RMT's Steve Hedley attacked by mob

Teflon Lettuce said:

That's the problem with so much of debate in this country... too much opinion and statistics argued as empirical fact!

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If you're well versed in the facts of what causes crime, why haven't you explained what they are? Most people will defer to the judgement of experts who author government reports, but if you aren't going to then what do you have to add?

Teflon Lettuce said:

just like no-one can prove that Brexit caused the spike in hate crimes... only put forward evidence that suggests it to be so!

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Nobody can actually prove anything at all though. The only thing anyone can ever do is put forward evidence that suggests one thing or another. If you dislike the evidence, or have what you say is better evidence then great. But as it seems you do not then what is your point? That this is not a certainty? Of course it's not. Nothing is.

If you set the bar at proof you will always fail. Can you demonstrate a proof to me that you or I exist?

transmanche said:

I guess we'll have to disagree then.

No, even I don't believe Farage et al would support such things. But that fact that at least one UKIP flag-waver was present suggests that some UKIP supporters are also supporters of violence.

Firstly you're making a massive assumption that anti-Trump protestors also voted to remain.

Secondly, I'm not aware of any violence being reported at the many anti-Trump demonstrations across the country on Friday.

And thirdly there's absolutely no evidence that "the remain vote at large has promoted violence" (whatever you mean by that), but plenty of evidence that the leave vote has emboldened those on the far-right to commit violence.

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That's a photo of a very large crowd, so to pick out the one UKIP flag and use that to tar everyone in that crowd as a violent far-right extremist is disingenuous at best.
I'm on the left (some might say far-left) but being so economical with the truth does not help the cause. I really wish the left would stop shooting itself in the foot by constantly banging the "leavers are all racists" drum. Even if it were true, it's still political suicide to make that your argument.

Starmill said:

If you're well versed in the facts of what causes crime, why haven't you explained what they are? Most people will defer to the judgement of experts who author government reports, but if you aren't going to then what do you have to add?


Nobody can actually prove anything at all though. The only thing anyone can ever do is put forward evidence that suggests one thing or another. If you dislike the evidence, or have what you say is better evidence then great. But as it seems you do not then what is your point? That this is not a certainty? Of course it's not. Nothing is.

If you set the bar at proof you will always fail. Can you demonstrate a proof to me that you or I exist?

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why do I need to provide proof? all I am doing is stating a fact. There are many on here that are stating as fact that "there was a vote for Brexit... then there was a spike in hate crime... ergo the vote caused the rise in crime" but and it's a BIG but no-one can provide any evidence... it is NOT a fact it is an opinion.

If you were to go to court and wished to sue Brexit for causing hate crime you would have to prove that it was a fact, and no matter what evidence you provide the case would be thrown out of court because you could only provide an opinion...

at the end of the day you cannot prove that Brexit had an adverse effect on hate crime because you do not know what would have happened had the Brexit vote gone the other way....

Teflon Lettuce said:

why do I need to provide proof? all I am doing is stating a fact. There are many on here that are stating as fact that "there was a vote for Brexit... then there was a spike in hate crime... ergo the vote caused the rise in crime" but and it's a BIG but no-one can provide any evidence... it is NOT a fact it is an opinion.

If you were to go to court and wished to sue Brexit for causing hate crime you would have to prove that it was a fact, and no matter what evidence you provide the case would be thrown out of court because you could only provide an opinion...

at the end of the day you cannot prove that Brexit had an adverse effect on hate crime because you do not know what would have happened had the Brexit vote gone the other way....

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If you're stating something as a fact, and others disagree on the veracity of that "fact", then yes you DO have to provide evidence to support your position.

61653 HTAFC said:

If you're stating something as a fact, and others disagree on the veracity of that "fact", then yes you DO have to provide evidence to support your position.

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all I am stating is that to say Brexit caused a spike in hate crime is fact is incorrect... it is NOT a fact it is an opinion.. simply because you cannot verify that a different outcome to the referendum would have given a different outcome to hate crime. I do not need to provide evidence of that FACT other than to state that we cannot access a parallel universe to see all the different outcomes... we can make an assumption that one caused the other, but we cannot prove it to be so...

NOTE I have not said one way or the other as to what I believe... all I am stating is that you cannot state an opinion/ assumption as a matter of fact.

The vote itself may have inflamed racial tensions but it is disingenuous to put any blame to ordinary people on either side.

