Is this fare evasion or providing false information?

I arrived at my local station and upon arrival I saw a Northern member of staff outside and asked if I could buy a ticket on the train as I was having trouble with the mobile app. They said yes, so even though the station had a ticket machine and office I boarded the train (mistake number 1) and continued trying to buy a ticket on the app and kept an eye out for a conductor but there was none. I wasn't in a rush so had the member of staff said no, I would have just bought a ticket before boarding.

Upon arriving at Manchester I immediately approached a member staff and asked to buy a ticket and they pointed me towards a guy, I asked him for a ticket and he said no, I need your name and address. I asked him why and he explained so I told him I was moving house in the next few weeks but he wasn't bothered.

So in this moment I am thinking all I want to do is buy a ticket or pay a fine and I definitely don't want to give my current address which I am moving out of and miss the correspondence. I rent a property out to a friend so I gave that address (mistake number 2) knowing that I could definitely get the correspondence. When he asked for my ID I gave my driving license which had my current address on and he said he was writing me up for giving false information.

I haven't received a letter yet so my questions are:

How long do the letters take to arrive? I don't want to miss it
Is it fare evasion if I tried to buy a ticket and approached staff immediately to purchase one? I never attempted to leave the station
Does this situation count as providing false information?
Should I contact Northern and explain the situation and kindly ask to settle immediately so I don't miss the letter?

Adam_ said:

How long do the letters take to arrive? I don't want to miss it

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Usually a few weeks up to a couple of months. It varies a little.

Adam_ said:

Is it fare evasion if I tried to buy a ticket and approached staff immediately to purchase one? I never attempted to leave the station

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It would be if you've boarded at a station with ticket buying facilities, which you did. Once you've passed an opportunity to buy a ticket, you've committed an offence under the Railway Bylaws. These are relatively low level legislation: they do not create a criminal record (though can appear on 'enhanced' DBS checks required in some industries) and have small fines in the low hundreds.

HOWEVER, staff can authorize passengers to travel without a ticket. Your problem here is that railway companies often hear "the man on the platform said I could travel" as an excuse. Can you add any detail to the description of the Northern member of staff - ideally a name, if not a physical description? Perhaps in that instance you'd be able to follow this claim up. But in the absence of that, you'd have a very difficult time convincing anyone that that this interaction actually happened.

Adam_ said:

Does this situation count as providing false information?

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No, I don't think you have committed an offence. You need to give details of a property where you are contactable - people don't have a single 'official' address so the status of that property is up to you. An address which is a property that you own, where post can be forwarded on to you, would seem acceptable. It's also reasonable to not give an address that you're soon to be leaving. As long as your friend can promptly forward all mail to you, then it's fine. I think you're OK there with regards to the law, but unfortunately it does look suspicious.

Adam_ said:

Should I contact Northern and explain the situation and kindly ask to settle immediately so I don't miss the letter?

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As long as you can reliably receive post from the address you've given them, then I would wait. As they now have both the address that you gave them and the one that you're moving out from, I'd set up a forwarding arrangement with the Royal Mail for the address you're leaving to make sure you don't miss anything.

Thanks for your reply.

The thing is, he was adamant he take the address on my license which I am moving out from so if the letter takes weeks like you say I won't reliably receive it as it is a rental.

If I did write to Northern what do you suggest I say?

Adam_ said:

Thanks for your reply.

The thing is, he was adamant he take the address on my license which I am moving out from so if the letter takes weeks like you say I won't reliably receive it as it is a rental.

If I did write to Northern what do you suggest I say?

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You need to arrange and pay the Royal Mail for Post Forwarding from that address to your new address for the next 6 months at least.

In that case, you should set up the redirect service with the Royal Mail - it's reliable and relatively cheap and useful to do anyway for other post. Set it up for at least 6 months and that should cover you - the letter will come sooner than that.

It's not usually worth writing in advance of receiving correspondence from them to be honest. There are practical reasons for this - frankly, a certain percentage of cases won't get reported because eg the revenue inspector lost their notes, administrative errors, on review of the notes they realize that there is no case to be answered etc. etc. It's also worth waiting to see what they are accusing you of having done! Waiting for them to write first will not look bad.

