• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Rolling stock standards - better than before?

Status
Not open for further replies.

mushroomchow

Member
Joined
14 Feb 2017
Messages
455
Location
Where HSTs Still Scream. Kind of.
The stock itself is generally better too. Thinking locally, 101s were replaced with 156 units that accelarated better, rode much better, didn't jolt etc, on the electric side the 303s went in favour of 334s, again, quieter, better riding, better heating.

I can vouch for the limited effectiveness of heating on a 101 - I rode the GCR's unit during the "Beast from the East" and the heating was only working in the front portion of the front carriage, leading to the amusing sight of the handful of passengers who had actually braved the elements being sardined into half a carriage of a 3-car unit. The crew had to defrost the inside of the cab window for the return leg.

Granted, you can't read too much into a 50 year old unit maintained by volunteers, but I imagine they were never the most reliable in that respect. I can't say I've ever been on a Sprinter that wasn't warm in the winter by comparison - if anything, their problem is their heating is TOO good for more mild weather!
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

bastien

Member
Joined
14 Aug 2016
Messages
427
Oh, absolutely. Running all the way down to the floor, mixing in with the fag ash and litter! Absolutely foul!
Then the train lurches and the water collected at the bottom of the window trickles down your leg. Happy days, eh?
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
38,958
Location
Yorks
I agree that 3+2 seating is generally horrible but I find 2+2 airline seating to generally be fine, and if I'm travelling alone, I much prefer it to the alternative of having to stare at a stranger for ages.

Yes, I generally find 2+2 airline seating fine, although it can seem claustrophobic when sat next to a stranger.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
38,958
Location
Yorks
I can vouch for the limited effectiveness of heating on a 101 - I rode the GCR's unit during the "Beast from the East" and the heating was only working in the front portion of the front carriage, leading to the amusing sight of the handful of passengers who had actually braved the elements being sardined into half a carriage of a 3-car unit. The crew had to defrost the inside of the cab window for the return leg.

Granted, you can't read too much into a 50 year old unit maintained by volunteers, but I imagine they were never the most reliable in that respect. I can't say I've ever been on a Sprinter that wasn't warm in the winter by comparison - if anything, their problem is their heating is TOO good for more mild weather!

The thumpers could certainly chuck out a fair old amount of heat into the compartments on winter days. That on the electric units tended to be less effective.
 

Southsider

Member
Joined
10 Aug 2015
Messages
758
I agree that standards have been raised over the years but something from the past has always struck me as a failure to move forward. When Scottish Region were introducing Class 303 on the Glasgow suburban network in the early 1960s, other regions were perpetuating the use of slam doors even on electric units. Why was this?
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
14,246
Location
St Albans
There's so much sentimentalism about rolling stock that one remembers from younger years. In my earlier days I had years of travelling on the ac equivalents of EPBs. So to compare with modern stock that runs the same services, the old'uns don't come out very well:
The windows, usually single glazed with wood fram liners were normally quite disgusting by modern standards. The condensation would soon damage the varnish coating on the wood when it became coated with a caked ash, dust and other passenger detritis. The drain at the bottom would often clog up causing dirty condensate to flow over and into the side padding, i.e. at upper arm's height.
The slam door locks would become slack such that the seals would no longer keep cold air and brake dust out. There would be bangs as the pressure wave from passing trains pressed the loose-fitting door into its frame. The drop windows would sometimes sieze closed or open or even not stay put closed. The locks would sometimes be too stiff to open from the inside lever, - seemingly when the drop window was siezed closed making getting out difficult.
The seats might give an illusion of cleanliness, but sitting down would force years of dust through the covers into the compartment. If you sat down very carefully to prevent this, as soon as the train started bouncing across points or on jointed track, the dust would be pumped out as all the passengers bounced in sympathetic motion. Sometimes, the ride would be so bad that the desgned-in travel together with the gradual collapse of the padding would make the seats bottom, - very uncomfortable.
Lighting was poor, - usually 2 x 40 or 60W tungsten lights set into the cream painted ceiling. There were no portable reading devices then (e.g. mobile phones or tablets), so many in the winter needed to carry a torch to read small newsprint.
Cooling was OK except that it would involve a dust-laden warm air blast in the summer (if the windows were working OK) and in the winter the heating bars under the seats would help create an airless fug that some passengers wouldn't approve of window ventilation removing anyway.
That's my memories of outer suburban commuting. All of that was in trains with a maximum speed of 75mph. Compare that with a 100mph MKIII sliding door EMU (say 321) with hopper windows, double glazing, firmer but generally cleaner seating, on board toilets, better lighting etc., forgetting the romance of deep springy seats poor lighting and poor temperature control. It's all relative to what we are used to, not what we remember through the mist of nostalgia.
 

