Summons to court

Hannah Reed · 22 Jul 2018

Hi All
I've recently received pictures of letters that have been sent to an old address regarding an incident last year.
I had purchased a family and friends railcard to travel from Barnstaple to Brighton to visit my brother for the weekend with my 2 year old daughter.
I'd discussed prices, routes, times etc many times with someone over the phone. At no point did they mention not being able to use the card I was about to purchase to travel to the following day.
I bought my card and then called back to book to the ticket. That guy couldn't actually book tickets so got transferred to someone else. Told him the story so far, again, no mention of not being able to travel the next day without the card being digital. The price was totally different so I called the first guy back, got the exact times and stations, Rand back to book the ticket. Got a different price again but even better so no complaints there. Was a difference of about £50 so I feel sorry for anyone wouldn't have known to do that. I wouldnt!
The next day, I picked up the tickets form the station, with no travel card. The lady in the ticket office didn't say anything.
Got asked to show my tickets on the way to Exeter at David's. I did. And then found out proof of purchase was not sufficient. Ticket collector suggest I get the app and get the eCard .I tried... You can't have both and I couldn't cancel my request to get the plastic one.
At Exeter was met by two guards. Very helpful and understanding. They exchanged my tickets for zero fare tickets so I could continue my journey and told me to wait for a letter and explain everything and it would all be fine. Not that I was going to get a big fine!!!
A letter came a while later, a settlement offer of £239.50. Apparently equal to the amount of the original fare. The original fare cost about £107from memory. Plus I had bought tickets and a rail card.
I sent an email to explain what had happened and a copy of my rail card. I later received an email saying it was the wrong department and I had to send a letter. Which I did. But wasn't received.
All the notifications following weren't forwarded until about a week ago. The fine had gone up to £639 and I was due in court on July 3rd.
I live in Australia! The email and letter that I sent clearly stated that I would be returning to Australia on the 28th of December. Of course...no one got the memo.
I've tried calling prosecutions a fewfew ti now but can never get through.
I believe I need to email them now.
Does anyone have any recommendations as to how to go about this? I don't have the money to pay the fine, or fly back to go to court. I couldn't afford to pay the full fare again after buying a card and tickets the day before. And I would have turned around and gone home and waited for the car to be fixed if the guard had told me this was coming instead of making out there was nothing to worry about!
Many thanks

RailUK Forums

ForTheLoveOf · 22 Jul 2018

Hannah Reed said:
Hi All
I've recently received pictures of letters that have been sent to an old address regarding an incident last year.
I had purchased a family and friends railcard to travel from Barnstaple to Brighton to visit my brother for the weekend with my 2 year old daughter.
I'd discussed prices, routes, times etc many times with someone over the phone. At no point did they mention not being able to use the card I was about to purchase to travel to the following day.
I bought my card and then called back to book to the ticket. That guy couldn't actually book tickets so got transferred to someone else. Told him the story so far, again, no mention of not being able to travel the next day without the card being digital. The price was totally different so I called the first guy back, got the exact times and stations, Rand back to book the ticket. Got a different price again but even better so no complaints there. Was a difference of about £50 so I feel sorry for anyone wouldn't have known to do that. I wouldnt!
The next day, I picked up the tickets form the station, with no travel card. The lady in the ticket office didn't say anything.
Got asked to show my tickets on the way to Exeter at David's. I did. And then found out proof of purchase was not sufficient. Ticket collector suggest I get the app and get the eCard .I tried... You can't have both and I couldn't cancel my request to get the plastic one.
At Exeter was met by two guards. Very helpful and understanding. They exchanged my tickets for zero fare tickets so I could continue my journey and told me to wait for a letter and explain everything and it would all be fine. Not that I was going to get a big fine!!!
A letter came a while later, a settlement offer of £239.50. Apparently equal to the amount of the original fare. The original fare cost about £107from memory. Plus I had bought tickets and a rail card.
I sent an email to explain what had happened and a copy of my rail card. I later received an email saying it was the wrong department and I had to send a letter. Which I did. But wasn't received.
All the notifications following weren't forwarded until about a week ago. The fine had gone up to £639 and I was due in court on July 3rd.
I live in Australia! The email and letter that I sent clearly stated that I would be returning to Australia on the 28th of December. Of course...no one got the memo.
I've tried calling prosecutions a fewfew ti now but can never get through.
I believe I need to email them now.
Does anyone have any recommendations as to how to go about this? I don't have the money to pay the fine, or fly back to go to court. I couldn't afford to pay the full fare again after buying a card and tickets the day before. And I would have turned around and gone home and waited for the car to be fixed if the guard had told me this was coming instead of making out there was nothing to worry about!
Many thanks