When you do write to them, set out your facts as clearly as possible - you did that fairly well in the first post here. Simply say what happened. Keep the description about the address simple: "I gave the address for a rental property that I own and at which I can receive mail, rather than the one on my drivers license, as I was due to move out on date. My new address is address."

Exactly what you say about being told to board and buy a ticket on the train is up to you and really depends on your personal circumstances.

You could not make much of it, apologise for your error in boarding without a ticket, emphasise that you tried to buy one but that in future you'd always buy before boarding, and Northern would likely send you a request to pay a £80 penalty. That leaves it as done, without any prosecution. However, if all happened as presented here, you really didn't do anything wrong and so it seems unfair to pay anything other than the fare owed. It's not the most convincing story if I'm being honest - not because I particularly disbelieve it, but because train companies will hear it or something similar so often from people who are making this up. If you do emphasise it and say that you think you therefore did nothing wrong: well, if they do believe you then you may avoid having to pay £80 that you really shouldn't have to; but if they don't that increases the risk of a prosecution. The fine from prosecution would likely be more than £80 (it is set based upon your earnings); and the conviction would only impact on you if you want to work in certain industries (and even then employers may well overlook a minor prosecution like this). It also depends on what you can say about that incident. If you know the name of the staff member (do you use the station regularly? perhaps you can look out for him/her) or can give a good description then that would help. But really what you say about it and whether you chose to - (a) admit guilt, apologise and offer to pay costs and the fare owed or (b) say you were told you could board and you believe you did nothing wrong, offering only to pay the outstanding fare - depends upon your tolerance for risk and various personal factors.

Adam_ said:

and continued trying to buy a ticket on the app and kept an eye out for a conductor but there was none. I wasn't in a rush so had the member of staff said no, I would have just bought a ticket before boarding.

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It's worth noting a ticket bought via the app is not valid unless it has been purchased and activated before you start your journey. If you've been told you can buy on board - buy from the conductor, don't continue to try buying a ticket from the app.

I wasn't in a rush so had the member of staff said no, I would have just bought a ticket before boarding.

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That will sound a bit suspicious to someone reviewing your case. If you've got time to buy a ticket why did you ask if you could buy on board and why would the person say yes unless the ticket office was temporarily unstaffed or there was a long queue.

As the "man on the platform said" story rarely washes "the man outside the station" stands even less chance I'm afraid.

Unless the OP can prove this version of events its a clear cut case of fare evasion as far as Northern will be concerned.

Gareth Marston said:

As the "man on the platform said" story rarely washes "the man outside the station" stands even less chance I'm afraid.

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So why do "the man on the platform", or "the man on the other train", continue to spout, when asked?

Silverdale said:

So why do "the man on the platform", or "the man on the other train", continue to spout, when asked?

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prior to working in the rail industry i use to travel on business - possibly because i (looked) as though I knew what I was doing and wasn't in a flap because of a platform change or late running there were several times I was accosted by fellow passengers mistaking me for rail staff. Including a memorable incident when someone launched into a full rant at me because of overcrowding on a hot summers day.....I was wearing nothing on me that could possibly identify me as being staff but it still happened on several occasions.

Across the road from my station is a private car park and a car park attendant - hes a mate of mine and Big Jim wears an orange high viz - unless you read the logos its very similar to what rail staff wear....Ive had people come in the booking office irate that "the railway is now charging for car parking" or asking "when did it start" despite signs saying its a private car park and how much it costs because its across the road from the station and Jim wear orange high viz they somehow assume its a railway car park....

A fair proportion of these "man on the platform" incidences could well be down to cases of mistaken identity. Another member of the public said so is probably more often than not what happened. "Can I buy my ticket on the train", "yes mate"

Just to cut things off before we veer wildly, I don't think that this advice thread is the place to continue discussing why and how advice to buy on board, 'just travel' etc is given by 'the man on the platform'. It's useful that the Adam understands that this sort of claim is often not viewed with much sympathy in the absence of any evidence, but beyond that I'm not sure what further speculation can add.