Warwick

Member
Joined
10 Apr 2018
Messages
353
Location
On the naughty step again.
I agree that standards have been raised over the years but something from the past has always struck me as a failure to move forward. When Scottish Region were introducing Class 303 on the Glasgow suburban network in the early 1960s, other regions were perpetuating the use of slam doors even on electric units. Why was this?

For the same reason that B.R. were building steam locomotives in 1960.
Too many old men entrenched in their ways.
I believe that the 1930s Tyneside EMUs were sliding door stock as was the late 1940s Liverpool Street EMU stock. I'm sure that the train that I took from Liverpool Street to Brentwood around 1974 had sliding doors.
I've just had another thought. It's probably quicker getting loads of suburban commuter types on and off a train with a door at each seating bay than squeezing them in and out of two wider doors. So perhaps the Southern weren't quite so backward after all.
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
14,246
Location
St Albans
I agree that standards have been raised over the years but something from the past has always struck me as a failure to move forward. When Scottish Region were introducing Class 303 on the Glasgow suburban network in the early 1960s, other regions were perpetuating the use of slam doors even on electric units. Why was this?
Comparing the 303s (and later 311s), with standard slam door compartment stock is interesting. It seems that when a metro line was electrified from scratch, like the Glasgow 'Blue Train' routes, (and before that the GEML to Shenfield and the Manchester, Hadfield and Glossop line) the use of decent high density trains was sensibly chosen. There seemed to be an intention to wedge as many outer suburban passengers into semi-compartment 3+2 and full compartment 6-a-side seating, just as 'workers' had been on 57ft coach LHCS 'workers trains' for decades before. Of course the Ssouthern didn't really change from the '20s in their designs, they even re-cycled underframes, bogies and traction equipment, just replacing wooden bodies with steel p[anneled ones and making them look like new with slightly updated ends. This 'standard' outer design was perpetuated on the GEML, WA lines, LT&S and NW ac lines in the '50s & '60s. It took the PEP designs to break the mould.
 

nlogax

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
5,369
Location
Mostly Glasgow-ish. Mostly.
I grew up on the Waterloo suburban lines, and when I was a kid in the early 80s, these were operated mainly by EPBs that were about thirty years old - and they were utterly rancid. Dirty, uncomfortable, often vandalised, and most of old extremely careworn and old-fashioned looking, with dingy, gloomy interiors. They looked far older than they were, and really didn't make for a pleasant travelling experience.

It's true, many of us carry a weird nostalgia for unpleasantness and grime despite the much improved conditions on modern stock. I won't claim to be free of it. Clambering into a warm and comfortable VEP or CIG after waiting for an eternity on a cold dark New Forest platform was always a fabulous thing. Even at the time I knew Mk1 stock wasn't great. Noisy, condensation-prone, grubby and with the harshest lighting. Not to mention the safety element..Clapham was never far from our minds. But I do miss riding on them.

I'm not old enough to have been around when the PEPs were introduced to SR, but that must have been a huge step change experienced by Southern commuters back then.

 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,657
Location
Another planet...
The 144's have decent seats, and are 2+2, but the lack of leg room lets them down.
Im on a 144 right now, and managed to get one of the few bays, but the seats are a terrible shape that doesn't encourage good posture. Just goes to show that seat comfort is largely subjective!

I did get taken on EPBs as a small child but don't remember them. I do however remember VEPs, CEPs and CIGs and in terms of comfort and ride quality they were at least as good as their replacements and better than the diesel equivalents running up here.
The rattles, bangs and dust are easily forgotten when looking back with rose-tinted glasses though!
 
