TOC branding in franchise changeovers

dorsetdesiro · 19 Jul 2018

Whenever a franchise is awarded to another operator, the rolling stock usually get debranded, with the logos of the outgoing TOC removed, shortly before the changeover as occured from LM to LNR for example.

This didn't happen going from SWT to SWR, as the 444s mostly carried "South West Trains" logos until around April-May this year, 8-9 months after the changeover. It felt a little strange seeing & hearing SWR in some parts before getting on seemingly unchanged trains as if it were still SWT.
Also the defunct SWT e-mail & Twitter addresses were still shown on the electronic displays as if nothing had changed. SWT seemed ghostly by refusing to disappear!

Is the SWT-SWR example the only one or any more like this happened with other TOCs such as NatEx EA to Greater Anglia?

I thought the same may have happened with Northern as the name is exactly the same, going from Abellio to Arriva, with non-refurb trains running with the previous purple livery with the italicised N logo. But I was surprised to see in recent photos, these were debranded! I would have thought there may be no point removing the logos as the name is the same?

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dorsetdesiro · 19 Jul 2018

Ah, just remembered this.

Govia for a while continued the post-Connex nationalised "South Eastern" branding before introducing the existing "southeastern".

PHILIPE · 19 Jul 2018

ATW give up their Wales and Borders franchise in October and have already started debranding

D9009Spotter · 20 Jul 2018

My assumption is that when the previous TOC stops tradung, the brand becomes null and void? I'd be open to correction in this case as I have no idea and would also like to find out. But another good case is the Virgin East Coast to LNER. Although in this case and rebranding on a massive scale seems pointless as the Azumas will be introduced within 6 months of the OLR taking over.

DelW · 20 Jul 2018

It may make a difference how the original logos were applied. I think the SWT liveries were painted, the Desiros when they were built and the 455s when they were refurbished, so it wouldn't have meant just peeling off vinyls. I agree that SWR were very slow organising stickers, but to be fair, taking over in the middle of all the problems arising from the Waterloo blockade, they had more important things to worry about. Most commuters are more interested in whether their train is running and has seats, than the name on the side.
Where SWR do seem to be in problems is with the refurb programme apparently being way behind schedule, but that's the subject of another thread.

RDWRER · 20 Jul 2018

In theory we won't have this in the future as DfT roles out the permanent brands which will stay when the TOC changes.

DarloRich · 20 Jul 2018

D9009Spotter said:
My assumption is that when the previous TOC stops tradung, the brand becomes null and void? I'd be open to correction in this case as I have no idea and would also like to find out. But another good case is the Virgin East Coast to LNER. Although in this case and rebranding on a massive scale seems pointless as the Azumas will be introduced within 6 months of the OLR taking over.

the owner of the outgoing TOC will still own the intellectual property rights on the names and branding.

Bletchleyite · 20 Jul 2018

The Class 319 I was on yesterday proudly thanked me for travelling with London Midland...

swt_passenger · 20 Jul 2018

dorsetdesiro said:
This didn't happen going from SWT to SWR, as the 444s mostly carried "South West Trains" logos until around April-May this year, 8-9 months after the changeover. It felt a little strange seeing & hearing SWR in some parts before getting on seemingly unchanged trains as if it were still SWT.

SWT's brands were owned by DfT and there was therefore an agreement that there was no requirement to de-brand "overnight". This has already been explained quite a few times in the relevant discussions.

DarloRich · 20 Jul 2018

swt_passenger said:
SWT's brands were owned by DfT and there was therefore an agreement that there was no requirement to de-brand "overnight". This has already been explained quite a few times in the relevant discussions.

there seems to be a view on this board that all branding should change instantly on the chnage over of a franchise!

61653 HTAFC · 20 Jul 2018

Sometimes changes are subtle. When First took full control of TPE having held the previous franchise in partnership with Keolis, the "Keolis" part of the logo (a slightly stylised 'i' in Transpennine) was removed and the wording on the sides of trains replaced with new vinyls in a neutral font. This was before First launched the new livery and 'star' logo.

vlad · 20 Jul 2018

The "old" Northern Twitter account existed for several months following the changeover, at least if you believed the posters on the trains that had had the rest of the branding covered over.

Hadders · 20 Jul 2018

The South West Trains brand is actually owned by the Department for Transport not Stagecoach.

DfT were obviously happy for SWR to use it initially and Stagecoach couldn’t object to its continued use.

Whattraintoday · 21 Jul 2018

It’s interesting that all of Northern’s Pacers are still running around in the old livery, including ‘by Serco Abellio’ under the name. I’m convinced this is more than just cheapness on Arriva’s part - it means there aren’t any stock photos of Pacers with ‘by Arriva’ to illustrate their latest snafu and it places the press in the bind of choosing a misrepresentative picture either way.

And before anyone says “Why would they rebrand trains they’re going to ditch soon?”, all the 15Xs that are still in the old livery have had the Serco Abellio references removed. It’s quick and costs almost nothing, plus it’ll be over three years between Arriva taking over and the last Pacer going off lease.