Gareth Marston said:

A fair proportion of these "man on the platform" incidences could well be down to cases of mistaken identity. Another member of the public said so is probably more often than not what happened. "Can I buy my ticket on the train", "yes mate"

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In one case I heard someone ask a query to a man on the platform - he was in a Network Rail hi-vis jacket and had just been digging a hole. While he was rail staff it seemed a bit like the Father Ted episode when he reported Father Noel being stuck in the cave to a binman because he was wearing the same colour uniform as the cave guide.

cuccir said:

Just to cut things off before we veer wildly, I don't think that this advice thread is the place to continue discussing why and how advice to buy on board, 'just travel' etc is given by 'the man on the platform'.

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Err.. One of the questions asked by the OP was; "Is it fare evasion if I tried to buy a ticket and approached staff immediately to purchase one?"

It's a fair question and it raises a number of relevant issues for any customer who is travelling around on the rail network. Should a member of TOC staff advise a customer to buy a ticket on the train when facilities exist to buy one at the station? Can a customer follow advice given by a member of TOC staff or not? Should a customer's claim that they had been given such advice be dismissed out of hand?

The man inputted my details on a tablet device which printed out a receipt he gave me entitled 'Travel Incident Report' and states 'Northern Rail will contact you in writing regarding the facts reported today and may pursue a prosecution. Any correspondence with Northern Rail regarding this matter must be in writing to...'

The thing is, the man didn't write my version of events. His English wasn't great and he wrote 'I asked for details and was given A but the driving license shows B so I was given false details' I said they're not false details but he didn't care. Based on that it reads like a straightforward case of providing false details so I fully expect to hear from them.

So I think best case scenario for me is £46.99 mail forwarding, £80 costs and £4.40 for the ticket which is £131.39.

It's just such a pain to have something like this hanging over you. My appetite for risk in relation to a prosecution/fine is not high as I have a good job and I am vetted.

Adam_ said:

The man inputted my details on a tablet device which printed out a receipt he gave me entitled 'Travel Incident Report' and states 'Northern Rail will contact you in writing regarding the facts reported today and may pursue a prosecution. Any correspondence with Northern Rail regarding this matter must be in writing to...'

The thing is, the man didn't write my version of events. His English wasn't great and he wrote 'I asked for details and was given A but the driving license shows B so I was given false details' I said they're not false details but he didn't care. Based on that it reads like a straightforward case of providing false details so I fully expect to hear from them.

So I think best case scenario for me is £46.99 mail forwarding, £80 costs and £4.40 for the ticket which is £131.39.

It's just such a pain to have something like this hanging over you. My appetite for risk in relation to a prosecution/fine is not high as I have a good job and I am vetted.

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Trying to argue the toss about the TIR and your address status will not get you far you said You live at A and your driving license says B, you then come out with a address change story after this has been established. It makes no difference to travelling without the ticket anyway.

@Gareth Marston except I didn't come up with the story after. I told him immediately and he couldn't be bothered to listen. He just wanted to submit the report.

I didn't say I live at A.

Adam_ said:

@Gareth Marston except I didn't come up with the story after. I told him immediately and he couldn't be bothered to listen. He just wanted to submit the report.

I didn't say I live at A.

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Please read you initial post (my bold italics)

Adam_ said:

So in this moment I am thinking all I want to do is buy a ticket or pay a fine and I definitely don't want to give my current address which I am moving out of and miss the correspondence. I rent a property out to a friend so I gave that address (mistake number 2) knowing that I could definitely get the correspondence. When he asked for my ID I gave my driving license which had my current address on and he said he was writing me up for giving false information.

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The Ticket Inspectors spend their life hearing "story time tales" about why someone hasn't got a ticket so while I'm not doubting that you could have been moving but its something someones tried to pull a stunt with many times before to try and evade the consequences of not having a ticket.

If I were you I would provide an audit trail of your address changes (copies of official documents like utility bills, tenancy agreement etc) when you reply to them. You are then cooperating and corroborating your story and its more likely you will get a settlement offer.

It’s a shame that more staff aren’t instructed to wear the small personal GoPro type cameras for these types of disputes. Oddly Cross Country (Arriva) train managers are now starting to appear with them, but revenue protection staff for Northern (same parent company) don’t yet need them.

