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Theresa May blames local councils for collapse of bus services despite huge government budget cuts

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Dai Corner

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Where did I specify *commercial*? I am talking about the total subsidy spent by local authorities in England and Wales (outside Gtr. London) to Operators to run "socially necessary" and School services, secured by competitive tender.

That's not a subsidy, that's a payment for services rendered as Teflon says. No different to the Council paying for a road to be resurfaced, a school built or an elderly person to be looked after.

As to the difference BSOG makes, if the reduction in fuel costs makes a service profitable rather than loss-making the operator may run it commercially rather than stop and force the Council to tender it, assuming they want to and can afford to.
 
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Dentonian

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That's not a subsidy, that's a payment for services rendered as Teflon says. No different to the Council paying for a road to be resurfaced, a school built or an elderly person to be looked after.

As to the difference BSOG makes, if the reduction in fuel costs makes a service profitable rather than loss-making the operator may run it commercially rather than stop and force the Council to tender it, assuming they want to and can afford to.

Maybe the dictionary has been re-written since I was at school (1970s), but a subsidy is where the tax payer (via local or national Govt) pays towards "current" spending eg. looking after an elderly person and IS indeed payment for services rendered. An investment is "capital" spending eg. a school building.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Maybe the dictionary has been re-written since I was at school (1970s), but a subsidy is where the tax payer (via local or national Govt) pays towards "current" spending eg. looking after an elderly person and IS indeed payment for services rendered. An investment is "capital" spending eg. a school building.

No, you’re just wrong.

When you buy your shopping, you’re not subsidising Asda. Same, when a pensioner/scholar has a journey, the LA is not paying a subsidy.
 

Dentonian

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No, you’re just wrong.

When you buy your shopping, you’re not subsidising Asda. Same, when a pensioner/scholar has a journey, the LA is not paying a subsidy.

What's an individual choosing what food he/she pays for got to do with the money Government takes off them at source and spending? When a scholar "has a (bus) journey" the LA IS subsidising the fare.

Unless I'm totally misunderstanding what you are saying, the inferrence is there is no such thing as subsidy FULL STOP.
 

Dai Corner

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Dictionary definition of a subsidy

a sum of money granted by the state or a public body to help an industry or business keep the price of a commodity or service low.

So it could be argued that BSOG is a subsidy.

An investment is

the action or process of investing money for profit.

So building a school is not an investment by that definition, though in a wider sense it may improve children's education to the general benefit of society.

Buying a bus to run a service is an investment, though doesn't necessarily return a profit. Ask the owners of companies which have gone bust recently (or a FirstGroup shareholder).
 

Teflon Lettuce

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Where did I specify *commercial*? I am talking about the total subsidy spent by local authorities in England and Wales (outside Gtr. London) to Operators to run "socially necessary" and School services, secured by competitive tender.
still not a subsidy... a payment for services rendered.... or are you saying that bus companies should run non-commercial services without payment? payments for non-commercial bus services by councils are exactly the same legally as services procured from the private sector for homecare, rubbish collection etc... and you wouldn't claim THOSE services or companies are being subsidised would you?
 

Dentonian

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still not a subsidy... a payment for services rendered.... or are you saying that bus companies should run non-commercial services without payment? payments for non-commercial bus services by councils are exactly the same legally as services procured from the private sector for homecare, rubbish collection etc... and you wouldn't claim THOSE services or companies are being subsidised would you?

The idea of bus companies running non-commercial services without payment would (in legal terms) not arise, if it wasn't for the circumstantial evidence that some such services may well be run this way. As regards rubbish collection etc - yes, of course, they are subsidised. Indeed, they 100% subsidised, unlike buses where the Operator (usually) keeps the revenue as well as the payment from the LA.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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The idea of bus companies running non-commercial services without payment would (in legal terms) not arise, if it wasn't for the circumstantial evidence that some such services may well be run this way. As regards rubbish collection etc - yes, of course, they are subsidised. Indeed, they 100% subsidised, unlike buses where the Operator (usually) keeps the revenue as well as the payment from the LA.
so, by that argument, I subsidise Tesco's by choosing them to provide me with my food, sky is subsidised by me buying my TV package from them, Orange subsidised by my internet package etc etc!
 

Dentonian

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Dictionary definition of a subsidy



So it could be argued that BSOG is a subsidy.

An investment is



So building a school is not an investment by that definition, though in a wider sense it may improve children's education to the general benefit of society.

Buying a bus to run a service is an investment, though doesn't necessarily return a profit. Ask the owners of companies which have gone bust recently (or a FirstGroup shareholder).

I think even on that basis, you'd be stretching a point to say BSOG is a subsidy. Apart from the fact that the bus passenger (via the Operator) STILL pays in more than they get out, there is no way you can describe most Adult bus fares as "low".
 

Dentonian

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so, by that argument, I subsidise Tesco's by choosing them to provide me with my food, sky is subsidised by me buying my TV package from them, Orange subsidised by my internet package etc etc!

