Great Eastern Mainline late 80s/ early 90s

I'm having great fun with "Great Eastern", an add on to the old Microsoft Train Simulator, but having only recently been further east of Stratford out of Liverpool Street in reality (I got all the way to Manor Park) I have little knowledge of the GEML and need some clarification on a few things.

-Firstly, before electrification through to Norwich, where were the 86s stabled? Was it at Colchester, Stratford or were they from the WCML pool?

-Did class 47s ever take complete runs from LST to Norwich in the late 80s early 90s period?

-What traction operated the named boat trains to Harwich?

-Were the class 312s assigned to any particular routes? And did Walton on the Naze ever have a regular service to Liverpool Street?

-What role did the class 305s and 307s have on the GEML?

-Lastly, when were the DBSOs introduced into service?

Sorry for the barrage of questions, help would be appareciated.

If only there was a way to tag forum members in posts, dk1 could probably answer all of these in one foul swoop.

TheEdge said:

If only there was a way to tag forum members in posts, dk1 could probably answer all of these in one foul swoop.

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AJM580 is another one who I think knew the area well.
From what I remember the 86s were based at Crown Point (Norwich) and I certainly had a 47 on a Liverpool St - Norwich service in 87 which must have substituted for an unavailable 86.
The DBSOs must have come south after the Glasgow - Edinburgh push pulls finished because when I went on the Liverpool St - Norwich line in 1987 they hadn't been introduced.
Around that time I remember Stratford were doing work on 86s too, but I can't remember if they were just the ones for Norwich services.

Cowley said:

AJM580 is another one who I think knew the area well.
From what I remember the 86s were based at Crown Point (Norwich) and I certainly had a 47 on a Liverpool St - Norwich service in 87 which must have substituted for an unavailable 86.

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Obviously they were after full electrification but the OP is asking about before the wires ran to Norwich.

Sad Sprinter said:

I'm having great fun with "Great Eastern", an add on to the old Microsoft Train Simulator, but having only recently been further east of Stratford out of Liverpool Street in reality (I got all the way to Manor Park) I have little knowledge of the GEML and need some clarification on a few things.

-Firstly, before electrification through to Norwich, where were the 86s stabled? Was it at Colchester, Stratford or were they from the WCML pool?

-Did class 47s ever take complete runs from LST to Norwich in the late 80s early 90s period?

-What traction operated the named boat trains to Harwich?

-Were the class 312s assigned to any particular routes? And did Walton on the Naze ever have a regular service to Liverpool Street?

-What role did the class 305s and 307s have on the GEML?

-Lastly, when were the DBSOs introduced into service?

Sorry for the barrage of questions, help would be appareciated.

Click to expand...

I'll do my best

86s came from general West Coast pool prior to sectorisation. They usually stabled at Ipswich between turns, and when first allocated to the GEML they were allocated to Ilford, then Norwich Crown Point.

47s did occasionally work after full electrification in 1987.

86s I believe. The Admiral de Ruuyter was one I recall. The European was 47s on the cross country route until 1987, then it ran via the North London Line with 86s. There was also the Rhinelander, which ran from 1987 with 47s

312s worked to Ipswich in the main, also the Harwich Town shuttle may have been. I believe there was a service through from Walton to London.

305s were mainly used on inner suburban workings to places like Chingford and Enfield while 307s worked to Southend.

DBSOs were introduced from the end of 1990/beginning 1991.

As mentioned before dk1 may be able to correct/clarify matters for definite

TheEdge said:

Obviously they were after full electrification but the OP is asking about before the wires ran to Norwich.

Click to expand...

Oops

AJM580 said:

I'll do my best

86s came from general West Coast pool prior to sectorisation. They usually stabled at Ipswich between turns, and when first allocated to the GEML they were allocated to Ilford, then Norwich Crown Point.

47s did occasionally work after full electrification in 1987.

86s I believe. The Admiral de Ruuyter was one I recall. The European was 47s on the cross country route until 1987, then it ran via the North London Line with 86s. There was also the Rhinelander, which ran from 1987 with 47s

312s worked to Ipswich in the main, also the Harwich Town shuttle may have been. I believe there was a service through from Walton to London.

305s were mainly used on inner suburban workings to places like Chingford and Enfield while 307s worked to Southend.

DBSOs were introduced from the end of 1990/beginning 1991.

As mentioned before dk1 may be able to correct/clarify matters for definite

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Oh bless you for having so much faith. Yes, from my recollection everything you say is factually correct ol'beauty.

