't come out.. and we all know how the current system likes to show them as 'on time' before they disappear (the only fix is to have them manually marked as cancelled, as they have no inbound working to allow the software to work out they can't run).

Many Moorgate inner services rely on having a relief at the other end. Trains cannot be left at Moorgate, so Finsbury Park is where they switch. But if a driver can't get to FPK because they're stuck at King's Cross then that's cancelled or delayed heavily, maybe having to skip stops or even go to Hornsey (or WGC sidings) to get out of the way.

As many drivers are based at WGC but originally from Hitchin and surrounds, they have to be able to get home.. and then of course they have to work within their hours.

At times there are lots of drivers spare doing very little during the chaos because they're not allocated to a train or have been asked at short notice to drive something else, but they then are useless later on as they've reached their hours and so the fun starts again. They can take a train to somewhere, but not back, so there needs to be a relief. And where are they? Who knows... Train gets cancelled even with a driver ready to go.

King's Cross have similar problems, with the added issue of what happens with many hundreds of people on the concourse that board a train (a 12 car 700 holding 1700 people) that gets cancelled.

All of this is why each driver needs a proper diagram and that is what went wrong, and should now be fixed. I am not sure the rosters changed as I know that was going to be fought hard, but at the end of the day, they should have enough drivers. And where the training has fallen short, using some 365s may bridge the gaps. Off peak, you can allow for less drivers being available because you're running fewer trains and have some doing the route knowledge to allow more trains to be run.

That's the theory. Let's see the reality.

This is exactly how I see it. The temporary timetable would be based on the FailedPlan2020, but with a proportion of selected services strategically removed. Then completely revised train and crew diagrams based around the revised service, avoiding the issues of what happens to the train when its next service is cancelled, making sure train crew availability matches the position of units, and of course giving the passenger a service they can rely on. Naturally it’s good to see the opportunity has been taken to make more use of the 365s in the revised diagrams, although hopefully this won’t mean we see 8 vice 12 in some services.

Bring in a few more 365 services aligned with half the proposed Peterborough/Horsham service becoming Peterborough/King’s Cross, and then do the same with Cambridge/Brighton down the line, and we have the service I predicted would end up happening.

Naturally we wait to see if GTR can do this without errors, and whether their control and operational setup is capable of running it. Unfortunately it won’t resolve the problem of late running from elsewhere, but having a minimum hourly King’s Cross service from every destination should make that risk bearable especially considering the flip side of the coin is extra capacity and “exciting new destinations”! I guess we wait to see how things pan out...

MML · 5 Jul 2018

It's all very well saying they require 890 drivers and have that number. But how many are actually trained to drive the 700s and have the required route knowledge ?
I believe as many as 250+ are sitting at home on full pay awaiting training.
Why haven't they been trained given this RailPlan was known about for years, so they can't blame NR for that.

Today a fully loaded 8 car Bedford service was terminated at Luton to be sent South to Brighton again. Platform at Luton is not the most spacious so struggled with total disembarkation.
I spotted a total of 5 drivers waiting around on the platform looking for trains ! If it's not missing trains it's missing drivers !
Even at this late hour, repeated cancellations mean there is little more than an hourly service between Luton and Bedford.
It's reached meltdown with rail replacement buses even being used between Luton and Harpenden !

jon0844 · 5 Jul 2018

MML said:
It's all very well saying they require 890 drivers and have that number. But how many are actually trained to drive the 700s and have the required route knowledge ?
I believe as many as 250+ are sitting at home on full pay awaiting training.
Why haven't they been trained given this RailPlan was known about for years, so they can't blame NR for that.

Today a fully loaded 8 car Bedford service was terminated at Luton to be sent South to Brighton again. Platform at Luton is not the most spacious so struggled with total disembarkation.
I spotted a total of 5 drivers waiting around on the platform looking for trains ! If it's not missing trains it's missing drivers !
Even at this late hour, repeated cancellations mean there is little more than an hourly service between Luton and Bedford.
It's reached meltdown with rail replacement buses even being used between Luton and Harpenden !

Weren't there overhead line problems near Bedford?

MML · 5 Jul 2018

jon0844 said:
Weren't there overhead line problems near Bedford?

Oh perhaps so. But the driver wasn't very informative. I noticed in the core the platform display had changed to show terminating at Luton. But the onboard PIS maintained the original route destinations to Bedford. At Luton Airport Parkway, the driver made an announcement but after the chime, one could hear nothing but crackle and faint breathing. I'd have still been onboard if I hadn't cottoned onto what was happening.

