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Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018
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OwenB
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Sounds a lot like creative accounting somewhere along the line. Not strictly speaking a lie but...
Failed Unit
Established Member
Really?
Peak looks the same for Moorgate and off peak is down to 3tph so the same.
Into Kings Cross from WGC we have a reduced timetable both peak and off peak compared to May.
As for the weekends - pathetic sums up the current timetable.
Other parts may have improvements compared to the previous timetable but great northern doesn’t. Notice they are quick to mention other issue causing problems with punctuality but don’t mention they still do lots of skip stopping.
I really hate the way this company continues to release inaccurate information like this. The service on great northern was much better in terms of frequency and timekeeping pre-may. Yes things are better but still well below where they were and should be.
Agreed. Things are certainly better this week (let's see how the weekend goes) but there are certainly issues still remaining. Kings Lynn has had at least one morning peak/shoulder peak service cancelled on 3 mornings this week.
A specific example, but take the train I used to get most days before the timetable change - the 0949 Ely to Cambridge - this had within-5-minutes arrival at Cambridge at about 97% before May according to RecentTrainTimes. I know this is pretty accurate as otherwise I missed my bus connection.
Now it is at 0948, and this week's record for arrivals at Cambridge : 7 late, on-time, 10 late, 8 late, cancelled - ie. 20% reliability, quite a bit down from high nineties pre-May! So I can no longer rely on this train and have to get the preceding GA ex-Norwich instead. Partly this is due to the fact it starts back from Kings Lynn now and has a nasty tight squeeze through Ely North junction - but that's not my problem, the timetable should be taking that into account. Now I have to get to the station earlier to get to work on time as this train has gone from very reliable to very unreliable.
swt_passenger
Veteran Member
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They might all be running in the Southern metro area and have nothing whatsoever to do with “Thameslink” at all, which is the sort of rubbish I’d expect from a rail PR piece. Should be thankful they aren’t talking about 50,000 per year. Or millions of seats per lunar eclipse or whatever...
OwenB
Member
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Haha. Yes, now that would be a cherry picked stat!
200 trains is a drop in the ocean. I can quite easily see 200 trains per day. Kent side, which I am based, has seen the introduction of the Rainham > Luton route. For 2tph for a 12hr period that would mean 24 extra trains that were not previously part of the timetable. They also introduced Orpington > Kentish town services.
So for the wider network; the number of new routes that were introduced could be quite considerable. Granted there will be some offset with routes that have been changed, cancelled and tweaked etc but 200 seems more than reasonable.
I think there is some deliberate spin and PR going on but I believe the number is genuine.
In a single week my TOC had 12,696 trains booked to run. The TOC knows this figure and it is certainly very precise. PPM is calculated using these kind of figures. The TOC knows how many trains run on a daily and weekly basis. Therefore when they say they are running 200 extra per day, I believe that they know the exact figures and that 200 is 'genuine'
I think people are keen to put on their tinfoil hats and their +1 cloak of hatred.
Failed Unit
Established Member
I would look at it as why say anything at all. Of course it will irritate Great Northern passengers. Great northern is mentioned explicitly. However they are suffering their worse level of service since the 1990s. The weekend service is currently unusable.
Yes they may be running 200 trains more than previously. But definitely less on GN. Maybe they should have said 250 per day more previously on Thameslink to negate the GN reductions.
To me they should have save the release until they were at least on parity (including weekends) on all routes and stations.
We can just dream of when we had a ½ hourly off peak service to London Kings Cross Monday - Saturday. Now we should consider ourselves lucky it is hourly.
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How many were booked to run per day previously on GN, compared to how many are booked to run today ?
Failed Unit
Established Member
That is a good question I attempted to answer by frequency above.
However a lot of GN stations have less with probably only Cambridge and Ely doing better. As I said 4tph to Kings Cross in the peak is now 3.
Sunday’s often 1 train in a 2-3 hour period. (Hopefully that will improve soon).
Hence why I said its spin and PR. 'GTR' as a whole could be running excess of 200 pretty easily. They can state this as a fact because they will absolutely have the raw figures available. For me, at least on my TOC, I can access the raw data. I'm pretty sure that someone could post the raw data for Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern.
The same can be said of the passenger perspective. They only care about their own tiny part of the network. I think calling it a lie is very disingenuous. Total spin and PR however... Saying GTR this and GTR that is just the same as GTR placing themselves under the same umbrella.
The same can be said of the passenger perspective. They only care about their own tiny part of the network. I think calling it a lie is very disingenuous. Total spin and PR however... Saying GTR this and GTR that is just the same as GTR placing themselves under the same umbrella.
