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Transgender sporting question

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EM2

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If I told you that I believed I am actually a woman, that wouldn’t change the reality that I am male. Most importantly it wouldn’t change yourperception that I am a man.
My perception isn't really relevant. If it's what you believe, that is your identity.
As I said earlier identity contains a number of subjective and objective elements, including gender, biological sex and, crucially, how we are perceived by others.
Except for the last clause, I agree. How I perceive someone is part of how I perceive their identity. It may match their self identity, it may not.
Someone's identity is for them to define.
 
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Bromley boy

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As far as I am aware, it is not a common view that gender dysphoria develops during adult life - rather that the causes occur during the development of the brain, and only become apparent to the individual later on in life.

And, just out of interest, these developmental problems are not limited to humans. It's even possible to cause animals to change their gender behaviour by exposing eggs to hormones.
Gurney, M. E., & Konishi, M. (1980). Hormone-induced sexual differentiation of brain and behavior in zebra finches. Science, 208 , 1380–1383.

It appears that it is not known at exactly what point the disorder develops.

Just to repeat it - there is not always a single 'biological sex'. The body and brain develop according to various hormonal and genetic signals. In some cases these can be mixed and different parts of the body - including the brain - can develop differently. It is possible, for example, to be genetically female but develop a penis, just as it is possible to be genetically female but develop a 'male' brain etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome

Indeed, it is a complex issue, particular with regards to inter sex people, and indeed animals.

However we are discussing trans people who are not intersex, and are biologically/genetically male/female (but identity with a gender which is not aligned to that biology).
 

Bromley boy

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I am heterosexual, end of.

Well that is a private matter for you.

However keep in mind that word has an objective meaning. If you are a man who is sexually attracted to other men/males you do not fall within that meaning.
 

tony_mac

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However we are discussing trans people who are not intersex, and are biologically/genetically male/female (but identity with a gender which is not aligned to that biology).
There is good evidence that this misalignment IS caused by biological differences during brain development.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/
What causes gender dysphoria?
Gender development is complex and there are many possible variations that cause a mismatch between a person’s biological sex and their gender identity, making the exact cause of gender dysphoria unclear.

Occasionally, the hormones that trigger the development of biological sex may not work properly on the brain, reproductive organs and genitals, causing differences between them. This may be caused by:

  • additional hormones in the mother’s system – possibly as a result of taking medication
  • the foetus’ insensitivity to the hormones, known as androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS) – when this happens, gender dysphoria may be caused by hormones not working properly in the womb
Gender dysphoria may also be the result of other rare conditions, such as:

  • congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH) – where a high level of male hormones are produced in a female foetus. This causes the genitals to become more male in appearance and, in some cases, the baby may be thought to be biologically male when she is born.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ocial&utm_source=Twitter#link_time=1526970047
Analysis of around 160 participants showed that biological males with gender dysphoria - the experience of discomfort or distress due to their biological sex - had a brain structure and neurological patterns similar to biological females, and vice versa.
The analysis revealed that the distinct neurological differences are detectable during childhood.
 
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AlterEgo

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Paris Lees is not a man. Munroe Bergdorf is not a man. Caitlyn Jenner is not a man. Alexis Arquette is not a man. Laverne Cox is not a man. They were all born male, but they are not men.
Can you categorically state that if you saw any of these women in the street, in a store, in a pub or club, that you would know that they were trans?
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=trans+women&atb=v111-6_g&iax=images&ia=images

1 and 3 look like trans women to me. 2 and 4 “pass” well.
 

AlterEgo

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My perception isn't really relevant. If it's what you believe, that is your identity.

Someone's identity is for them to define.

I don’t agree that someone’s identity is *always* for them to define. I could claim to be that famous Frenchie, Napoleon but that would not make me him. I could claim I identify as a police officer but there are clear issues with that too.