@Gareth Marston I summarised the conversation for my initial post. When he asked for my address I told him I was moving from my current address. He kept asking for my address, I kept trying to explain my situation but he didn't have the time of the day to figure it out with me so I made my own decision at that point to ensure I got the paperwork. When he then saw my driving license and saw the address was different I reiterated the point I was trying to make him, that I was moving, but he was only interested in his own prerogative.

I am going to send proof of address for both properties.

@pompeyfan I wish he was wearing a bodycam too! All I want is to have a conversation with a reasonable person from Northern about the circumstances.

There is no specific offence of “giving false details”. It may be used as evidence of dishonest, however, in circumstances where they are trying to prove a Regulationof Railways Act offence.

As has been said above, there is no requirement to have an “official residence”. The requirement is to give an address “suitable for summons” (ie one where you can be contacted at). That could be a work address, relative’s address etc.

If an authorised person has given you permission to travel then there is no offence committed. In these circumstances I’d always advise that you should take their name or ideally get something in writing before boarding. Is there any chance that you can go back to the station and find the person and see if they will corroborate your account?

Bensonby said:

There is no specific offence of “giving false details”. It may be used as evidence of dishonest, however, in circumstances where they are trying to prove a Regulationof Railways Act offence.

As has been said above, there is no requirement to have an “official residence”. The requirement is to give an address “suitable for summons” (ie one where you can be contacted at). That could be a work address, relative’s address etc.

If an authorised person has given you permission to travel then there is no offence committed. In these circumstances I’d always advise that you should take their name or ideally get something in writing before boarding. Is there any chance that you can go back to the station and find the person and see if they will corroborate your account?

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There is in fact an offence of giving false details specifically in relation to railway ticketing cases. This is defined under Section 5(3)(c) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 ("RoRA"); a conviction under this Section results in a fine of up to £1000, and upon a second and subsequent conviction even theoretically a prison sentence of up to 3 months (though this is exceedingly rare).

More importantly though, RoRA convictions generally mean that you will receive a criminal record and they must be disclosed when asked about unspent convictions, for one year following conviction. After this time a RoRA conviction is spent.

ForTheLoveOf said:

There is in fact an offence of giving false details specifically in relation to railway ticketing cases. This is defined under Section 5(3)(c) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 ("RoRA"); a conviction under this Section results in a fine of up to £1000, and upon a second and subsequent conviction even theoretically a prison sentence of up to 3 months (though this is exceedingly rare).

More importantly though, RoRA convictions generally mean that you will receive a criminal record and they must be disclosed when asked about unspent convictions, for one year following conviction. After this time a RoRA conviction is spent.

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Although more pertinently here, it is also an offence under the Railway Bylaws, specifically 23(1). As presented in this thread, I can't see evidence for a RoRA conviction being very easy - it is much more likely that they'd follow a Bylaws prosecution.

In

cuccir said:

Although more pertinently here, it is also an offence under the Railway Bylaws, specifically 23(1). As presented in this thread, I can't see evidence for a RoRA conviction being very easy - it is much more likely that they'd follow a Bylaws prosecution.

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In their letter will they specify the legislation?

Adam_ said:

In



In their letter will they specify the legislation?

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Usually, yes. Sometimes they will, however, sometimes they will specify both the Byelaws and RoRA.

If the letter from NR does go to an address where he no longer lives, I assume the new person who lives at the address would just return the mail as "not known at this address"?
Surely that would not be Adams fault as he's tried to avert that situation anyway.
Is it likely that if the initial letter goes back the NR as "not known at this address" then they'll probably just close the case rather than trying to get more info?

Adam_ said:

@Gareth Marston I summarised the conversation for my initial post. When he asked for my address I told him I was moving from my current address. He kept asking for my address, I kept trying to explain my situation but he didn't have the time of the day to figure it out with me so I made my own decision at that point to ensure I got the paperwork. When he then saw my driving license and saw the address was different I reiterated the point I was trying to make him, that I was moving, but he was only interested in his own prerogative.

I am going to send proof of address for both properties.

@pompeyfan I wish he was wearing a bodycam too! All I want is to have a conversation with a reasonable person from Northern about the circumstances.