The Box Photter
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What GTR and some on this forum continually fail to grasp is that the impact of cancelling a mid-afternoon train from somewhere in south-Londonland to another place in south-Londonland is much less for passengers than cancelling a train from say Harlington to London or Elstree to London or Arlesey to London in the am peak, because the latter three journeys would normally occur less frequently and there are no alternative means of completing those journeys. Yet, GTR seems to treat all journeys as having equivalent importance, so cancelling one of the only two trains from Arlesey into London scheduled to run each hour is of no consequence for GTR when they're held to account.
It's not about running 200 more trains, its about running 200 more useful trains for passengers.
It's not about running 200 more trains, its about running 200 more useful trains for passengers.
The 0949 is fifth in a sequence of conflicting moves over the single lead at Ely North (all complying with the required 3 minute junction margin) after
-Cambridge-Norwich
-Norwich-Cambridge
-Manfield-Nottingham (heading into Ely)
-Norwich-Liverpool (heading into Ely)
The Mansfield comes across from the Up Slow at Peterborough minimum 3 minutes after an Up Edinburgh hares through on the Up Fast, which I'd suspect is the root cause...
Failed Unit
Established Member
Double checking my post, yes I did say inaccurate information. (Which I can’t prove)
So fair cop.
But the point I am making is they should not be releasing this kind of press release when a significant number of the stations covered have a worse service than under the previous timetable.
It is possible that the Cambridge- Brighton services make the number of trains ran higher than previously on GN (although this is a network wide statement)
But to me personally this press release is a bit of an “up yours” to passengers who use the routes especially at weekends. If for example you traveled from WGC on the 0755 to London kings Cross and returned on the 1752 you will not be impressed. (Pre timetable change) or if you travel at the weekends or large parts of Monday - Friday when the service is now hourly.
That is my point GTR shouldn’t be issuing such spin when the area worse hit by the timetable change is still badly suffering and they can’t tell these stations when they will get back to Pre May frequencies or if / when they will be able to run the service at weekends.
Generally I agree with you. However, that means you are saying that passenger A is more important that passenger B. Who gets to decide that ? I couldn't give a toss about peak services because I don't travel in the peak. But I need my train to get me into my hospital appointment mid afternoon, from Higham...
Aren't statistics fun
Someone else said 'lie' that part wasn't aimed at you. Apologies if you inferred that.
That's the job of the PR departments. The press do the same when they want to run a negative spin.
I tend to post to add balance. I'm on your side and internally we are suffering and really want an end to this all too. I just find that both sides are too busy hating on each other to do anything to move forwards.
Again, its their job to put a positive message out. Like I was fighting against in the North Kent thread. There is a positive side and there is a benefit and there will be huge gains. GTR just ****ed it up to be *frank
*can I still be Garth ?
Failed Unit
Established Member
Just hope this time next year I am traveling on a direct train to Blackfriars and we are both thinking what was all this fuss about.
OwenB
Member
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- 8 Mar 2018
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- 300
if you're referring to me, I did not accuse them of lying, just creative accounting
I hope that it's next week !!
But from my side..
Numerous phonecalls to control; who never answer
Cancelled or work it, not a clue
Will it turn up
Where the fork is my train
Missed PNB
Turn extended; enforced overtime
Can't pickup my kids due to changed turn
Abuse from passengers
Great, another briefing
03Xx start AGAIN !!!! FFS
Taxi back at 01XX AGAIN !!! FFS
Signaller, where am I going
Stop order AGAIN !!
Problem solving; day after day
More abuse from passengers
On time, on time, on time, stay on target, stay on target.. barstweard +10 !
Late, late, late late... Seriously, I'm trying !
*Regulation...
Caped, reinstated, caped, reinstated.. WTF !
Roster.. LOL :/
Annual leave - Declined, no cover available..
Still love being a Driver
*HEHEHEHE I see a Signaler viewing. Please stop holding me at the Creek)
But from my side..
Numerous phonecalls to control; who never answer
Cancelled or work it, not a clue
Will it turn up
Where the fork is my train
Missed PNB
Turn extended; enforced overtime
Can't pickup my kids due to changed turn
Abuse from passengers
Great, another briefing
03Xx start AGAIN !!!! FFS
Taxi back at 01XX AGAIN !!! FFS
Signaller, where am I going
Stop order AGAIN !!
Problem solving; day after day
More abuse from passengers
On time, on time, on time, stay on target, stay on target.. barstweard +10 !
Late, late, late late... Seriously, I'm trying !
*Regulation...
Caped, reinstated, caped, reinstated.. WTF !