How other people perceive you is absolutely important - that’s part of the reason why trans people undergo surgery, to become accepted by others. To dismiss the importance of acceptance by others is folly. The world doesn’t revolve around self-perception, it works by consensus.
 

AlterEgo

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Well that is a private matter for you.

However keep in mind that word has an objective meaning. If you are a man who is sexually attracted to other men/males you do not fall within that meaning.

Reminds me of a rare bit of excellent television I’ve watched lately.

Jeremy Thorpe identified as a straight man and presented as a straight man, but it didn’t mean that was actually what he was.

We all would think of him as gay or bisexual, and that’s what matters. (There is no shame in that, these days - though it was appallingly career-ending back then...tolerance and respect yes, but let’s not bull**** each other about the truth)
 

507021

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Well that is a private matter for you.

However keep in mind that word has an objective meaning. If you are a man who is sexually attracted to other men/males you do not fall within that meaning.

It is, and I would prefer you didn't question my sexuality.
 

EM2

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I don’t agree that someone’s identity is *always* for them to define. I could claim to be that famous Frenchie, Napoleon but that would not make me him. I could claim I identify as a police officer but there are clear issues with that too.
Self identity is central to answering the question 'who am I?'. Here on RUK, you identify as AlterEgo and I identify as EM2. We both know that neither of us is using our 'true' identity, but it does relate to who we are, for example are we people who maybe are not entirely comfortable revealing everything themselves on line? If you wish to identify as Napoleon, who am I to tell you different? I might not believe it to be true, but if that's what makes you you, then it's no business of mine to say otherwise.
How other people perceive you is absolutely important - that’s part of the reason why trans people undergo surgery, to become accepted by others. To dismiss the importance of acceptance by others is folly. The world doesn’t revolve around self-perception, it works by consensus.
Personally, I think that once you are at peace with yourself, you worry a lot less about being accepted by others. Many trans people are not at peace with themselves until they appear as they want to appear.
 

Bromley boy

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It is, and I would prefer you didn't question my sexuality.

I have not questioned anything. After all, I don’t know you from Adam.

What I do know is that someone who is sexually attracted to members of the same sex is not heterosexual, within the generally understood meaning and dictionary definition of the word.

I also know that, as a heterosexual man myself, I would not be attracted to someone I knew was a trans woman, who is biologically the same sex as I am, no matter how feminine she looked.

With respect why did you disclose your own dating preferences on a public discussion forum if you are uncomfortable discussing the subject?
 

Bromley boy

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If you wish to identify as Napoleon, who am I to tell you different? I might not believe it to be true, but if that's what makes you you, then it's no business of mine to say otherwise.

But isn’t this exactly the point.

Our “true” identity has both subjective and objective components. Somebody who identifies as napoleon is not Napoleon. Someone who identifies with being a policeman (and isn’t) would be guilty of breaking the law if they passed themselves off as such. Why? Because it wouldn’t, in fact, be the truth.

Similarly, you may subjectively feel younger than your actual age, but your chronological age is still a matter of objective fact. Even if you choose to deny it or lie about it to others.

In just the same way a person who suffers from gender dysphoria, and is biologically male, is not a woman in the same way as someone who is biologically female, regardless of how many operations or how much surgery they have. To suggest they are is simply an untruth.
 

Bromley boy

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Reminds me of a rare bit of excellent television I’ve watched lately.

Jeremy Thorpe identified as a straight man and presented as a straight man, but it didn’t mean that was actually what he was.

We all would think of him as gay or bisexual, and that’s what matters. (There is no shame in that, these days - though it was appallingly career-ending back then...tolerance and respect yes, but let’s not bull**** each other about the truth)

That’s a very good example to use.

What worries me is that people seem increasingly less concerned about the truth, to the point where they will deny it in order to preserve the feelings of others.

I will fully respect trans people wishing to live as the gender they wish. I will not be party to a charade which denies the objective truth of their existence, which is why I will call them a female, but will never think of them as female in the same way as a cis woman is female.

