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Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018
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Failed Unit
Established Member
Asked many times in the consultation. Welwyn North in particular considering it is on the 2 track section of the ECML so hammers the scarce capacity.
Knebworth and Welwyn North have significant numbers of commuters in the peaks, but for the rest of the day the stations are pretty dead. Two trains per hour are ample. The problem for these users in the morning is that with cancellations and trains stopping at Stevenage and the like before, the trains are often full and standing. Stop orders on trains from Kings Lynn are pointless as nobody is getting off at either station to make room. When the train stops at WGC, at least a large number of people alight and that gives people a chance.
More and more people from these stations have taken to coming to WGC to travel, making their journey in and out more predictable. I expect they're looking forward to being able to use their local stations again, hopefully.
More and more people from these stations have taken to coming to WGC to travel, making their journey in and out more predictable. I expect they're looking forward to being able to use their local stations again, hopefully.
bramling
Veteran Member
I think it’s largely historical.
In the 1990s they made do with 2tph, which were generally Potters Bar, Hatfield and all stations to Cambridge or Peterborough.
Over time, with increasing demand, some of these trains became fast from/to Welwyn GC, and an additional 2tph service was introduced, which largely out of convenience seems to have gone to and from Letchworth, and took up Hatfield and Potters Bar, plus the likes of New Barnet, Oakleigh Park, et cetera.
And so it was that Knebworth and Welwyn North had 4tph which they probably didn’t need. It didn’t help that at this time there were still 4-car services booked, mainly due to lack of units.
Fast forward to the late 2000s and a “capacity increase study”, and the extra 2tph were judged to be a poor use of resources - taking up valuable capacity in particular at Hitchin. So they were curtailed at Welwyn GC, and an additional 2tph were able to be fitted in, a semi-fast Royston service - the extra stock coming (indirectly) from the cascaded 321s.
The snag was this left Knebworth and Welwyn North with 2tph, which no doubt was politically unacceptable, so they gained calls on some faster services. There was perhaps an element of logic to this in that it’s probably better to have a train calling at Welwyn North from full speed rather than having to crawl across the junction if having stopped at Welwyn GC.
One something becomes established it’s perhaps hard to take it away, although having said that this is exactly what has happened at Hitchin which is rather busier and definitely more deserving of non-stop services from a purely passenger numbers point of view.
As for Ashwell, I suspect this is mainly for timetabling convenience - although again Letchworth would be rather more deserving just based on passenger numbers. The Ashwell fasts possibly aren’t quite such a wonderful thing in the morning as I’d imagine there are few if any seats left by the time they get there?
The new timetables are going up today, and I believe that first class will now be back in operation (except for where no first class is in operation on that service, or the rear of a 700) once the new July 15th timetable starts.
Previously I thought the peak declassification would continue, but it seems like that won't be the case.
Previously I thought the peak declassification would continue, but it seems like that won't be the case.
bramling
Veteran Member
I have to say I’ll be surprised if they manage to run all of what they are committing to, especially when inevitable disruption happens, but we’ll see.
I notice McPartland’s extra stops seem to have quietly disappeared...
If they've got the drivers with proper diagrams and services have drivers in place for the returns (rather than getting to Finsbury Park and hoping someone is there) then I can't see major problems. They ran trains before, and apart from different timings, the new timetable isn't that radical when you take out the trains through the core.
The problem seemed to be so many drivers as spare, not having much to do and control having little idea where drivers were - asking them at short notice to travel PASS to another station to work a train, when there was no train to take them etc.
For many stations, May 20 didn't change a great deal besides perhaps more 700 workings than ever before. Plus 4 Moorgate trains per hour. The latter should be dead easy to operate, even if there might be the odd delay here and there.
The important thing is that the dead time in the day is used effectively to get driver training up to speed. It won't be long until a lot of drivers need to begin 700 or 717 training and the necessary conversion courses, and if that slips behind then there are added problems for the Moorgate services going forward.
New PDF Timetables now showing on the GN site
https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/timetables
https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/timetables
bramling
Veteran Member
I think people are fast coming to realise that their local railway is now much more vulnerable to problems elsewhere - recent events are just typical examples of this. Your typical Hertfordshire commuter will, rightly, not accept a problem at Haywards Heath or Streatham as a valid reason for their service being disrupted. Going forward this is far more of a threat than the driver shambles. At the moment we’re seeing delays of 30+ minutes on many services originating from the core, and this isn’t all down to driver issues by any means.