Roster.. LOL :/
Annual leave - Declined, no cover available..
Still love being a Driver
*HEHEHEHE I see a Signaler viewing. Please stop holding me at the Creek
)
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Na, not you specifically but...
FYI Failed Unit has outright called them out as lying in previous posts *too
*meaning 'as well as...'
However, I hope you understand that's its a little more than 'creative accounting' now.
Failed Unit
Established Member
I hope that it's next week !!
But from my side..
Numerous phonecalls to control; who never answer
Cancelled or work it, not a clue
Will it turn up
Where the fork is my train
Missed PNB
Turn extended; enforced overtime
Can't pickup my kids due to changed turn
Abuse from passengers
Great, another briefing
03Xx start AGAIN !!!! FFS
Taxi back at 01XX AGAIN !!! FFS
Signaller, where am I going
Stop order AGAIN !!
Problem solving; day after day
More abuse from passengers
On time, on time, on time, stay on target, stay on target.. barstweard +10 !
Late, late, late late... Seriously, I'm trying !
*Regulation...
Caped, reinstated, caped, reinstated.. WTF !
Roster.. LOL :/
Annual leave - Declined, no cover available..
Still love being a Driver
*HEHEHEHE I see a Signaler viewing. Please stop holding me at the Creek
Yes, from what I have witnessed at kings cross I certainly feel for you guys as well.
Was on a train once with 4 drivers heading towards Cambridge. It got cancelled they were just as hacked off as the rest of us.
Suspect that was a few more trains cancelled as those drivers were now stuck at Kings Cross rather than work in a train elsewhere. No idea where the drivers were trying to get to but even if it was only Finsbury Park they were stuck. Then the unwarranted abuse from other members of the public
I did once say to one I appreciated their humour. Not sure if he thought I was taking the Mickey, but as they bought I smile to my face I thought the least I could do was pass on a complement.
Oh and as for calling them lairs. Sometimes it may be harsh. (Or proven to be incorrect) But will never retract my opinion of Charles Hortons statement on the 23rd May to the media. Or at least I hope he was lying.
I know
Given that, it doesn't take much railway knowledge to guess that this isn't going to be the most reliable service anymore. I could guess that when the draft timetable came out, one of the various things that I had an issue with.It goes on from Cambridge to be what is the first Network Card usable discount service to KGX, so this one being reliable is actually fairly important to a lot of people. But given its path, it isn't going to be
Hitchincommute
Member
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- 2 Jan 2011
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- 44
On the screen at Hitchin they are indicating “Delays from 1400 due to thundery showers.” Blame the weather for delays in advance!
Cambridge has 1 extra an hour when the Brighton is running (15 a day in the emergency timetable).
Ely doesn't have anything more over pre-May. In fact we've lost one train in the shoulder-peak (the current 0948, that I'm moaning about in the post above, combines the previous 0949 and 1007. Incredibly, the missing train actually now runs ECS from Ely to Cambridge!)
As for the weekend timetable... that's a different rant...
I watched the first Transport Select Committee meeting when GTR first took over the franchise and just sat there screaming 'you lying bas...'
When 319's were first introduced on Thameslink, there was a fairly regular interval and reliable service.
For example, off-peak there were 4 semi-fast trains an hour from Leagrave to London at 15 minute intervals.
Half hourly to Brighton and half hourly to Gatwick Airport.
Today, there are far more Thameslink trains departing Gatwick for Bedford. So 200 extra services is certainly possible. But in reality the service frequency and practicalities are worse. There can at times be 4 departures within 15 minutes, some a mere 3 minutes apart.
Yet one is a fast service to Bedford, another a semi-fast to Peterborough and then a further 2 slow meandering services stopping at virtually every Southern station to London Bridge. So rather than a regular 15 minute interval semi-fast service calling at London Bridge and East Croydon, we now have a half-hourly semi-fast/fast service, and lots of other departures primarily serving all stations services to London Bridge. Nobody in their right mind would travel end to end on the slow stopping services, so it does raise the question whether the 'all stations' services are best suited to Thameslink.
Personally, I would prefer if the Thameslink services were concentrated on semi-fast/fast services along the BML with Southern operating the slow services calling at stations such as Horley, Purley, Norwood Junction. Passengers would simply interchange at Gatwick Airport, Haywards Heath, East Croydon or London Bridge to catch the faster services.