So, to summarise:

You bought a Railcard over the internet. This was a plastic Railcard and was sent out to you by post - but by the time you were travelling it had not yet arrived.

You picked up the Railcard-discounted tickets which you had bought over the phone at the station where you started your journey.

You then travelled to Barnstaple, with the tickets but without the Railcard.

On the way to Exeter you were asked for your Railcard, but could not produce it as you did not yet have it.

At Exeter your tickets and details were taken, and you received a new zero-fare ticket to complete your journey.

You received a letter offering an out-of-Court settlement for £239.50. You emailed to explain the situation, however the email did not reach the correct department.

You wrote a letter to the correct department, but it was not received.

You received a letter a week ago which told you that you were prosecuted and found guilty in your absence, and that you now have a fine plus costs of £639 to pay.

If the above summary accurately describes the situation then you have a few options, really:

Make a Statutory Declaration, declaring that you did not receive the summons to attend Court and would therefore like to be retried. You may be able to arrange this through an international solicitors' office in Australia, otherwise you would need to travel to the UK.
Pay the fine and costs.

Making a Statutory Declaration is beneficial insofaras it will mean that, if you are indeed convicted, the fine will be adjusted to a multiple of your income rather than of an average/assumed income. There is also a slim possibility that, depending on the process used, you may still be able to negotiate an out-of-Court settlement with the train company. However, I see no defence to a prosecution under Railway Byelaw 18 - which creates a strict liability offence of boarding a train without a valid ticket. As you did not have the Railcard required to make your ticket valid, you committed this offence.

najaB · 22 Jul 2018

Hannah Reed said:
And I would have turned around and gone home and waited for the car to be fixed if the guard had told me this was coming instead of making out there was nothing to worry about!

To be fair to the guards, there really shouldn't have been a problem since they issued you zero-fare excesses - which constitutes an authority to travel. Are you sure they were zero-fare tickets and not an unpaid fare notice?

Hannah Reed said:
All the notifications following weren't forwarded until about a week ago. The fine had gone up to £639 and I was due in court on July 3rd.

If you truly were unaware of the court proceedings then it should be possible to make a statutory declaration to that effect (which puts the guilty verdict aside). The complication is that you are in Australia and it needs to be filed with the Magistrate's Court in which the case was heard.

Hannah Reed said:
Does anyone have any recommendations as to how to go about this?

One way to do this would to get a notary public in Aus to sign your declaration and get friends/family in the UK to deliver it to the court.

You need to do this quickly though - you have 21 days from the time you become aware of the prosecution, time is ticking!

RPI · 22 Jul 2018

If this was GWR then you would have had the opportunity to have produced your railcard within 21 days, this would have been detailed in the first letter received, this letter would also have had the prosecution's direct email address in which to send evidence of your railcard along with a direct telephone number for the prosecution's department. Sounds like this was dealt with as a non-interview MG11 which is normal for a railcard left at home as a UFN can't be issued for travel on another TOC and it's likely that Barnstaple to Brighton would have involved travel on a different TOC.
This has obviously gone to court and you had been found guilty in absence so the advice given by the others is spot on.
I believe that if the fines go unpaid it could lead to issues if you attempt to enter the UK, particularly if this was a Regulation of Railways Act 1889 conviction which it most likely was. Being in Australia makes it more complicated (I know I'm stating the obvious there) so it may pay you to get some legal advice.

Whopper · 22 Jul 2018

I know it's a moot point at this stage however, when your railcard did arrive was the start date before you made your journey?

cuccir · 23 Jul 2018

RPI said:
particularly if this was a Regulation of Railways Act 1889 conviction

This is a useful point - Hannah, were you convicted under the 'Regulation of the Railways Act 1889' or the 'Railway Byelaws'?