1) Some people in the Leave camp suggested that foreign people are evil and should be ejected from our country
2) Some people in the Remain camp suggested that everyone who is white working class British should shut up because they are thick and racist and their lives and problems don't matter
3) The likes of the BNP existed long before the EU referendum and even though their press profile has diminished in recent years they haven't gone away. They're still here and are just as nasty and obnoxious as they used to be
4) Some of those who support BNP style politics may have ended up in UKIP
5) Some of those in UKIP may have genuine concerns about uncontrolled immigration without being racist
6) Some of those in UKIP may have genuine concerns about the direction of the EU and believe that its mandate has far overreached beyond a trade organisation, and not really give a toss about immigration, and are not racist
7) (back on topic) Public figure in union is assaulted at demonstration by people who disagree with him - simple criminal incident which should be dealt with by normal criminal procedures - has absolutely nothing to do with Leave or Remain voters

The rise to the forefront of the national discussion of our status in the EU may have given those already predisposed to racist nastiness an excuse to show it, but they would have that predisposition anyway.

Result 52% Leave 48% Remain
Nasty child: "Get out of our country, my Dad says most of us want you to leave"

Result 40% Leave 60% Remain
Nasty child: "Get out of our country, my Dad says a lot of us want you to leave"

None of this suggests either side of the vote has any responsibility for this, it's just a side effect of it happening in the first place. Shame, but some will always abuse a legitimate democratic process for their own twisted ends.

Leave voter - in much agreement with @Bromley boy on here - but he expresses it better than I can.

61653 HTAFC said:

If you're stating something as a fact, and others disagree on the veracity of that "fact", then yes you DO have to provide evidence to support your position.

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This is this thread summed up. Unfortunately, some people have no understanding of the scientific method. A working hypothesis with limited evidence is a poor basis for decision-making, but unless you have an opposing hypothesis and better evidence to present I'm not sure why people are strongly against it. It throws up a question over their motives.

Having said that I don't see at all what it matters here to this case.

Recent events have given the Far Left and Far Right a platform to protest and also a platform to disrupt the others protesting with violent intentions. Of course there is no concrete proof, but I bet they each go to the others protests masked up with the intention of causing trouble.

That said, each group has to take responsibility for the actions attributed to their group. The rise in Hate Crimes could be attributed to either of a) there being more hate crimes, b) there being more hate crimes being reported, c) more crimes being classified as hate crimes being reported. Either way, it's a bad situation and one that no correct-minded person should want

The Far Left and Far Right are just as bad as each other. Mind you, I don't get most of the Left and Right designation so I'm not sure what I class myself as - is centrist a thing?

transmanche said:

Er, yes it has. The documented increase in hate crimes since the referendum indicates that some people feel it now gives them carte blanche to verbally and physically assault those they deem to be 'foreign'.

Home Office figures show a 29% increase in hate crime in 2016-2017 over the previous year. That's a total of over 80,000 reported hate crimes (plus who knows how many unreported crimes). This was widely reported in the media last autumn; e.g. The Independent ("Hate-crime reports rise by almost a third in year as Home Office figures illustrate EU-referendum spike") and BBC News ("Rise in hate crime in England and Wales")

Source: Home Office.

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Yep, but where's the facts that point to the referendum being the reason?

Or are people just a bit sick and tired of politicians... which are in the news daily these days?

Perhaps people are just hating people because they feel hard done by because of the economy?

I feel hard done by because I paid the going rate for my house, but now they're on about limiting house prices. That makes me want to hate. Not to anyone or any group, but anyone who stands in front of me at the point where I decide to blow off a bit of steam.

I'm hating that the remain voters seem hell bent on stopping this, or delaying it at every point, while the leave voters are desperate for us to get out whatever. I don't care either way, so long as we stop this bickering so we can all get on with our lives and see what will happen with trading, the economy and such.

Geezertronic said:

Recent events have given the Far Left and Far Right a platform to protest and also a platform to disrupt the others protesting with violent intentions. Of course there is no concrete proof, but I bet they each go to the others protests masked up with the intention of causing trouble.

That said, each group has to take responsibility for the actions attributed to their group. The rise in Hate Crimes could be attributed to either of a) there being more hate crimes, b) there being more hate crimes being reported, c) more crimes being classified as hate crimes being reported. Either way, it's a bad situation and one that no correct-minded person should want

The Far Left and Far Right are just as bad as each other. Mind you, I don't get most of the Left and Right designation so I'm not sure what I class myself as - is centrist a thing?

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Right wing and left wing are increasingly irrelevant descriptors in a world where the main political conflicts are between authoritarianism and libertarianism, and globalism and localism/nationalism.

Teflon Lettuce said:

when have the far right ever needed an excuse? or the loony left for that matter....

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I find that Hope Not Hate are the ones who incite violence on others far worse than what the EDL lot do.

When EDL have a punch up its the sort of punch up that you'd associate outside a pub on a Friday / Saturday night, but when Hope Not Hate are having a punch up they cover their faces (so that no one can identify them) and use placards as weapons.

Bromley boy said:

I don’t think UKIP have ever been in favour of EDL style violence. In fact I seem to remember Nigel Farage himself was intimidated by a load of anti UKIP protesters in Downe when out with his family, a few years back.