Silver Cobra
Member
Looking at the 'new' timetable from July 15th, it's good to see that they plan to reintroduce the 0655 northbound departure from Arlesey (0618 from Kings Cross). That service has been cancelled pretty much every weekday since the introduction of the new timetable. I'm using a 7-day ALR from July 28th with plans to use the 0748 LNER service from Peterborough on several of the weekdays, which the 0655 from Arlesey connects into. If all goes well, at least I won't be facing having to arrive at Arlesey for the 0625 in order to do that.
From my experience riding them, your second point answers your first... the fasts probably couldn't take the load of a Letchworth stop when already already full on arrival whereas a few stragglers from Ashwell can get on (albeit likely to stand throughout).
Power off at King's Cross. Currently held at Potters Bar next to a LNER service as a trespasser has decided to cause mischief.
Great timing.
Edit: Power back on but some trains cancelled and quite a queue to get rid of.
Great timing.
Edit: Power back on but some trains cancelled and quite a queue to get rid of.
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bramling
Veteran Member
I suspect you’re right. Also looking at it cynically, Ashwell has lost the 2tph Royston starters (the current Royston 365s were never originally proposed to go beyond Baldock, and I suspect that will be the case once the second Cambridge semi-fast materialises), so something had to be provided to give them something which could be regarded as a faster service instead of just leaving the Cambridge slows. Ticks a political box, even if people can’t get a seat in practice.
Meanwhile, today has seen a couple of ex-core services run right time. But unfortunately aside from that it’s been another grim GN day - massive gaps in the core service, along with the usual late running. I hear the early-morning service into town was bad too with some first-thing cancellations, which had an impact on brining crews into work. London Underground was affected by this too, with many staff using these services to get to work. Roll on 15th July, but sadly expectations are pretty low... Thankfully I’m on holiday so won’t be going near GN for at least two weeks.
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tsr
Established Member
Someone decided to try to climb an overhead line structure. Luckily for them, a driver got an emergency switch-off in the nick of time. They have been removed...
A quick glace at the emergency timetable for Stevenage it seems they're attempting to run a full service in the peaks. They've never managed this since the timetable was introduced so it'll be interesting to see how this goes!
Off peak it looks as though there are fewer trains than before the new timetable came in, not in every hour to be fair but in some hours there are 3 fast services but in others there's only 1.
Going to be interesting....
Off peak it looks as though there are fewer trains than before the new timetable came in, not in every hour to be fair but in some hours there are 3 fast services but in others there's only 1.
Going to be interesting....
benk1342
Member
Bit disappointed that the 0752 from Welwyn Garden City (probably the most popular peak service) has not been reinstated...
Just seen the new timetables. Harpenden does really well at weekends - NOT - although admittedly far better off than the poor souls on the Great Northern side have had to endure for the past few weeks. We have just one train every half hour on both Saturdays and Sundays which is bound to be packed, and travelling to intermediate stations south of St Albans (except West Hampstead Thameslink) will mean a change and a 10 minute wait. It looks like having alienated the commuters they are now trying to decimate their leisure market. (Admittedly there has only been 2tph on Saturdays for the past few weeks, and the extra stopper on Sundays was exceptionally badly timed). And just to be helpful, the timetable for north of London stations simply gives a three letter code showing the trains's destination,with no indication of how long it takes to get there or where it stops. In the case of Sutton the code is SUO. I ask you!!! Would it be beyond the wit of man to show the codes as SUW for via Wimbledon and SUM for via Mitcham so that we might have a clue as to which way round the loop it will go?
I know that LSER has staff tube passes (although I'm not sure how exactly they work), which the relevant drivers pick up at the start of their shift. I would have thought that GTR has the same, if they're needed. The cost is very minor compared to the cost of delays and cancellations.
jagardner1984
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Possibly stupid question, but given the complexity merging and diverging through the core, wouldn’t there be some logic in running all services on GTR as all station stopping services ?
Yes commuters from St Albans / Hatfield etc would have a small amount added to their journeys. But surely all trains running at the same speed and same stopping patterns would allow some greater capacity / regularity of service to stations which currently have insanely irregular service since the change. It would also help move crews around more regularly.
Maybe agree a timetable review in 18months when some order has been restored ?