Bedford to Brighton - half-hourly fast (12-car)
Bedford to Gatwick - half-hourly semi-fast (12-car)
Cambridge to Brighton - half-hourly fast (12-car)
Peterborough to Gatwick - half-hourly semi-fast (12-car)
Thameslink Metro services to Bromley, Sutton, Orpington, Rainham are a different matter, but some Luton services could still benefit from omitting stops at Mill Hill Broadway, Hendon, Cricklewood and Kentish Town, leaving those to the all stations services from St Albans.
Luton to East Grinstead - half-hourly - all stations to Elstree, West Hampstead then London (8 & 12-car)
Luton to Orpington - half-hourly - all stations to London (8-car)
St Albans to Sutton via Mitcham Jct - half-hourly - all stations to London (8-car)
St Albans to Sutton via Wimbledon - half-hourly - all stations to London (8-car)
Kentish Town to Orpington - half-hourly - all stations to London (8-car)
Cricklewood to Rainham - half-hourly - all stations to London (8-car)
For example, off-peak there were 4 semi-fast trains an hour from Leagrave to London at 15 minute intervals.
Half hourly to Brighton and half hourly to Gatwick Airport.
Today, there are far more Thameslink trains departing Gatwick for Bedford. So 200 extra services is certainly possible. But in reality the service frequency and practicalities are worse. There can at times be 4 departures within 15 minutes, some a mere 3 minutes apart.
Yet one is a fast service to Bedford, another a semi-fast to Peterborough and then a further 2 slow meandering services stopping at virtually every Southern station to London Bridge. So rather than a regular 15 minute interval semi-fast service calling at London Bridge and East Croydon, we now have a half-hourly semi-fast/fast service, and lots of other departures primarily serving all stations services to London Bridge. Nobody in their right mind would travel end to end on the slow stopping services, so it does raise the question whether the 'all stations' services are best suited to Thameslink.
Personally, I would prefer if the Thameslink services were concentrated on semi-fast/fast services along the BML with Southern operating the slow services calling at stations such as Horley, Purley, Norwood Junction. Passengers would simply interchange at Gatwick Airport, Haywards Heath, East Croydon or London Bridge to catch the faster services.
Bedford to Brighton - half-hourly fast (12-car)
Bedford to Gatwick - half-hourly semi-fast (12-car)
Cambridge to Brighton - half-hourly fast (12-car)
Peterborough to Gatwick - half-hourly semi-fast (12-car)
Thameslink Metro services to Bromley, Sutton, Orpington, Rainham are a different matter, but some Luton services could still benefit from omitting stops at Mill Hill Broadway, Hendon, Cricklewood and Kentish Town, leaving those to the all stations services from St Albans.
Luton to East Grinstead - half-hourly - all stations to Elstree, West Hampstead then London (8 & 12-car)
Luton to Orpington - half-hourly - all stations to London (8-car)
St Albans to Sutton via Mitcham Jct - half-hourly - all stations to London (8-car)
St Albans to Sutton via Wimbledon - half-hourly - all stations to London (8-car)
Kentish Town to Orpington - half-hourly - all stations to London (8-car)
Cricklewood to Rainham - half-hourly - all stations to London (8-car)
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I agree in the main, but I think that the further the end to end mileage the faster the service should be. So I'd say Bedford to Brighton fast, Bedford to gatwick semi fast. And I'd try to make the fasts faster, ie Non- stop Haywards heath to Brighton if there was the capacity to do so. That is what makes the Luton - Medway service so ridiculous - You can get off at St Pancras, wait about 20 minutes and still arrive in Rochester around half an hour before the Luton train gets there.
They wouldn't run a regular fast service from London to Exeter but a Semi fast London to Plymouth/Cornwall, would they? Or is that the shape of things to come?
They wouldn't run a regular fast service from London to Exeter but a Semi fast London to Plymouth/Cornwall, would they? Or is that the shape of things to come?
Minstral25
Established Member
I totally agree with the principle of your post but you have a complete misunderstanding of where Thameslink runs south of London. Many of the stations in South-Londonland are not actually in London, they are similar rural communities as Arlesey and Elstree. There have been too many posts on here about how much worse it is North of the river because my specific train doesn't run and those of us South have no problems. Having suffered in the South with many many others an appalling Rail service that cannot regularly get us home to any form of timetable, we have suffered like you too. So could we please avoid the generics.
Failed Unit
Established Member
I often think that and you know a lot more then me. I also find it very frustrating that they often accept this without challenging the source too hard.
For interest has network rail ever defended itself properly. Yes they won’t dispute they were late but have they actually given the justifications why such as low quality and late submissions from GTR creating a cycle that ultimately delivered the timetable late.
Failed Unit
Established Member
When you look at the Horsham service and the stops it skips I suspect it is as bad to use Redhill as it is Huntingdon.
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