***EDIT*** - Ignore the above, I spent some time in LDS yesterday, looking for any trace of Serco Abellio, or even the old Northern logo and couldn’t find it! Even on 142s.
Everything has, as others have stated below, been thoroughly removed.

Must have been imagining it, conflating the stock images of Pacers from news items about Northern’s latest problems with reality.

Ignore me, I’ll get back in my box!

. ***EDIT***

Domh245 · 21 Jul 2018

Whattraintoday said:
It’s interesting that all of Northern’s Pacers are still running around in the old livery, including ‘by Serco Abellio’ under the name. I’m convinced this is more than just cheapness on Arriva’s part - it means there aren’t any stock photos of Pacers with ‘by Arriva’ to illustrate their latest snafu and it places the press in the bind of choosing a misrepresentative picture either way.

And before anyone says “Why would they rebrand trains they’re going to ditch soon?”, all the 15Xs that are still in the old livery have had the Serco Abellio references removed. It’s quick and costs almost nothing, plus it’ll be over three years between Arriva taking over and the last Pacer going off lease.

I'm fairly certain all Pacers have been debranded, leaving them just in the blue and purple with no branding whatsoever. Any chance of a recent photo of one of them with the old Serco/Abellio branding on?

Whattraintoday · 22 Jul 2018

Domh245 said:
I'm fairly certain all Pacers have been debranded, leaving them just in the blue and purple with no branding whatsoever. Any chance of a recent photo of one of them with the old Serco/Abellio branding on?

I’ll see what I can find in Leeds train station next week.
I might be wrong, frequently am! :smile:

Tobberz · 22 Jul 2018

My worry with the new permanent branding/naming is that what might be considered hip and trendy by the livery-designers of today, will be ghastly within years (a few recent examples already come to mind!). If permanent branding discourages TOCs from altering flawed livery, then I'm cautious.

Andyh82 · 22 Jul 2018

Whattraintoday said:
It’s interesting that all of Northern’s Pacers are still running around in the old livery, including ‘by Serco Abellio’ under the name. I’m convinced this is more than just cheapness on Arriva’s part - it means there aren’t any stock photos of Pacers with ‘by Arriva’ to illustrate their latest snafu and it places the press in the bind of choosing a misrepresentative picture either way.

Are they? I don’t think they are.

The debranding of the old Northern was ridiculously comprehensive, not just on trains but every single occurrence where the old logo was seen was either removed or stickered over in the run up to the franchise ending.

Even obscure items like a CCTV notice at the far end of a Northern owned car park was dealt with.

In many cases they remain like this to this day.

dorsetdesiro · 22 Jul 2018

Andyh82 said:
Are they? I don’t think they are.

The debranding of the old Northern was ridiculously comprehensive, not just on trains but every single occurrence where the old logo was seen was either removed or stickered over in the run up to the franchise ending.

Even obscure items like a CCTV notice at the far end of a Northern owned car park was dealt with.

In many cases they remain like this to this day.

Seems like a wasted effort by Arriva-Northern, as the "Northern" name is the same as usual. I reckon the older/unrefurbished trains should have the old logos kept on the purple livery until refurbishment or taken off lease. Just remove the "by Serco-Abellio" part. However Arriva seems very quick with removing references to Abellio-Northern there and there nearly everywhere, much quicker than FirstGroup are with GWR and SWR!

FirstGroup likely doesn't need to go further at SWR stations as the signage are already in dark blue & white which fits in nicely with the SWR colour scheme as this was previously set up by SWT considering red was primarily SWT's colour.

Some SWR trains received a "refresh" makeover to the interiors that some yet to be removed old red SWT signs & stickers still can be seen!

edwin_m · 22 Jul 2018

Tobberz said:
My worry with the new permanent branding/naming is that what might be considered hip and trendy by the livery-designers of today, will be ghastly within years (a few recent examples already come to mind!). If permanent branding discourages TOCs from altering flawed livery, then I'm cautious.

Nothing to stop changes being made to the branding, especially for new trains or those that are being refurbished and re-painted anyway. Northern have done appoximately this, and the new corporate identity still has a relationship to the old one by using the same blue and white but dropping the purple and changing the logo. The important thing is that the branding isn't the property of the owning group so it's not necessary to re-brand everything on franchise change, costing money and damaging the brand loyalty (if any!) that may have built up.

causton · 22 Jul 2018

London Midland branding isn't too hard to find still, especially as the uniforms haven't changed yet - only 8 months into the new franchise! Some ticket machines still say it too but most station/on train stuff has been stickered over.

Bertie the bus · 22 Jul 2018

dorsetdesiro said:
I thought the same may have happened with Northern as the name is exactly the same, going from Abellio to Arriva, with non-refurb trains running with the previous purple livery with the italicised N logo. But I was surprised to see in recent photos, these were debranded! I would have thought there may be no point removing the logos as the name is the same?

Northern debranded everything and I mean EVERYTHING.

At the time of the changeover there was some scheduled closures in the Guide Bridge area and posters advising that with a website to check for service changes. They even blanked out the website because it was the old Northern one despite the work not yet having taken place thus preventing passengers from accessing revised timetables.