How DfT have kept the heat of this off themselves is truly a remarkable achievement.
Yes commuters from St Albans / Hatfield etc would have a small amount added to their journeys. But surely all trains running at the same speed and same stopping patterns would allow some greater capacity / regularity of service to stations which currently have insanely irregular service since the change. It would also help move crews around more regularly.
Maybe agree a timetable review in 18months when some order has been restored ?
How DfT have kept the heat of this off themselves is truly a remarkable achievement.
The 9.33 to Horsham from Redhill is cancelled throughout. This is a Thameslink service.
The 8.42 to Gatwick (from Reading) is cancelled from Redhill owing to it being 22 minutes late at the moment, due to overrunning engineering works. That's a Great Western Railway service.
National Rail Enquiries App suggests it will arrive 8.59. If it doesn't arrive then but later, what are the chances of them holding the 9.03 to Horsham for passengers? If they don't they will be waiting for the 9.43, which is the next one from Reading or having to get buses, which might take as long as waiting for the 9.43 for all I know.
The 8.42 to Gatwick (from Reading) is cancelled from Redhill owing to it being 22 minutes late at the moment, due to overrunning engineering works. That's a Great Western Railway service.
National Rail Enquiries App suggests it will arrive 8.59. If it doesn't arrive then but later, what are the chances of them holding the 9.03 to Horsham for passengers? If they don't they will be waiting for the 9.43, which is the next one from Reading or having to get buses, which might take as long as waiting for the 9.43 for all I know.
I think the issue with running all stations is that services will be packed at the origin and potentially leave people behind who want to go to stations further up the line. Plus of course the overall journey time (although if it took 2 hours to Cambridge, would that be worse than standing on a platform for 2 hours not knowing if your next train was running?).
If you ran trains frequently enough on the same basis I suppose it could work, but you'd then need to have some sort of crowd control measures to regulate people onto the platforms. It's basically then an emergency service (akin to what was operated on 7/7, which is coincidentally today) and people just queue to board the next train.
I don't think the service has become so bad for that to be required, but I do wonder what GTR's genuine timetable for such an emergency would be if something was ever required after another attack.
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Sounds like a normal day on shambleslink.
The journey time increase would be unacceptable. A fast service from Stevenage is 24 minutes compared to 1h3min for an all stations stopper (admittedly via Hertford but you'd be looking at an hour to call at all stations from Stevenage).
jagardner1984
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Yes but wouldn’t something that Ran with some degree of reliability be preferable ?
People talk of leaving their homes hours in advance of what they used to.
My impression from reading on here is that people’s biggest frustration is the lack of information and certainty. Surely a service that takes twice as long is better than a service with huge service gaps / cancellations / short notice changing.
People talk of leaving their homes hours in advance of what they used to.
My impression from reading on here is that people’s biggest frustration is the lack of information and certainty. Surely a service that takes twice as long is better than a service with huge service gaps / cancellations / short notice changing.
Does anyone know what happened last night to a driver? Apparently a train had to be terminated short, and the driver was set upon by angry passengers when walking back along the platform to change ends. Sounds horrific, but this is secondhand information.
Hopefully from the 15th the only issues causing cancellations will be the 'traditional' issues like a train fault, wires down, signalling problems.. Every train will have a booked driver and relief, so unless staff fall ill then all should run as planned.
I know it's going to be hard for anyone to believe this is possible, but even though it feels like years ago, trains DID run pretty well before May 20 and hopefully can again.
Weekends will provide a pretty dismal service for many though, but I think leisure travellers are considered expendable for the time being. And if it allows the drivers to get the relevant training done, it will be worth it in the long run.
At least on a weekend you'll be able to see that there's only one train an hour and plan for it. The only problem is when any one train does get cancelled and there's now a two hour wait.. but I pray this will not be common.
jagardner1984
Member
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It’s really terrifying if people are in any way thinking the staff are accountable for the state of things. Hope the Driver is ok.
SprinterMan
Established Member
9T00 0004 Brighton to Bedford
Train got to Norwood Junction and had to reverse and run via Crystal Palace due to engineering works. When the driver was changing ends he was verbally & physically abused by drunk angry passengers. Somewhat heroically, the driver agreed to take the train forward to Blackfriars where it was terminated. Passengers waiting at St Pancras for this train were put in 6 buses and 14 taxis for their onward journey. Hope to god the driver is ok, poor guy.
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