"Govia Thameslink boss in first class row"

DarloRich · 12 Jul 2018

pembroke said:
Small point, but his bag appeared to be train crew standard issue, with "high vis" , presumably to aid evacuation?

I have one very similar and I work in the department of tea drinking.

pembroke said:
Also, having been identified as TOC management, whatever the rights and wrongs, he could have volunteered to give up his seat and also apologise for the overcrowding. In BA this was called "customer recovery", often used when flights were overbooked, done tactfully and with passengers as the immediate priority.

OK - but those passengers had no right to sit where he was. If he was stopping FC passengers taking a seat then fine.

pembroke said:
Hopefully this will do lasting damage to his career!

That seems a particularly harsh statement. What a nice chap you must be. Hopefully you will not do something in your role that isnt actually wrong but is declared wrong by internet experts which subsequently results in your immediate dismissal and defrocking.

HowardGWR said:
I can't help thinking that his real problem is his appearance. He just doesn't exude a likeable image does he - that haircut, well!? His expression is sour.

Do you have a "likable" appearance? Is your expression sour? Does that mean you cant do your job? This board......................

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HowardGWR · 12 Jul 2018

DarloRich said:
Do you have a "likable" appearance? Is your expression sour? Does that mean you cant do your job? This board......................

I'm perfect at everything. I was talking about the photo in the OP post. It's just bad luck that he was caught out but he was caught out and he should have left matters alone. Had he done so, this would not have happened. That he won't get caught out again, I can confidently predict.

We all make mistakes, even perfect people like me.

bramling · 12 Jul 2018

DarloRich said:
I have one very similar and I work in the department of tea drinking.

OK - but those passengers had no right to sit where he was. If he was stopping FC passengers taking a seat then fine.

That seems a particularly harsh statement. What a nice chap you must be. Hopefully you will not do something in your role that isnt actually wrong but is declared wrong by internet experts which subsequently results in your immediate dismissal and defrocking.

Do you have a "likable" appearance? Is your expression sour? Does that mean you cant do your job? This board......................

There is something unsavoury about his body language - it exhudes a particular message to me. If I was planning to stage a photo to give out an appearance of smugness and arrogance I think it would be hard to surpass. It’s not his appearance, but the way he has presented himself - spread out across two seats with all his belongings.

I think it’s fair to say that most people wouldn’t have got themselves into the situation which he did. Either sit there inconspicuously, or handle the situation sensitively - surely not that hard.

As for being able to do his job, he did leave LU under a bit of a cloud, hence why he spent some time running a fish bar.

Deepgreen · 12 Jul 2018

It's been said already, and I've been in the US for a few weeks so am catching up, but a proper TOC/operator would probably not have aroused this sort of outrage. With the history of GTR being so dire and so public, this was always going to happen at some point. He appears to have mis-managed it badly - either call the on-train staff (if any) to resolve it, or ignore it (never mind the moral/legal rights and wrongs). It's now so commonplace for people to sit or stand in first class without authority that the morale-busting actions of GTR over the last few years have meant that the situation cannot be controlled.

Deepgreen · 12 Jul 2018

HowardGWR said:
I'm perfect at everything. I was talking about the photo in the OP post. It's just bad luck that he was caught out but he was caught out and he should have left matters alone. Had he done so, this would not have happened. That he won't get caught out again, I can confidently predict.

We all make mistakes, even perfect people like me.

A contradiction in itself - another mistake!

Deepgreen · 12 Jul 2018

pembroke said:
Small point, but his bag appeared to be train crew standard issue, with "high vis" , presumably to aid evacuation? Also, having been identified as TOC management, whatever the rights and wrongs, he could have volunteered to give up his seat and also apologise for the overcrowding. In BA this was called "customer recovery", often used when flights were overbooked, done tactfully and with passengers as the immediate priority. Hopefully this will do lasting damage to his career. but will probably see a sideways move and then onwards and ruthlessly, upwards!