RichJF · 23 Jul 2018

As mentioned earlier in the thread, SWR have been slow to replace the South West Trains branding.

I was on a 450 on Thursday that had South West Trains internal door wraps, wall stickers, route maps, travel offer promotions. The only evidence it was SWR was the outside stickers on coach 1,4,5,8,9 & 12.
The PIS also decided to announce the service as a "South West Trains service to Poole" once when the doors had a meltdown at Farnborough! Quickly reverted back to SWR.

Chrisyd · 23 Jul 2018

At Salford Crescent the signs on the far side of the tracks facing platform 2 didn’t have the old logo removed, presumably as the sticky tape operatives did not have track access.

Does anyone know if these have been subsequently covered up during electrification blockades?

swt_passenger · 23 Jul 2018

dorsetdesiro said:
FirstGroup likely doesn't need to go further at SWR stations as the signage are already in dark blue & white which fits in nicely with the SWR colour scheme as this was previously set up by SWT considering red was primarily SWT's colour.

SWT’s dark blue and white platform signage was started just after it was being suggested as a national standard, in the Chris Green “better stations report” (If that’s the right name.)

dorsetdesiro · 23 Jul 2018

swt_passenger said:
SWT’s dark blue and white platform signage was started just after it was being suggested as a national standard, in the Chris Green “better stations report” (If that’s the right name.)

That's interesting, thanks! I suppose the "National Rail" logo, for all TOCs to share, is in dark blue.

Most TOCs obviously didn't take that on however Southeastern stations also have very similiar dark blue/white signage however with a "southeastern" logo on the left, also with Southern but dark green is used instead.

vlad · 23 Jul 2018

Andyh82 said:
The debranding of the old Northern was ridiculously comprehensive, not just on trains but every single occurrence where the old logo was seen was either removed or stickered over in the run up to the franchise ending.

They certainly missed a few places (or the stickers were quickly removed). I think the old Northern logo is still visible now if you know where to look only I haven't been to any of the places I knew you could see it for a while so can't be too sure.

318259 · 26 Jul 2018

Tobberz said:
My worry with the new permanent branding/naming is that what might be considered hip and trendy by the livery-designers of today, will be ghastly within years.

That's true, but thankfully the ScotRail logo seems to be ageing well.

Some liveries are timeless though. Would anybody seriously not want to see the Network SouthEast livery brought back?

dorsetdesiro · 31 Jul 2018

318259 said:
That's true, but thankfully the ScotRail logo seems to be ageing well.

Same with GWR.

Some liveries are timeless though. Would anybody seriously not want to see the Network SouthEast livery brought back?

The NSE brand was well thought & designed (seemed nicer than Regional Railways that I thought deserved better but Intercity & NSE seemed to get most of the focus) but it felt a bit peculiar seeing it here in the South West as far as Exeter & Weymouth!

When SWT first debuted down here in the mid-90s (I had no idea about the privatisation at first until I saw Connex operating in the east & Great Western in the north & west) that I believed NSE simply changed its name to reflect the Waterloo services which operate in the SW direction, also referring to the SWML & the correct geographical location of the terminuses in Devon & Dorset. I remember thinking at the time - that's more like it - of the new SWT name!

Due to my lack of awareness at the time I thought NSE was only for the Waterloo services - NSE to me implied "Network" for commuting into London and "SouthEast" refers to London's location - therefore the SE reference seemed odd down here then I realised it also operated out of Marylebone, Victoria & Charing Cross!

If the NSE brand was to be brought back, then some sort of variation for the SW in place of GWR & SWR then perhaps alter the name slightly to "Network SouthWest"? The government did this to SouthCentral (now Southern) before Connex took it over!

swt_passenger · 31 Jul 2018

dorsetdesiro said:
Same with GWR.

The NSE brand was well thought & designed (seemed nicer than Regional Railways that I thought deserved better but Intercity & NSE seemed to get most of the focus) but it felt a bit peculiar seeing it here in the South West as far as Exeter & Weymouth!

When SWT first debuted down here in the mid-90s (I had no idea about the privatisation at first until I saw Connex operating in the east & Great Western in the north & west) that I believed NSE simply changed its name to reflect the Waterloo services which operate in the SW direction, also referring to the SWML & the correct geographical location of the terminuses in Devon & Dorset. I remember thinking at the time - that's more like it - of the new SWT name!

Due to my lack of awareness at the time I thought NSE was only for the Waterloo services - NSE to me implied "Network" for commuting into London and "SouthEast" refers to London's location - therefore the SE reference seemed odd down here then I realised it also operated out of Marylebone, Victoria & Charing Cross!

If the NSE brand was to be brought back, then some sort of variation for the SW in place of GWR & SWR then perhaps alter the name slightly to "Network SouthWest"? The government did this to SouthCentral (now Southern) before Connex took it over!

In the overall history of the railway NSE was a short term stage. The former Southern region of BR basically ran three separate railways, referred to internally as the Southwestern, Central and Southeastern divisions. These were derived from the former privatised companies.
At privatisation they effectively just went back to the pre-NSE divisions in the south.

TOC branding in franchise changeovers

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