On a related note if I started dating a woman who, after a few dates, told me she had been born a man, I would feel lied to and deceived.
 
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Up_Tilt_390

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On a related note if I started dating a woman who, after a few dates, told me she had been born a man, I would feel lied to and deceived.

I imagine you'd then start having an identity crisis because of how you went out with a woman who turned out to biologically be male. I imagine you'd be questioning your sexuality more than anything. :p
 

EM2

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In just the same way a person who suffers from gender dysphoria, and is biologically male, is not a woman in the same way as someone who is biologically female, regardless of how many operations or how much surgery they have. To suggest they are is simply an untruth.
All of us, somewhere, have untruths as part of our identities. We all tell little fibs about ourselves.
My Mum would say she was 28, when she was 33 (and got away with it more than when she was 28 :D).
'I was only doing 35, officer...'.
'Oh yes doc, I always have my five-a-day'.
 

Bromley boy

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There is good evidence that this misalignment IS caused by biological differences during brain development.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ocial&utm_source=Twitter#link_time=1526970047

That may well be true but we should be careful to define our heads of discussion. A trans individual who suffers from gender dysphoria, by definition, identifies with a gender which differs from their biological sex.

I agree that what constitutes biological sex is a complex issue in its own right.
 

Bromley boy

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All of us, somewhere, have untruths as part of our identities. We all tell little fibs about ourselves.
My Mum would say she was 28, when she was 33 (and got away with it more than when she was 28 :D).
'I was only doing 35, officer...'.
'Oh yes doc, I always have my five-a-day'.

Yes, indeed, but the crucial point is that untruths, however trivial or significant, are still not part of our objectively true identities.

Someone’s biological sex is a fundamental part of their identity, and I would say that they shouldn’t have the right to deny that in its entirety.

Surely you would agree that it would be quite wrong for a trans person* to deceive a partner into believing that they were born a different sex than they actually were?

*Edited as per subsequent discussion.
 
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Bromley boy

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I imagine you'd then start having an identity crisis because of how you went out with a woman who turned out to biologically be male. I imagine you'd be questioning your sexuality more than anything. :p

Some trans women can look very convincing indeed, especially in Thailand (where both men and women are naturally quite small and more feminine looking than westerners).

If I found myself wanting to date a trans woman with male sex organs, I would start questioning my sexuality!
 

EM2

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Surely you would agree that it would be quite wrong for a trans woman to deceive a partner into believing that they were born a different sex than they actually were?
Firstly, why only trans women?
But personally, no. I'd like to think that if I found a person attractive, enjoyed their company, had shared interests with them, had a good time with them, even enjoyed intercourse with them, what they used to be wouldn't really enter into it.
I might have issues if they didn't tell me that they were a Spurs or a Chelsea fan though...
 

507021

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I have not questioned anything. After all, I don’t know you from Adam.

What I do know is that someone who is sexually attracted to members of the same sex is not heterosexual, within the generally understood meaning and dictionary definition of the word.

I also know that, as a heterosexual man myself, I would not be attracted to someone I knew was a trans woman, who is biologically the same sex as I am, no matter how feminine she looked.

With respect why did you disclose your own dating preferences on a public discussion forum if you are uncomfortable discussing the subject?

You have stated I cannot be heterosexual when I have told you I am.

I answered a polite question from another forum member, and I was happy to do so, but what I am not happy with is you trying to tell me what my sexuality is based on my response to that question.
 

Up_Tilt_390

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Some trans women can look very convincing indeed, especially in Thailand (where both men and women are naturally quite small and more feminine looking than westerners).

If I found myself wanting to date a trans woman with male sex organs, I would start questioning my sexuality!

Hopefully you won't have to deal with such identity crisis in your lifetime. I mean I imagine those confused about gender go through one as well. I actually remember a story about a transgender couple falling in love with each other, and I honestly found it kind of strange. Life is funny sometimes I must say, but not in a bad sort...
 