Several arrests in relation to the above violence were from the anti trump side, so may have voted remain, but I don’t see you trying to argue that the remain vote at large has promoted violence.

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UKIP have never been in favour of using any style of violence, its mostly the far to extreme left groups (such as Hope Not Hate) that use violence towards UKIP.

It was members of Hope Not Hate that intimidated Nigel Farage and his family.

Either way Nope Not Hate's violent tactics / actions will have resulted in the attack on Steve Hedley.

NorthernSpirit said:

Either way Nope Not Hate's violent tactics / actions will have resulted in the attack on Steve Hedley.

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Nobody’s going to buy that.

NorthernSpirit said:

I
When EDL have a punch up its the sort of punch up that you'd associate outside a pub on a Friday / Saturday night, but when Hope Not Hate are having a punch up they cover their faces (so that no one can identify them) and use placards as weapons.

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wow, that's an interesting justification. Did you know the EDL actually sold branded masks? I wonder why....

yorkie said:

So you are denying the evidence presented in, for example, this video, and my own observations?

Even the racists in that video admit there has been a rise since the Brexit vote, so I am unsure why this is being denied? I am not sure what the motive for such a denial is?

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It's not a 'denial' it is just noting that the demogrpahics are different and you can't compare the relatively recent past with present over this. For instance the rise in anti-Semitism is much more likely to be associated with the rising muslim population as it is with some sudden new wave of neo-Nazism. It is too convenient for people to blame all the current ills on Brexit. EU policies and especially the 'free' movement mass immigration are the reason - that is what created Brexit and where the attitudes come from not the other way round.

NorthernSpirit said:

UKIP have never been in favour of using any style of violence, its mostly the far to extreme left groups (such as Hope Not Hate) that use violence towards UKIP.

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I agree that UKIP have never been in favour of violence. However, unfortunately people from the likes of the BNP, EDL, Britain First, National Front etc. see UKIP as more electable than their own group so many have either switched to UKIP or vote for UKIP despite being a member of an extremist group. I'm not sure if UKIP try to filter membership to stop extremists and those who are members of other political parties from joining.

jcollins said:

I agree that UKIP have never been in favour of violence. However, unfortunately people from the likes of the BNP, EDL, Britain First, National Front etc. see UKIP as more electable than their own group so many have either switched to UKIP or vote for UKIP despite being a member of an extremist group. I'm not sure if UKIP try to filter membership to stop extremists and those who are members of other political parties from joining.

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I believe that UKIP does have an exclusion list in place...
They are very much a non-racist party.

jcollins said:

I agree that UKIP have never been in favour of violence. However, unfortunately people from the likes of the BNP, EDL, Britain First, National Front etc. see UKIP as more electable than their own group so many have either switched to UKIP or vote for UKIP despite being a member of an extremist group. I'm not sure if UKIP try to filter membership to stop extremists and those who are members of other political parties from joining.

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Jonny said:

I believe that UKIP does have an exclusion list in place...
They are very much a non-racist party.

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UKIP does filter potential members who want to join but they won't entertain those who have links with / or are former members of BNP, EDL or Britain First.

One thing I will say is if the RMT's Steve Hedley wanted to join UKIP, then he'd be welcome to join since the RMT are a pro Brexit trade union.

NorthernSpirit said:

UKIP does filter potential members who want to join but they won't entertain those who have links with / or are former members of BNP, EDL or Britain First.

One thing I will say is if the RMT's Steve Hedley wanted to join UKIP, then he'd be welcome to join since the RMT are a pro Brexit trade union.

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That’s about the only thing they’d have in common.

yorkie said:

Who claims that? I'd be surprised if anyone claimed that, let alone "many people"; I think you have made that up!

It's pretty obvious that a major cause of the rise of hate crimes is due to the referendum.

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...ok and what about the rise of overtly fascist parties in the parliaments in most EU countries? if we stay in the EU the lurch to the right may end up manifesting itself in us having the views and policies being espoused at Westminster. The EU is the problem and it is too far gone to reform. Germany bosses it (the Euro undervalued against the Deutschmark this has greatly helped the German economy while destroying those of countries like Greece). Hate crimes are on the rise everywhere and it isn't always the obvious parties doing the 'hating'. How many hate crimes are for instance - Croat on Serb, Muslim on Jew, Pakistani on Indian .. or any of those on the indigenous population ? For every doctor, surgeon, skilled person who arrives you are as likely to have 100 more who constitute that nation's equivalent of the Jeremy Kyle audience. Like anything else there is good and bad immigration - bad immigration is expecting this (or any other country) to cope with an influx (based on 'official' figures as they haven't a clue about the real one) equivalent to a city the size of Nottingham every year, year on year - even the must avid Remainer must see that is totally unsustainable.