I must say the driver of the train the previous day provided perfect diction and customer service, explaining every 10 minutes updates resulting from the fatality at Mill Hill Broadway. Good driver - we appreciated his efforts.

Bromley boy · 6 Jul 2018

Mag_seven said:
"Safeguarded Staff" generally - 75% discount on Tube and NR

I thought they had unlimited NR and LU travel, even after retirement?

Mag_seven said:
certainly not valid for "duty" purposes which is what we are discussing here.

No indeed.

choochoochoo · 6 Jul 2018

jon0844 said:
In addition, TfL is now allowing drivers to travel on the tube to FPK from KGX free of charge, giving drivers another way to get to FPK to pick up services when trains from the cross are delayed or cancelled.

I've not seen this agreement in any official driver notices or publications.

Skimble19 · 6 Jul 2018

Having seen the timetable I'm quite surprised at just how many services are still in it, certainly far more than are currently running on any day at the moment. I genuinely hope it works but I won't be overly surprised if there's still issues - hopefully they won't be major ones.

For those wondering: weekends on GN will be Kings Cross only until further notice.

Hitchincommute · 6 Jul 2018

0706 LNER service to York stopping at Huntingdon this morning and Hitchin passengers for these stations to travel via Stevenage

OwenB · 6 Jul 2018

Skimble19 said:
Having seen the timetable I'm quite surprised at just how many services are still in it, certainly far more than are currently running on any day at the moment. I genuinely hope it works but I won't be overly surprised if there's still issues - hopefully they won't be major ones.

For those wondering: weekends on GN will be Kings Cross only until further notice.

I didn't see there was a particular demand for Moorgate anyway, unless some tube lines happen to be closed.

Edit: having reread, you probably meant not to St Pancras. Early morning still..

sefton · 6 Jul 2018

jon0844 said:
Drivers don't have tickets though. They'll have a staff ID that doesn't allow tube travel, a Privilege card and the ability to get a PTAC card with discounted Oyster.

Drivers therefore have to pay, albeit less.

I am sure gateline staff often pass people free of charge but drivers presumably don't want the hassle. So they use trains only, feeling they shouldn't have to pay to get to their relief point.

I don't understand.

Is this a case of drivers needing to be at Finsbury Park for the start of their shift or needing to be there at some point in their shift.

It is the former then surely it is the driver's responsibility to get themselves to work and if the train they would have used has been cancelled then tough, the same as all the other commuters on the train they may have to incur additional expense if they are not to be late for work.

If it is the latter then surely it is their employer's responsibility to get them to where they are needed, and it GTR have been so cheap as to not splash out on Oyster cards but delay trains instead then the press would love the story.

Mag_seven · 6 Jul 2018

Bromley boy said:
I thought they had unlimited NR and LU travel, even after retirement?

Only certain senior graded management staff get an "Oyster Status Pass" - for most its just 75% via a "Privilege Oyster Card".

WeGoAgain · 6 Jul 2018

sefton said:
I don't understand.

Is this a case of drivers needing to be at Finsbury Park for the start of their shift or needing to be there at some point in their shift.

The first Train a Driver needs to work may be from Finsbury Park (FPK). However, they need to sign on before working any Train. This is usually done at Kings Cross (KGX) as there are no sign on facilities at FPK.

So Driver will leave home and head to KGX, sign on, then need to head to FPK to start their work.

They may also need to continue their work from FPK. So they may have worked from a Northern Terminus into KGX. The next part of their diagram requires them to drive a Train from FPK.

Failed Unit · 6 Jul 2018

I guess GTR have bet the house on this.

If it is successful then passengers have stability- with a lower frequency then we have had on the routes for many years. (So success with a very low bar)

If it fails - I am sure they will continue to blame everyone except them selves and take no responsibility for yet another failure. But hopefully that is the end of GTR on the franchise.

You get the impression no-one is going to win out of this.

I am still deeply sceptical. They struggle today to run 2 trains into Kings Cross from WGC between 0700 and 0800. They are planning more? I know people have said they are linking drivers to diagrams. We shall see. Same thing with the weekend. Hopefully they can actually run the 1tph they schedule.

Aictos · 6 Jul 2018

jon0844 said:
No. They get a discounted Oyster for National Rail only (maybe DLR too?) and GTR staff get an additional discount for the tube. No discount at all for buses.

To be precise, the PTAC offers up to 75% discount on National Rail, London Overground, London Underground and DLR but not Buses or River Services.

387star · 6 Jul 2018

I'm on a 444 and my god are these really the same family as the 700s?