I don't think this is a small point - the bag indicates an operational capability that he may have been sensible not to display.

Taunton · 12 Jul 2018

swaldman said:
One of the things that 1st pax pay for is not being crammed into a crowded train and having to stand for 3 hours. Whether it's right to let them do that at everybody else's expense, or better to let other pax expand into that space, will always be a source of disagreement. Ethically one might say that the solution is "more, longer trains", but TOCs don't really have any incentive for that... so long as people will carry on paying £80 to stand, it's all good

Aside from a small number of services into generally London in the morning, and back out in the evening, First Class is commonly empty stock on those services where they do not sell it off cheaply as Advances for just a bit more than Standard. I doubt an after-1100 arrival into Victoria had that many. Gross overprovision of First Class within a fixed formation has long been an issue. In the days when the Glasgow-Edinburgh service was formed of 6 loco-hauled coaches, one of which was First Class, it was normal to find it completely empty.

It does, however, and always has done, thus form a sort of rolling private menbers club, available on any departure, for those higher grades of railway management who get given First Class passes. As here.

Bletchleyite · 12 Jul 2018

One of the problems on Southern services is that it's often not partitioned off and has the same seats as Standard. This rather limits its credibility, particularly off-peak when the price differential is massive.

If it was partitioned off and had a clear value proposition (i.e. one seat fewer across the width of the train than Standard) it might seem less ridiculous.

AlterEgo · 12 Jul 2018

pembroke said:
Small point, but his bag appeared to be train crew standard issue, with "high vis" , presumably to aid evacuation? Also, having been identified as TOC management, whatever the rights and wrongs, he could have volunteered to give up his seat and also apologise for the overcrowding. In BA this was called "customer recovery", often used when flights were overbooked, done tactfully and with passengers as the immediate priority. Hopefully this will do lasting damage to his career. but will probably see a sideways move and then onwards and ruthlessly, upwards!

Imagine wanting someone who used their travel facilities correctly and who tried to uphold the rules for the benefit of passengers who had paid to be there, to have lasting damage to his career. The state of some people on this forum, the bitterness.

It was bad PR, inadvisable and naive, but not much else.

Darandio · 12 Jul 2018

pembroke said:
Small point, but his bag appeared to be train crew standard issue, with "high vis" , presumably to aid evacuation? Also, having been identified as TOC management, whatever the rights and wrongs, he could have volunteered to give up his seat and also apologise for the overcrowding. In BA this was called "customer recovery", often used when flights were overbooked, done tactfully and with passengers as the immediate priority. Hopefully this will do lasting damage to his career. but will probably see a sideways move and then onwards and ruthlessly, upwards!

But volunteer to give up his seat to who? When you consider there were numerous vacant seats around him.

6Gman · 12 Jul 2018

Bishopstone said:
On the one hand - disastrous, tone deaf PR.

On the other hand, if GTR expect their front line staff to enforce First Class, then I give this senior guy some credit for being consistent and doing likewise.

(Whether there should be First Class on these services, and whether railway staff and managers should be entitled to use it are separate questions, and not directly relevant.)

What Bishopstone has just said.

Terrible PR but the reality is that First Class is for passengers who have paid extra to sit in there (or have qualified for such travel in whatever way).

6Gman · 12 Jul 2018

All Line Rover said:
This isn't a Govia-specific problem - ticket inspections are no better on London Northwestern Railway compared to London Midland even though Abellio is now (largely) in charge.

Have travelled on two LNW services today. In both cases had my tickets checked despite having boarded at barriered stations.

Fawkes Cat · 12 Jul 2018

This was touched on back on page 1 of the thread, but I think bears repeating In different words:

There are two problems. One is that (rightly or wrongly) GTR are not flavour of the month, so bad news about them will become a story faster than bad news about (random example) Chiltern Trains.