Bromley boy

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Firstly, why only trans

I quite agree, it applies equally both ways (I should have said “trans individual”or similar and will amend my post).

But personally, no. I'd like to think that if I found a person attractive, enjoyed their company, had shared interests with them, had a good time with them, even enjoyed intercourse with them, what they used to be wouldn't really enter into it.
I might have issues if they didn't tell me that they were a Spurs or a Chelsea fan though...

I would be very, very careful indeed about going down that path.

Just what facts about their true identify should a sexual partner be entitled to keep from you? HIV status? Criminal convictions? Severe mental health issues?

The below shows where we can end up if we go down that road:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ick-friend-sex-prosthetic-penis-a7814771.html

A woman has been convicted of impersonating a man over two years in an “astonishing deception” to trick her female friend into sex.

Gayle Newland created a “disturbingly complex” online persona to achieve her own “bizarre sexual satisfaction”, Manchester Crown Court heard.

A retrial jury found the 27 year old guilty of committing sexual assault by using a prosthetic penis without her victim’s consent. She will be sentenced on 20 July.
 

EM2

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I would be very, very careful indeed about going down that path.

Just what facts about their true identify should a sexual partner be entitled to keep from you? HIV status? Criminal convictions? Severe mental health issues?

The below shows where we can end up if we go down that road:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ick-friend-sex-prosthetic-penis-a7814771.html
There's all sorts of strange people in the world. All you can do is use your own intuition and judge whether the situation is one that you want to be in.
 

Bromley boy

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You have stated I cannot be heterosexual when I have told you I am.

I answered a polite question from another forum member, and I was happy to do so, but what I am not happy with is you trying to tell me what my sexuality is based on my response to that question.

To be clear I have no wish to make this debate personal and I certainly do not wish to cause you any offence.

If I have done so then I apologise.
 

Bromley boy

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There's all sorts of strange people in the world. All you can do is use your own intuition and judge whether the situation is one that you want to be in.

Indeed but some facts are unknowable unless disclosed, especially in the early stages of knowing someone.

There is an overwhelming moral (and in some cases legal) imperative to make partners aware of key aspects of your identity.

I would suggest biological sex is a key aspect of that identity, in addition to assumed gender (and football affiliation, status as a railway crank etc. of course :D).
 

507021

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To be clear I have no wish to make this debate personal and I certainly do not wish to cause you any offence.

If I have done so then I apologise.

To be honest, you did, however I appreciate and accept your apology.
 

Bromley boy

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@EM2. Thanks again for the detailed response. This is certainly an interesting discussion which has prompted me to carefully consider my own views on trans athletes (which I admit are not well developed since, as neither a trans individual nor a sports fan, I have no particular “skin in the game!”).

I've never denied that.

Ok I think this an important point though.

What are the views of prominent cis female athletes on trans athletes competing alongside them?

No it doesn't. It states:
'Every day athletes are beaten by others with identifiable difference. And yet those differences are allowed.

It could be physical difference like longer limbs in sports like basketball or swimming; it could be better training facilities enjoyed by developed nations over developing nations; it could be superior mental strength over those who struggle with big occasions.'
Note the use of 'athletes'. Natural females are not mentioned at all in that passage.

In the context of the article I would suggest this is discussing “differences” of trans athletes (biologically male, surgery + hormones), in the same breath as naturally occurring differences between cis athletes.

Correct, it does. It then states straight afterwards: 'but in general that's the only ongoing effect … [due to treatment] their muscle mass and strength is reduced.' and later states (from the same scientist): 'but the strength and stamina will have altered due to her hormonal treatments' and also:
'Specifically with regard to Hannah, she's big … but one of the things is that she has a large skeletal system which hasn't reduced in size, but her muscles have substantially reduced in size and strength.'

'So she now has a female-size engine trying to move this big skeletal frame around and that is going to cause her some substantial disadvantages.'