Last edited:

Journeyman

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2014
Messages
6,295
For the same reason that B.R. were building steam locomotives in 1960.
Too many old men entrenched in their ways.
I believe that the 1930s Tyneside EMUs were sliding door stock as was the late 1940s Liverpool Street EMU stock. I'm sure that the train that I took from Liverpool Street to Brentwood around 1974 had sliding doors.
I've just had another thought. It's probably quicker getting loads of suburban commuter types on and off a train with a door at each seating bay than squeezing them in and out of two wider doors. So perhaps the Southern weren't quite so backward after all.

The quick loading and unloading was part of the reason for the multiple-door compartment layout on the Southern - they were renowned for incredibly quick dwell times, usually around 20 seconds even at the height of the peaks with hundreds of people boarding and alighting. The other main reason they didn't go for a more modern, rapid-transit type layout was that a lot of their suburban routes were quite long, and there was a desire to maximise seating over standing capacity.
 

Journeyman

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2014
Messages
6,295
I'm not old enough to have been around when the PEPs were introduced to SR, but that must have been a huge step change experienced by Southern commuters back then.

I never travelled on a PEP, but did manage to get on board one in Strawberry Hill depot once - didn't have a camera, though. :( This was not long before it was scrapped.

It wasn't popular when it ran in trial service, considered too uncomfortable by many, and also not having enough seats, hence the move back to a 2-door bodyshell for the production trains.
 

Journeyman

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2014
Messages
6,295
Im on a 144 right now, and managed to get one of the few bays, but the seats are a terrible shape that doesn't encourage good posture. Just goes to show that seat comfort is largely subjective!

I did get taken on EPBs as a small child but don't remember them. I do however remember VEPs, CEPs and CIGs and in terms of comfort and ride quality they were at least as good as their replacements and better than the diesel equivalents running up here.

The 144 seats are the same as the ones in a few ScotRail 158s, and I think they're just about the worst seats on any trains at the moment - I can't get comfortable in them at all.

VEPs weren't fantastic and could be cramped and draughty with all those doors. CEPs in their refurbished form, at least when decently clean and looked after, were pretty good by modern standards, and CIGs were quite comfy but pretty dated inside by the time they went.
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
14,246
Location
St Albans
For the same reason that B.R. were building steam locomotives in 1960.
Too many old men entrenched in their ways.
I believe that the 1930s Tyneside EMUs were sliding door stock as was the late 1940s Liverpool Street EMU stock. I'm sure that the train that I took from Liverpool Street to Brentwood around 1974 had sliding doors.
I've just had another thought. It's probably quicker getting loads of suburban commuter types on and off a train with a door at each seating bay than squeezing them in and out of two wider doors. So perhaps the Southern weren't quite so backward after all.
Actually it wasn't necessarily quicker. Comparing at Liverpool St when a class 306, (the ex-LNER design you referred to) when packed to capacity would empty quicker than a compartment stock 'outer'. Their problem was that people would stand where sitting passengers' feet were so had to carefully step over them. Only then those sitting could move. This was also true at major alighting stops or interchanges e.g. Stratford, Shenfield, Chelmsford. If it was a quieter station at the country end of it's journey, then the more athletic commuters would have the door open before the train stopped and then jump off asap. There were quite a few injuries from swinging doors on moving trains and there were often the inconsiderable types who left the door open requiring somebody else to close it before the train would move off, so in practice the dwells weren't really much shorter and there were considerably more safety hazards which gratefully aren't tolerated today, soon to be completely removed with the demise of most MKIII HST/LHCS coaches.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,652
Location
Mold, Clwyd
Then the train lurches and the water collected at the bottom of the window trickles down your leg. Happy days, eh?

I remember travelling in 153s in the 00s (still in service somewhere today) with hopper windows which burst open when it was windy, and showered everybody nearby in rain as a result.
Among other side effects, the soaked seats always smelt musty even when dry.
Luckily hopper windows on new trains died with BR, and we have had aircon and sealed windows on all new units since.
However they will still be very common in ex-BR MUs for another decade at least.
I'm not entirely clear if the "new" class 230 conversions of D78 stock, due on my local line soon, have hopper windows or not.
Then there's the drop-light door windows on HSTs, giving access to the door handle - another design feature that will not be missed.
Left open between stations, they let all the weather in.
 