Lovely trains with a guard on board and a trolley service to boot

Got me thinking would a trolley work well on Brighton to Cambridge services which will attract a large leisure market

Nice wide trains for the trollies

OwenB · 6 Jul 2018

387star said:
I'm on a 444 and my god are these really the same family as the 700s?

Lovely trains with a guard on board and a trolley service to boot

Got me thinking would a trolley work well on Brighton to Cambridge services which will attract a large leisure market

Nice wide trains for the trollies

Yes, it would be great for a day out. It's almost as if they hadn't had the thought that the commuting market and leisure market were at all different...

387star · 6 Jul 2018

Edit the 444 ride is very rough at times
Anyway back to topic

jon0844 · 6 Jul 2018

choochoochoo said:
I've not seen this agreement in any official driver notices or publications.

I am not sure how official it is. Just that it's being allowed now, and presumably only temporarily. Maybe tbe

387star said:
I'm on a 444 and my god are these really the same family as the 700s?

Lovely trains with a guard on board and a trolley service to boot

Got me thinking would a trolley work well on Brighton to Cambridge services which will attract a large leisure market

Nice wide trains for the trollies

Yes, a trolley on a 700 at times of high leisure usage would likely do a great trade. Such that GTR could probably charge someone to have access.

otomous · 6 Jul 2018

sefton said:
I don't understand.

Is this a case of drivers needing to be at Finsbury Park for the start of their shift or needing to be there at some point in their shift.

It is the former then surely it is the driver's responsibility to get themselves to work and if the train they would have used has been cancelled then tough, the same as all the other commuters on the train they may have to incur additional expense if they are not to be late for work.

If it is the latter then surely it is their employer's responsibility to get them to where they are needed, and it GTR have been so cheap as to not splash out on Oyster cards but delay trains instead then the press would love the story.

It is the driver’s responsibility to get himself to work ie to his signing on point, at his own expense and in his own time.

It is his employer’s responsibility to provide and pay for any travel required in the course of him fulfilling his contracted duties.

Drivers may get free travel to work if it is their own operator or a parent company providing it. Otherwise they may apply for a discounted season ticket with another operator, but this is not a given. Obviously providing his own transport is at the driver’s own expense.

If the train is cancelled in the process of getting to work this is the driver’s issue. If a train is cancelled that is to be used in the course of his duties that is the employer’s issue. Just like all other employees.

Lee_Again · 6 Jul 2018

Not 100% sure if genuine, but in case it is.... the July 15th timetable !!

https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/Peterborough Kings Lynn and Cambridge to London.pdf?token=AWwZH6sgI5jRFKRKgtbLrJUtXnwy9i5PkGquSrhl7PKWOiFZcQLsMklvwCwN7i9YF9Aytvnso_mVwwz019QX913abShxeWkc3dhTAEgFaDd57YxNvMWhoj1EiJZm_Z3MZgBsnchRuU_wNeEPYZGT0yutOg4_NYYVvQ4VfTBHNUgEwOgNbS6VDcFsY_E2QCTjbJ5pjvYsoNK--3oZ7O-FsIym

sefton · 6 Jul 2018

otomous said:
It is the driver’s responsibility to get himself to work ie to his signing on point, at his own expense and in his own time.

It is his employer’s responsibility to provide and pay for any travel required in the course of him fulfilling his contracted duties.

Drivers may get free travel to work if it is their own operator or a parent company providing it. Otherwise they may apply for a discounted season ticket with another operator, but this is not a given. Obviously providing his own transport is at the driver’s own expense.

If the train is cancelled in the process of getting to work this is the driver’s issue. If a train is cancelled that is to be used in the course of his duties that is the employer’s issue. Just like all other employees.

So what is the issue that needed to be resolved?

Was GTR refusing to pay for drivers to travel to Finsbury Park during the course of their work, and as a result massively increasing the disruption to save a couple of pounds?

OwenB · 6 Jul 2018

Lee_Again said:
Not 100% sure if genuine, but in case it is.... the July 15th timetable !!

https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/Peterborough Kings Lynn and Cambridge to London.pdf?token=AWwZH6sgI5jRFKRKgtbLrJUtXnwy9i5PkGquSrhl7PKWOiFZcQLsMklvwCwN7i9YF9Aytvnso_mVwwz019QX913abShxeWkc3dhTAEgFaDd57YxNvMWhoj1EiJZm_Z3MZgBsnchRuU_wNeEPYZGT0yutOg4_NYYVvQ4VfTBHNUgEwOgNbS6VDcFsY_E2QCTjbJ5pjvYsoNK--3oZ7O-FsIym

Any news on the WGC-KGX/MOG timetables?

Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

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