Ok, I will concede that if it can be objectively proved, to the satisfaction of the relevant sporting authority, that trans athletes are not at any innate advantage due to their biological sex, then I agree, there should be no objection in principle to them competing alongside CIS athletes of their assumed gender.

I would caveat that by saying that there doesn’t seem to be a great deal of evidence either way and, unless and until that can be established, I would still advocate for an entirely separate category for trans athletes.

It seems this discussion has also highlighted a definite innate advantage for those intersex athletes who identify as female (reference our discussion of the intersex SA athlete above) so there seems to be an even stronger case for a seperate category for these athletes.

'Moonlights as'? She is a scientist, and an athlete, and a trans woman, so is uniquely placed to investigate findings in this area. Are you saying that she's lying when she states: "When I started to transition in 2004 … within nine months I had started running 12 per cent slower than I had been before and men run 10-12 per cent faster than women — and so in nine months, I had lost all of my male advantage,"?

I’m not saying she’s lying per se, but the trans lobby has become excessively politicised and someone who is both trans and an athlete, who is advocating for major change, may have a conflict of interests.
 
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Bromley boy

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To be honest, you did, however I appreciate and accept your apology.

No worries at all.

I participate in these forums because I enjoy debating concepts and ideas in order to inform and develop my own opinions. That is always intended to be a general, abstract discussion.

I have no interest in exploring or judging (let alone defining) other posters’ own personal sexual preferences, just as I’m sure you all have zero interest in mine!

The intention of my previous postings was to discuss the meaning of words, in the abstract, rather than to pass any comment on your personal position.

Hopefully that clarifies where I was coming from.
 
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507021

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No worries at all.

I participate in these forums because I enjoy debating concepts and ideas in order to inform and develop my own opinions. That is always intended to be a general, abstract discussion.

I have no interest in exploring or judging (let alone defining) other posters’ own personal sexual preferences, just as I’m sure you all have zero interest in mine!

The intention of my previous postings was to discuss the meaning of words, in the abstract, rather than to pass any comment on your personal position.

Hopefully that clarifies where I was coming from.

Yeah, I totally understand. :)
 
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Are you aware of any new born babies diagnosed with the condition? No? Me neither.

Therefore, I would suggest it is a condition that develops subsequently to birth.

It is a delusional condition, whereby a person of a particular sex (and commensurate gender) identifies with the opposite gender and wishes to live as such.

In some cases they have their physical sexual characteristics altered, in order to assist their identification with the opposite sex/gender.

I have no problem, in principle, with people suffering from said disorder living according to thier chosen gender, should they wish to do so, in order to satisfy their delusion.

I do have an issue with people retrospectively changing their birth certificates to alter their birth sex, which is a matter of biological and historical fact.

Therefore, in answer to the original question, I do have a problem with trans gender athletes competing with athletes of the opposite biological sex. Simply because biological sex lends an advantage to sporting performance (as men tend to be bigger and stronger than women)...

You are unable to substantiate the accusation that gender Dysphoria develops subsequently to birth, given the way in which hormonal and other factors impact on the the development both physically and mentally of individuals, you are taking a brave step, far greater than any reliable source of Information within the clinical sphere.

Gender Dysphoria is NOT a Delusional condition, your assertion to that end as both trans phobic and ableist.

Your assertions with regard to performance are also not born out by objective clinical research as published following peer review.
 
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No worries at all.

I participate in these forums because I enjoy debating concepts and ideas in order to inform and develop my own opinions. That is always intended to be a general, abstract discussion.

I have no interest in exploring or judging (let alone defining) other posters’ own personal sexual preferences, just as I’m sure you all have zero interest in mine!

The intention of my previous postings was to discuss the meaning of words, in the abstract, rather than to pass any comment on your personal position.

Hopefully that clarifies where I was coming from.

Gender Identity is not about Sexuality or ' sexual preference'
 
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