RPI said:
so it may pay you to get some legal advice

Although on a practical purpose given that the fine is £639, the cost of any legal advice may not be much less than the cost of paying the fine.

If it's possible to do so, the advantage of a statutory declaration would be that you'd be able to reset the process - this would create time for dialogue with GWR which might in this instance be best done over the phone, given the time that letters can take to travel between the UK/Australia. Normally forgotten railcards - which this sort of is - are not punished this harshly and there may be scope to negotiate some sort of settlement, even if it is just a return to the £239 - which is much less than £639! It strikes me that the worst that would happen in the case of a statutory declaration is that you're convicted and fined again, holding within it the possibility of reaching a settlement with GWR that's much lower - so really the question to consider is what the cost of the process would be in terms of money, travel, time and communication for you.

Haywain · 23 Jul 2018

If time is wanted to negotiate with GWR for an out of court settlement, it is essential that a statutory declaration is made through a solicitor in the UK rather than directly with the court (a recent case on here saw a case that was reset by SD directly with the court decided without any involvement from the TOC). It may then be appropriate to request the solicitor to negotiate with the TOC but this will inevitably increase costs.

SussexMan · 23 Jul 2018

We don't know if the Railcard was bought over the phone or the internet but having just purchased a F & F Railcard online there are at least two very clear warnings during the purchase process that you can't use it until you have got it and the confirmation email repeats this message and the email confirming dispatch does the same.

This email is confirmation of your Railcard purchase only, it cannot be used as a Railcard or to buy discounted tickets. Please ensure you carry your Railcard with you when travelling with Railcard discounted tickets.

Thank you for purchasing a Family & Friends Railcard. We are pleased to advise that your Railcard has been dispatched by Royal Mail First Class Post. Please remember that you will need your Railcard with you in order to travel with discounted tickets. Happy travelling!

The Railcard Team

However, from the OP's initial post it isn't clear what actually happened.

Hannah Reed said:
I'd discussed prices, routes, times etc many times with someone over the phone. At no point did they mention not being able to use the card I was about to purchase to travel to the following day.

If they had said "I'm about to buy a railcard..." then how was the person not to know they didn't mean they were about to go to the station and buy a railcard. I assume it isn't possible to buy a railcard over the phone and with the same person book tickets. Come to think if it, can you buy tickets over the phone and collect them at a station? Were the tickets actually bought online?

Puffing Devil · 23 Jul 2018

All the discussion about the tickets and the railcard are of little immediate help.

What needs to be considered first is that you have been convicted in your absence in a UK court and that needs to be dealt with if you plan on coming back to the UK.

As many have suggested the first step is to make a statutory declaration, which is a formal statement to say that you were not aware of the proceedings and that the prosecution needs to be reset to the summons stage.

You can make the declaration at UK Consolates and Embassies, though I don't know what they would now charge - you could try phoning your closest to find out. If this is not an option enforcement will continue, until the bailiffs discover you are in Australia and that the amount cannot be collected. Expect the amount owing to rise during this process - though a letter to the courts may shortcut the process.

The debt will still be there when you return to the UK and you may be traced and possibly brought to the court to make payment.

However - first step - if you can, make the declaration at the Consulate and fax a copy to the court. If that can't be done, it may be plan B.

Fare-Cop · 26 Jul 2018

SussexMan said:
We don't know if the Railcard was bought over the phone or the internet but having just purchased a F & F Railcard online there are at least two very clear warnings during the purchase process that you can't use it until you have got it and the confirmation email repeats this message and the email confirming dispatch does the same.

However, from the OP's initial post it isn't clear what actually happened.

If they had said "I'm about to buy a railcard..." then how was the person not to know they didn't mean they were about to go to the station and buy a railcard. I assume it isn't possible to buy a railcard over the phone and with the same person book tickets. Come to think if it, can you buy tickets over the phone and collect them at a station? Were the tickets actually bought online?

These warnings are standard practice for the purchase of all Railcards ordered online. Observance of this is essential because the rules relating to use of discounted tickets make perfectly clear that unless the actual Railcard is shown with that discounted ticket at the time of travel, the traveller does not hold a VALID ticket.