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don't get too hung up on this side of things as i said up thread you can demonstrate that you weren't trying to mislead the Ticket Inspector about moving address (which will hopefully score you some brownie points so to speak) but you still have the issue of boarding a service without a valid ticket having walked past ticket buying facilities. Arguing the toss about the what the Ticket Inspector did or didn't do or what you think he should have done is not going to get you anywhere - you still didn't have a ticket.

ForTheLoveOf said:

There is in fact an offence of giving false details specifically in relation to railway ticketing cases. This is defined under Section 5(3)(c) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 ("RoRA"); a conviction under this Section results in a fine of up to £1000, and upon a second and subsequent conviction even theoretically a prison sentence of up to 3 months (though this is exceedingly rare).

More importantly though, RoRA convictions generally mean that you will receive a criminal record and they must be disclosed when asked about unspent convictions, for one year following conviction. After this time a RoRA conviction is spent.

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I wasn’t aware of that one! Every day is a school day!

Adam_ said:

In their letter will they specify the legislation?

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The letter will specify the facts that have led to the investigation into your specific incident, in plain English (such as "that you boarded a train without a ticket authorising travel and with the intention of travelling without paying" or whatever the Inspector's report says about supplying a false address). It will be possible for some of us on here to identify the legislation for you, from the wording used. Later in the letter will be a generic sentence listing the possible legislation that applies to the range of the most common incidents that arise on the Railways.
Only after your reply has been received and assessed, and after that assessment has determined that the evidence justifies a prosecution (rather than the out-of-court-settlement which is likely), will a specific Act or Bylaw be chosen, and that will appear in the Summons to attend a Court (if it ever reaches a Prosecution). Only at that stage will their position be knowable.

Oscar46016 said:

If the letter from NR does go to an address where he no longer lives, I assume the new person who lives at the address would just return the mail as "not known at this address"?
Surely that would not be Adams fault as he's tried to avert that situation anyway.
Is it likely that if the initial letter goes back the NR as "not known at this address" then they'll probably just close the case rather than trying to get more info?

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No; it is likely that they'd proceed and prosecute Adam. If he didn't show up at court, he'd be prosecuted in his absence - and, given that he would present no defence, he'd be likely found guilty. It'd then be up to the courts to find him to try and get the money for any resulting fine.

This is why setting up the postal redirect is very important!

Got the letter from Northern. You can read it here: https://imgur.com/a/Vf6Sueq

Any new input based on this?

@cuccir
@DaveNewcastle
@ForTheLoveOf
@Bensonby

Adam_ said:

Got the letter from Northern. You can read it here: https://imgur.com/a/Vf6Sueq

Any new input based on this?

@cuccir
@DaveNewcastle
@ForTheLoveOf
@Bensonby

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Well, as the letter suggests, you definitely should respond within 14 days. I would have thought that you would want to give details of that you were authorised to board without buying a ticket beforehand as you were having problems with the app. However, if you cannot back-up your explanation with anything that lends credence to it, such as the name of the member of staff you spoke to, or a description of their appearance, then you have to understand that from their angle it will look like a fare evader giving the common "the man on the platform said..." excuse.

Has the address business been sorted? Do they now have your correct address?

From your description of the incident I would find it hard to consider this a Regulation of Railways Act offence, even if the staff member's permission to buy on board cannot be backed up. If you cannot back up what the staff member said, however, then it would seem an easy conviction for Northern to achieve in respect of Byelaw 18.

When you give your account it may be advisable to apologise for the time and inconvenience the matter has expended for Northern, promise always to buy a ticket before you board next time, and offer to settle out of Court for any fare as yet unpaid, plus their costs to date. Obviously, if you want to do this then you should be aware that it may be considered an admission of guilt depending on how you word it, so if you later wanted to plead 'not guilty' to any prosecution then it may not be wise to 'fess up' to anything. It's up to you.

Anyway, that's just my advice - I would wait for others' advice before sending anything off. When you do send your response, you'll want to get proof of postage at a Post Office so you can prove you sent the letter to show you have engaged with the process (if the letter were to get lost for whatever reason).