Thanks for all your help. Looking through the 1988 timetable there are some odd changes from today. For example, the stopping services to Ipswich seemed to have gone to Harwich instead, leaving Manningtree with hardly any services one stop north to Ipswich. Plus the "Up/Down East Anglian" non stop to Ipswich services don't seem to run anymore.

Sad Sprinter said:

Thanks for all your help. Looking through the 1988 timetable there are some odd changes from today. For example, the stopping services to Ipswich seemed to have gone to Harwich instead, leaving Manningtree with hardly any services one stop north to Ipswich. Plus the "Up/Down East Anglian" non stop to Ipswich services don't seem to run anymore.

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The East Anglian still runs, 0740 departure from Norwich and 1700 departure from Liverpool Street.

The 305s were pretty well confined to the suburban lines but I did encounter them on the main line on a handful of occasions.

307s mostly on Southend services

I remember catching 312s regularly but I moved a couple of times while they were in operation. I think that they were usually on fasts at Shenfield to/from main line destinations.

Before electrification beyond Colchester the normal diesel haulage on the main line was the 47.

Walton had a single peak services in 89 which must have included a 309/2 as a buffet was advertised. A regular services was introduced with the class 309 with portion working, trains dividing at Thorpe le Soken. I don't know when they dropped the portion working. The original operation was a 309/1 and 309/2 for clacton and a 309/3 for Walton.

Before electrification beyond Colchester the normal diesel haulage on the main line was the 47.

It was - but you had some odd Peterborough to Harwich workings with 31's. The Stratford "County" fleet was very well kept.

IN my day - early 80's , rotton old Cravens units on the locals - and the penultimate working of the day from London was a 309 to Colchester and a Cravens forward to Ipswich.

Commuting from Manningtree in the 80's before electrification.

06:20 UP - Class 47 + MkIId stock.
07:07 UP - Cravens 2-car, change at Colchester into a 309

16:50 Down - Class 37 + Vac MK11a ( Lowestoft )
17:30 Down - Class 47 + Mk11d stock.
When there was an eth class 31 on the 17:30 it was a slow run home.

At that time the off-peak service at Manningtree was very poor, only 1 train every 2 hours.

Re: 305 and 307 EMUs

As others have mentioned 305s were pretty much confined to the inner suburban routes to Chingford and Enfield Town, don't remember seeing them outside of that though they may have ventured further up the Lea Valley on occasions.

307s were built for the Southend Victoria electrification in 1956/7 and were originally 1500V DC, converted to 25kV AC early 60s. As AC units they were originally kept to the Southend Vic and Bishops Stortford/Hertford East routes which they operated together with the 308s and some 302s which weren't all allocated the LT&S.

After refurbishment in the late 80s and early 90s allocations got much more mixed up with several 307s appearing on the LT&S in addition to their original stamping ground. Not sure if they ever operated on the Clacton/Walton branch, I think that, apart from the 309s, local services were 302/308s though I could be wrong.

During the 1990s we always hired the RES 86 when short of locos. When this had been used or not available we resorted to the 47. This was diagrammed to work the 08:05 up from Norwich. Can't recall what it did then.

Walton-on-the-Naze had a regular hourly service (more in the peaks) to Liverpool Street until May 1982, generally joining/splitting with a Clacton portion at Thorpe-le-Soken. I believe portion working on the line from Colchester commenced with the opening of the Thorpe-le-Soken to Clacton line in 1882 (the line to Walton opened in 1867). When regular hourly services to Liverpool Street commenced I don't know, but certainly existed since the electric service. Prior to this, portion working operated with loco hauled stock - in the 1950s some Walton portions even included a restaurant car. The end of through services in 1982 resulted in a significant loss in passenger numbers from the Walton-line, particularly in the peak-hour and of day trippers, due to problems with connections at Thorpe-le-Soken. The RCTS "Locomotives of the LNER" describes the morning commuter service from Clacton & Walton arriving at Liverpool Street double-headed by two Claud Hamilton 4-4-0s, these being the heaviest locomotives that were permitted on the line down from Colchester until 1931; subsequent upgrades permtted the B12s to operate.

Sad Sprinter said:

I'm having great fun with "Great Eastern", an add on to the old Microsoft Train Simulator, but having only recently been further east of Stratford out of Liverpool Street in reality (I got all the way to Manor Park) I have little knowledge of the GEML and need some clarification on a few things.