Bikeman78

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2018
Messages
4,550
An interesting thread as usually people tend to look back nostalgically at the old days



To me the EPBs were uncomfortable, with a hard ride and bouncy seats, and while when empty they had good legroom, during the rush hour very bit of floor space would be taken up by standees, and the space in front of your legs would have people constantly getting on and off at stations anyway
I always tried to sit on the opposite side to the stations along the route. Of course, I had the advantage that I got on at Horsham at the start of the journey.
 

Bikeman78

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2018
Messages
4,550
Ditto any 3+2 unit today. I suppose on an airline seat we're spared people standing directly in front of us in some cases, but I don't personally think thats any better than being wedged in the middle of a row of three airline seats without any escape.

The original airline seats on the 150s are terrible. If the person next to the wall wants to get out, the other two people have to stand up and move out of the way.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
38,958
Location
Yorks
The 144 seats are the same as the ones in a few ScotRail 158s, and I think they're just about the worst seats on any trains at the moment - I can't get comfortable in them at all.

VEPs weren't fantastic and could be cramped and draughty with all those doors. CEPs in their refurbished form, at least when decently clean and looked after, were pretty good by modern standards, and CIGs were quite comfy but pretty dated inside by the time they went.

CIG's were preferable to CEP's IMO as they were more comfortable. I also quite liked the VEP's, although I know they weren't universally loved. They were all generally quite well kept in the 90's. I'd take any of them over my current commute.
 

Wivenswold

Established Member
Joined
24 Jul 2012
Messages
1,478
Location
Essex
I think this discussion arises frequently because modern trains could be so much better. Older trains had a character of their own because of some fabulous designs and quirks. Even the PEPs, while dated, are a very unique train design of its time. Then there's the design simplicity of the HST, utterly timeless. Perhaps the last unusual-looking UK trains were the 442s, maybe even the 323s.

New trains are technically better than anything built under British Rail, but there's very little soul in them, few design quirks, no nice little extras that bring personality to them. Just a feeling of mass-production and the cheapest fittings and fixtures available to remain within contract specifications. Designed by accountants, like so much these days.

But which one would I prefer to rely on as a mode of transport? The bland one with aircon and wifi please.
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
6,845
CIG's were preferable to CEP's IMO as they were more comfortable. I also quite liked the VEP's, although I know they weren't universally loved. They were all generally quite well kept in the 90's. I'd take any of them over my current commute.

I liked the refurbished CEPs with their new HST style seating, they seemed very modern when compared to everything else south of the river, especially in Jaffa Cake livery!
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
6,845
Ditto any 3+2 unit today. I suppose on an airline seat we're spared people standing directly in front of us in some cases, but I don't personally think thats any better than being wedged in the middle of a row of three airline seats without any escape.

On modern trains there isn't the space between facing seats for people to stand in, but then there's more standing space elsewhere anyway
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
38,958
Location
Yorks
I liked the refurbished CEPs with their new HST style seating, they seemed very modern when compared to everything else south of the river, especially in Jaffa Cake livery!

The Jaffa Cake livery did look good, but as far as the interior goes, I found the facelifted phase 1 CIG vastly superior to the CEP's. Modernity is no substitute to comfort and taste.

On modern trains there isn't the space between facing seats for people to stand in, but then there's more standing space elsewhere anyway

This is true, they all tend to congregate around the doors nowadays, making it take ages to get out if you're in the wrong place in the carriage. It also has to be remembered that even on London commuter services, trains aren't full and standing all of the time. In such circumstances comfortable facing 3 person seats can be ideal for a group of four for example. Different layouts tend to work well for different loadings, however I'm old fashioned in that I personally prefer a good chance of a seat when its busy, rather than having large areas devoted to standing space.
 

Rail Blues

Member
Joined
2 Aug 2016
Messages
608
I also wonder what impact smoking had on the condition of train interiors. I remember travelling on intercity trains and the stench from the smoking carriage being unbelievable as the smoke didn't dissipate.
Even my father a confirmed 40 a day man could not handle the smell. The carriage ceilings and walls must have got stained a lovely shade of nicotine.