Gareth Marston · 26 Jul 2018

Fare-Cop said:
These warnings are standard practice for the purchase of all Railcards ordered online. Observance of this is essential because the rules relating to use of discounted tickets make perfectly clear that unless the actual Railcard is shown with that discounted ticket at the time of travel, the traveller does not hold a VALID ticket.

Had a lady try buy tickets using her confirmation of order E mail for her F & F this morning - I pointed out the warning and made her read it as she had printed off her e mail. Tickets cost her #40 more than she was expecting and she was even less impressed when i told her she could have walked in and spent 30 seconds filling in the form and had the railcard straight away.....

If we do anything online (not just rail related) myself other half and daughters (eldest is a Customer Service Manager for a large retail organization) always really make sure about what were signing up to before going ahead.

In many ways the online world has made things more complicated and full of pitfalls and the people who use it who don't think and want speed and convenience end up losing out.

nickswift99 · 26 Jul 2018

Gareth Marston said:
Had a lady try buy tickets using her confirmation of order E mail for her F & F this morning - I pointed out the warning and made her read it as she had printed off her e mail. Tickets cost her #40 more than she was expecting and she was even less impressed when i told her she could have walked in and spent 30 seconds filling in the form and had the railcard straight away.....

If we do anything online (not just rail related) myself other half and daughters (eldest is a Customer Service Manager for a large retail organization) always really make sure about what were signing up to before going ahead.

In many ways the online world has made things more complicated and full of pitfalls and the people who use it who don't think and want speed and convenience end up losing out.

Would it not have been cheaper for her to buy another railcard?

najaB · 26 Jul 2018

nickswift99 said:
Would it not have been cheaper for her to buy another railcard?

Yes, by £10 - but that's assuming she had photos of her and the companion to hand.

Gareth Marston · 26 Jul 2018

nickswift99 said:
Would it not have been cheaper for her to buy another railcard?

Yes it would have I did point it out - but i suspect her head wasn't in the right place to factor that in - she was disappointed like many online purchasers are

Gareth Marston · 26 Jul 2018

najaB said:
Yes, by £10 - but that's assuming she had photos of her and the companion to hand.

No need for photos with F & F its only the Two Together's & YP that require them.

najaB · 26 Jul 2018

Gareth Marston said:
No need for photos with F & F its only the Two Together's & YP that require them.

Sorry, you did write F&F but I read Two Together for some reason.

PermitToTravel · 2 Aug 2018

If you don't ever want to return to the UK you could fairly safely ignore the fine.

If you don't want to return to the UK within the next 6 years you might be able to safely ignore the fine.

Have a read around the consequences of failing to pay a court fine - if you haven't got any income from here, there's a good chance you don't need to worry about this

tiptoptaff · 2 Aug 2018

PermitToTravel said:
If you don't ever want to return to the UK you could fairly safely ignore the fine.

If you don't want to return to the UK within the next 6 years you might be able to safely ignore the fine.

Have a read around the consequences of failing to pay a court fine - if you haven't got any income from here, there's a good chance you don't need to worry about this

I don't think advocating ignoring a criminal fine is appropriate

farleigh · 2 Aug 2018

tiptoptaff said:
I don't think advocating ignoring a criminal fine is appropriate

He did not advocate it - he mentioned it.

And it is entirely appropriate as a consideration IMO

paddington · 3 Aug 2018

PermitToTravel said:
If you don't ever want to return to the UK you could fairly safely ignore the fine.

If you don't want to return to the UK within the next 6 years you might be able to safely ignore the fine.

Have a read around the consequences of failing to pay a court fine - if you haven't got any income from here, there's a good chance you don't need to worry about this

The OP will probably not be posting again, and did not specify this in the OP, but -

- if she is British and now living in Australia, the conviction may need to be disclosed at visa renewal and if she wants to become a permanent resident. If she applies for Australian citizenship it will be refused
- if she is Australian and was only visiting the UK, then there may be no serious consequences, and it also won't affect visiting the UK in the future
- if she is Australian and wants to live/work in the UK in the future, then the conviction may result in refusal of a UK visa until it is spent

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