-Firstly, before electrification through to Norwich, where were the 86s stabled? Was it at Colchester, Stratford or were they from the WCML pool?

-Did class 47s ever take complete runs from LST to Norwich in the late 80s early 90s period?

-What traction operated the named boat trains to Harwich?

-Were the class 312s assigned to any particular routes? And did Walton on the Naze ever have a regular service to Liverpool Street?

-What role did the class 305s and 307s have on the GEML?

-Lastly, when were the DBSOs introduced into service?

Sorry for the barrage of questions, help would be appareciated.

Click to expand...

1) Think it might have been Stratford but ICBW. Happy to be corrected on that. 86s also hauled loco-hauled trains through the Cambridge when Bishops-Stortford to Cambridge was wired

2) Yes, 47s were standard fare on the Norwich expresses prior to electrification

3) 47s were first preference though 37s weren't unknown and were widely used in the 1970s. Returning from a weekend in Amsterdam around 1983 with some friends, we had a 31 on the morning boat train (Hook Continental) from Harwich to Liv St. God, was that journey slow.

4) Not sure about 312s but Walton had a through service to London in the days of the 309s when units from Clacton and Walton would combine at Thorpe-le-Soken (and vice versa)

5) 305s were nominally built for the Chingford, Enfield Town and Hertford East services (inner suburban) on the West Anglian lines, but ended up roaming a bit further afield in later years. 307s were originally built for the Southend Vic line as 1500V DC units but were converted to 6.25/25kV units in the early 60s. In addition to the Southend Vic branch, they also then ran on the GE mainline, Clacton branch (I think, though I can only remember 302s and 309s on this before the 312s took over), Bishops Stortford and Hertford East routes as well as some of the refurbished ones getting transferred to the LT&S line. On the GE they seemed to be used pretty interchangeably with the 302s and 308s. Someone with a better memory may be able to add to this or put me right where I've suffered from brain fade.

6) Not sure about DBSOs but I thought they were transferred from Scotland (originally used on the E&G expresses) about the time the Norwich trains went electric.

tonyb said:

Walton-on-the-Naze had a regular hourly service (more in the peaks) to Liverpool Street until May 1982, generally joining/splitting with a Clacton portion at Thorpe-le-Soken. ...When regular hourly services to Liverpool Street commenced I don't know, but certainly existed since the electric service. Prior to this, portion working operated with loco hauled stock - in the 1950s some Walton portions even included a restaurant car.

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Slightly OT to the original post but:
The regular interval service on the Clacton line actually predated electrification, being a follow-on from the highly successful Norwich timetable of the early 50s - it was even called the Clacton Interval Service (though it wasn't hourly all year)!

DidcotDickie said:

5) 305s were nominally built for the Chingford, Enfield Town and Hertford East services (inner suburban) on the West Anglian lines, but ended up roaming a bit further afield in later years.

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Curiously, the first run I ever had down the GEML was in the late 1970s on a Southend service in a 305, the "Chingford/Enfield" slam door units, and thus I always thought they were well mixed. It was a peak service mu'd with other stock which had first class accommodation.

On electrification both Enfield and (particularly) Chingford had extremely frequent services, including peak hour limited stop 'expresses'. After 1968 the new Victoria Line scooped a lot of this traffic, and there would have been quite a number of 305s to redeploy elsewhere as outer suburban traffic progressively grew.

It was unusual to see a 305 on the GEML when I used it between the early 60s and late 80s but they did turn up from time to time.

The October 1989 timetable gives one morning up and one evening down through train between Walton and Liverpool Street. Only the down train was advertised with a buffet.

The basic Southend line service was 8 cars, I think a pairing of a 307 and a 308, until the 321s replaced them.

When I was learning Colchester PSB late 89, the DBSO's were on test and Driver training to / from Colchester, and the odd trip to London, it was DBSO leading and 86 on the C/E, this was reversed before introduction as the 86's tended to get stuck in a neutral section on the approach to Liverpool Street

Anyone recall the 309's on the relief trains Norwich - London on Summer Saturdays ?

309s to Norwich on Summer Saturdays. Sure do, had a few good runs on those. And yes the signalling around Bow Jn neutral section meant the preference was loco London End. The 86s were allocated to Ilford for a while.

From memory I thought 307s were restricted to Liverpool St to Colchester/Southend and nowhere else. Age may be playing tricks though.

1985 to 1987 was fun, with loco changes at Ipswich on the London - Norwich service all day. It would be remarkable to even consider it today.