I can vividly remember that last time I did a journey in a smokers carriage (only seats left) it was two days into the new millennium and already it seemed like something from another era, although I believe that smoking carriages lasted until about a year or so before the smoking ban came into force. Crazy really.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,657
Location
Another planet...
I also wonder what impact smoking had on the condition of train interiors. I remember travelling on intercity trains and the stench from the smoking carriage being unbelievable as the smoke didn't dissipate.
Even my father a confirmed 40 a day man could not handle the smell. The carriage ceilings and walls must have got stained a lovely shade of nicotine.

I can vividly remember that last time I did a journey in a smokers carriage (only seats left) it was two days into the new millennium and already it seemed like something from another era, although I believe that smoking carriages lasted until about a year or so before the smoking ban came into force. Crazy really.
Good point... Though nearly 2 decades on, TOCs love to remind us that smoking isn't allowed, as if they're going to win a big rosette for being so considerate. :rolleyes:

Was on a late Northern Nottingham to Leeds service last night on one of the PRM-ed 158s (unfortunately with working aircon, as the temperature had dropped a fair bit outside!). The PIS had a large proportion of its scrolling message dedicated to telling me that I couldn't smoke on board, but at this point is that really news to anyone? It's like Tesco having regular announcements over their in-store PA system telling customers that stabbing isn't permitted in their stores! :rolleyes:

In fact as I'm currently trying to quit, it actually caused me to crave a ciggie! <D;)
 
Last edited:

Warwick

Member
Joined
10 Apr 2018
Messages
353
Location
On the naughty step again.
Comfort? I travelled on a modern(ish) EMU from Dorking to Horsham a few weeks ago. Whomsoever designed those seats should be made to sit on them at home. Compared with the diesel train from Reading or the HST from Penzance they were like padded boards.
 

Esker-pades

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2015
Messages
3,766
Location
Beds, Bucks, or somewhere else
Comfort? I travelled on a modern(ish) EMU from Dorking to Horsham a few weeks ago. Whomsoever designed those seats should be made to sit on them at home. Compared with the diesel train from Reading or the HST from Penzance they were like padded boards.

Those "ironing board" seats on newer Electrostars, 700s even 156s are awful. It appears as if a peak was reached in about 2005 and it has since dropped off. Clean? Yes! Comfortable? No.
 

whhistle

On Moderation
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
2,636
Good point... Though nearly 2 decades on, TOCs love to remind us that smoking isn't allowed, as if they're going to win a big rosette for being so considerate.
Agreed with this.
The railway should be focusing on stations now, particularly those that are open air stations, but in a united front, IE: No smoking on any railway station.
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
14,246
Location
St Albans
Good point... Though nearly 2 decades on, TOCs love to remind us that smoking isn't allowed, as if they're going to win a big rosette for being so considerate. :rolleyes:

Was on a late Northern Nottingham to Leeds service last night on one of the PRM-ed 158s (unfortunately with working aircon, as the temperature had dropped a fair bit outside!). The PIS had a large proportion of its scrolling message dedicated to telling me that I couldn't smoke on board, but at this point is that really news to anyone? It's like Tesco having regular announcements over their in-store PA system telling customers that stabbing isn't permitted in their stores! :rolleyes:

In fact as I'm currently trying to quit, it actually caused me to crave a ciggie! <D;)
That's because even after all these years there are still too many who choose to forget the prohibition or pretend that the law doesn't apply to them, and yes, I'm also talking about those who were smokers before the law changed.
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
14,246
Location
St Albans
Comfort? I travelled on a modern(ish) EMU from Dorking to Horsham a few weeks ago. Whomsoever designed those seats should be made to sit on them at home. Compared with the diesel train from Reading or the HST from Penzance they were like padded boards.
The needs of all passengers over journeys from Dorking to Horsham (journey time 21 minutes) compared to the needs of all passengers from (say Reading to Penzance, - at least 5 hours) are very different. Neither would fulfil the needs of the other for all passengers at a cost that passengers and/or the public purse would be prepared to pay.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top