No. - based on Dai Corner's dictionary definition not mine. Tesco and Sky are not "state or public" bodies - albeit it could be argued that the Chairman of Sky is the person REALLY running this country, not the Prime Minister. Who was it said that Brexit was a good thing because the "EU don't listen to me but the British Government do"? And it is a real shame that Lord Kerslake's jurisdiction concerning coverage of the Arena bombing only applied to the British based Media....................
 

TheGrandWazoo

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still not a subsidy... a payment for services rendered.... or are you saying that bus companies should run non-commercial services without payment? payments for non-commercial bus services by councils are exactly the same legally as services procured from the private sector for homecare, rubbish collection etc... and you wouldn't claim THOSE services or companies are being subsidised would you?
It is not a subsidy.

When a pensioner or scholar fare is issued, the payment to the operator is a payment in return of services.

If it’s a subsidy, it is to the individual whose fare is being paid for by the LA, not to the operator.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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No. - based on Dai Corner's dictionary definition not mine. Tesco and Sky are not "state or public" bodies - albeit it could be argued that the Chairman of Sky is the person REALLY running this country, not the Prime Minister. Who was it said that Brexit was a good thing because the "EU don't listen to me but the British Government do"? And it is a real shame that Lord Kerslake's jurisdiction concerning coverage of the Arena bombing only applied to the British based Media....................
Has the sun got to you??????
 

Teflon Lettuce

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No. - based on Dai Corner's dictionary definition not mine. Tesco and Sky are not "state or public" bodies
ah but therein you miss the point, the post I was responding to was saying rubbish collection is subsidised BY THE COUNCIL, therefore my point was that if, by paying private enterprise to provide me with rubbish collection is subsidised by the council, then any goods or services I buy directly from a supplier is a subsidy to that supplier.
 

Dai Corner

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I think even on that basis, you'd be stretching a point to say BSOG is a subsidy. Apart from the fact that the bus passenger (via the Operator) STILL pays in more than they get out, there is no way you can describe most Adult bus fares as "low".

I'm not sure what "pays in more than they get out" means? The passenger pays a fare and the operator allows him to travel. How is a sum of money more or less than being transported a certain distance?

I'd suggest that if BSOG was stopped fares would rise and some marginally profitable services would stop being operated commercially (as I explained above).
 

Deerfold

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And then didn't the next guy cancel further orders of the buses his predecessor introduced?

Substantial public funding => political input => situations like this.

No, no orders were cancelled. After the current Mayor was elected, TfL have made no new orders for these rather expensive buses.
 

Robertj21a

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No. - based on Dai Corner's dictionary definition not mine. Tesco and Sky are not "state or public" bodies - albeit it could be argued that the Chairman of Sky is the person REALLY running this country, not the Prime Minister. Who was it said that Brexit was a good thing because the "EU don't listen to me but the British Government do"? And it is a real shame that Lord Kerslake's jurisdiction concerning coverage of the Arena bombing only applied to the British based Media....................


It might help others (certainly me !) if we just got back to the key subject matter - it was about bus services by the way......

:E
 

Stan Drews

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Where local authorities tender for the operation of bus services, and they subsequently pay an operator to provide that service then they are providing a subsidy to maintain the bus service, NOT the operator. When politicians include such sums in headline figures regarding subsidy to the bus industry it is highly misleading.
 
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It is certainly a well known trend across the world that young people have less interest in learning how to drive compared to earlier generations. The car is considered to be "old tech" and many young people would rather have an expensive phone rather than a car. But are young people actually using buses much, or do they organise their lives so they don't need really buses and can get away with trains, Ubers and the odd lift from mum or dad?

it depends where you are looking at ... in the big cities / TfL area where there are traines from 0dark 30 until midnight and 24/7/ 363 buses ... there are fewer and fewer reasons to have a car unless you need one to commute / you travel for work - even needing a car for the supermarket / DIY shed / IKEA shopping trips has go by the wayside with supermarket home delivery and car club / store's own hire by the hour on vans etc ... add in the price of insurance in the big cities for young drivers ... also given that public transport travle time is not 'dead ' time any longer thanks to smartphones and tablets ...
 

Dentonian

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it depends where you are looking at ... in the big cities / TfL area where there are traines from 0dark 30 until midnight and 24/7/ 363 buses ... there are fewer and fewer reasons to have a car unless you need one to commute / you travel for work - even needing a car for the supermarket / DIY shed / IKEA shopping trips has go by the wayside with supermarket home delivery and car club / store's own hire by the hour on vans etc ... add in the price of insurance in the big cities for young drivers ... also given that public transport travle time is not 'dead ' time any longer thanks to smartphones and tablets ...
Both these comments are of course generalisation s though I suppose the operative word is "cities". Wilmslow Road & Stockport Road into Manchester may well have 24/7/362 services but most other Night Services have gone in recent years and most low car ownership district s have buses for less hours in the week than pre 1986. As for being on buses not being "dead' time - it's a good job. Where I used to live there were 9 buses an hour in the am peak with journey times between 28 & 43 minute s. Now there are 2-3 bph (haphazard timetable) with running times between 51 & 68 mins. The distance is 7.1 miles btw.
 
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