The other is that the gentleman in question has not behaved either wholly rightly or wholly wrongly, so everyone can find support for their views in his actions. It's worth counting out these points:
- the gentleman was travelling in first class: PRESUMABLY RIGHT: no one has suggested that someone at his grade wouldn't have a first class pass. The issue of whether someone at his grade *should* have a first class pass is rather different
- the gentleman supported train crew and the company by removing unauthorized passengers from the first class area: RIGHT: he was enforcing the railway rules
- the gentleman occupied a first class seat, not (as far as I can tell) restricting a paying first class passenger from having a seat: RIGHT: I don't imagine that the rules that applied when I was with BR 21 or more years ago have changed in that respect
- the gentleman then spread his possessions over another seat: WRONG, and this is where the problem emerges. For everything else, it's easy on the basis of the rules to defend the gentleman's behaviour (even if that involves the apologist being rather stiff-necked), but this one action suggests he believes that he has more rights than a paying passenger. As many people have said here, at the very least that isn't good PR.

6Gman · 12 Jul 2018

Ploughman said:
I suppose down rating 1st to Standard was not thought about.

If - as suggested by the company spokesperson - there were empty Standard seats elsewhere on the train why would declassifying or down rating 1st to Standard be necessary or appropriate?

Darandio · 12 Jul 2018

Fawkes Cat said:
the gentleman then spread his possessions over another seat: WRONG, and this is where the problem emerges.

I really don't see a problem emerging here, not in a First Class area with several other empty seats. If the First Class area fills up and he prevents a fare paying passenger from sitting down then it becomes a problem. But it didn't so it wasn't.

tony6499 · 12 Jul 2018

On Facebook last week Hove MP Peter Kyle was telling anyone to sit in First Class whether they had a First Class ticket or not if the train was late, crowded or both and he would deal with any problems resulting. I'm not sure how he would deal with the problems but that sort of thing only makes situations like these worse.

bramling · 12 Jul 2018

tony6499 said:
On Facebook last week Hove MP Peter Kyle was telling anyone to sit in First Class whether they had a First Class ticket or not if the train was late, crowded or both and he would deal with any problems resulting. I'm not sure how he would deal with the problems but that sort of thing only makes situations like these worse.

Very stupid thing to advise people - how is he going to deal with someone picking up a RORA prosecution?

bramling · 12 Jul 2018

Darandio said:
I really don't see a problem emerging here, not in a First Class area with several other empty seats. If the First Class area fills up and he prevents a fare paying passenger from sitting down then it becomes a problem. But it didn't so it wasn't.

So how did he get drawn into a row? He’s obviously chosen to stick his neck out, and one has to wonder what his motive was for choosing to do that, especially when it was evidently carried out rather clumsily. Which takes us back to poor judgement.

Darandio · 12 Jul 2018

bramling said:
So how did he get drawn into a row? He’s obviously chosen to stick his neck out, and one has to wonder what his motive was for choosing to do that, especially when it was evidently carried out rather clumsily. Which takes us back to poor judgement.

I'd hazard a guess that pointing a camera/phone at him might have got him going. How do you know something wasn't said to him to get him to react? I wasn't there, I assume you weren't.

Besides, the post you quoted was about his bag.

DarloRich · 12 Jul 2018

I despair at the character judgement experts here are making of this chap. it is fine to criticse him for sitting somewhere you don't think he should. It is not fine to attack him, his character, reputation, competency or his employment on that basis.

perhaps you have met the man and are qualified so to judge. I have not so wont.

OxtedSignaller · 12 Jul 2018

End of the day it is the government who have decided to retain first class on Southern services even though there is nothing different, same layout, same seating, the odd train has plug sockets in first but the majority don't, no catering on board anyway etc etc

In my opinion unless they are going to enhance the offering and make it worthwhile it may as well go at least we would not have to hear moaning from both sides the first class passengers whose tickets never get checked and the standard class customers who want to sit in the remaining couple of seats

Tetchytyke · 12 Jul 2018

I'm just pleased to see a manager doing some grafting and enforcing the rules.

There's an easy way to be able to lounge in the unbridled luxury of GTR first class, and that's to buy a ticket.

Mingulay · 12 Jul 2018

Arctic Troll said:
I'm just pleased to see a manager doing some grafting and enforcing the rules.

There's an easy way to be able to lounge in the unbridled luxury of GTR first class, and that's to buy a ticket.

With respect. I think we all acknowledge that. This is only a debate here or of media interest because from what I perceive some distance away is this is A TOC with a low customer satisfaction. This guy has just reinforced the perception that the management is desensitised to what the customer thinks about the service they get day in day out. So he just fuels dissatisfaction. Hardly an action of a management regime where they care about perception and customer focus. The first class ticket is with respect irrelevant. It’s blatently obvious by the furore that he has not done has done his company any favours in eyes of the fare paying passengers who’s views and opinions are in the final anylasis paramount ! I suspect with the valuable benefit of hindsight he would agree.

Tetchytyke · 12 Jul 2018

Mingulay said:
The first class ticket is with respect irrelevant. It’s blatently obvious by the furore that he has not done has done his company any favours in eyes of the fare paying passengers who’s views and opinions are in the final anylasis paramount !

The first class ticket is not irrelevant. He's enforced the rules and people are moaning because they didn't get a free ride. "Jam packed train". Aye, sure it was.

The poor reputation of GTR is why it's newsworthy. But the reputation of the TOC doesn't mean anyone who wants a free ride can have one.

Good on him, I say. Plenty of other managers would hide the lanyard.

CeeJ · 12 Jul 2018

Fawkes Cat said:
- the gentleman supported train crew and the company by removing unauthorized passengers from the first class area: RIGHT: he was enforcing the railway rules

While his actions can perhaps be justified, if there was standing room only in standard, as has been alleged, enforcing First Class rules to people standing up is just dickish (this is assuming the story is true).

matt_world2004 · 12 Jul 2018

Does the operations manager have the authority to check tickets he may be able to advise passengers not to sit in first class but I dont think he has the authority to check tickets and demand that they dont

Mingulay · 12 Jul 2018

Arctic Troll said:
The first class ticket is not irrelevant. He's enforced the rules and people are moaning because they didn't get a free ride. "Jam packed train". Aye, sure it was.

The poor reputation of GTR is why it's newsworthy. But the reputation of the TOC doesn't mean anyone who wants a free ride can have one.

Good on him, I say. Plenty of other managers would hide the lanyard.

Well yes no one will argue you buy a ticket first class gets you a seat. But you seem to be blinkered to the context. I'm sure you won't defend ticket rules above all else in whats is managerial decency and what's bordering on "me first" dictat.

Can't say "good on him" is a sentiment that is a to be applauded

TheAlbanach_ · 12 Jul 2018

He had the chance to do some good pr for southern (for once) and get our his seat and let standing people sit, but didn't. Wouldn't have cost the company anything and for once could shed them in a good light.

DarloRich · 12 Jul 2018

TheAlbanach_ said:
He had the chance to do some good pr for southern (for once) and get our his seat and let standing people sit, but didn't. Wouldn't have cost the company anything and for once could shed them in a good light.

Yet experts here often moan rules aren't enforced. It seems many are happy to have rules that suit their bias rather than rules

Bromley boy · 12 Jul 2018

matt_world2004 said:
Does the operations manager have the authority to check tickets he may be able to advise passengers not to sit in first class but I dont think he has the authority to check tickets and demand that they dont

I’d imagine so - as a TOC employee - albeit in management grade.

However I imagine he wouldn’t have any authority to issue penalty fares and would lack the training to interview people under caution as revenue inspectors are able to do.

He does look a bit of a kn*b in that photo and it is certainly bad PR. I wonder if the situation could have been handled a little more sensitively? Apparently he was handing out his business card to people he’d ordered out of first class which seems somewhat bizarre.

I’m surprised anyone working for a TOC would stick their neck out like that, although of course he was within his rights to do so.

"Govia Thameslink boss in first class row"

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