Will I be prosecuted?

Jake1991 · 24 Jul 2018

Hi,

Nothing like this has ever happened to me before as I pay all my fares and usually allow myself reasonable time to get to my destinations.

So to begin my train from Dorking Main station was at 9.33am today to Epsom, I arrived at 9.30 with the barriers open at the station and i'd not really left myself enough time to get a ticket. I ran to the train and just assumed i would be able to explain and buy a return and show the ticket officer at Epsom that i had indeed purchased a ticket.

I was stopped by a frankly extremely rude and unhelpful person once i reached the barriers at Epsom. I asked kindly whether i could go through and buy a ticket and would come back and give them the ticket from the first part of my journey. At this point this person (i say person as they never actually identified what their position was) asked me to write my full name and address on a notepad and i complied without any questions. She then took me to one side and read me my rights and informed me i was not under arrest and asked me where i travelled from and whether i intended to avoid my fare. I of course denied as the first words i has even spoken to her were "Can i please go and buy a ticket i didn't have a chance in Dorking as I was running late".

She then proceeds to call someone up on the phone and gives them my details. After she hangs up i ask if i am going to be fined, i receive no answer. I am then asked to sign a notepad she has been writing on which had some information regarding times and what i had said, foolishly i signed this without reading it. I think she mumbled that she was going to caution me and i should receive something in the post and flashed some sort of badge but not for more than a second.

I then asked what the process was now and she just walked over to the barriers and let me through. I then bought my ticket and returned back to her to prove i had bought it and she replied with "It doesn't matter that you bought it, i don't care" I was taken slightly aback by this and asked for her name and she refused to give this for the first 2 times i asked. She then gave me her badge number (again assumption as i have no idea what the number relates to)

I then left the train station completely and utterly in the dark about the whole situation. I have made a complaint to SWT regarding the way i was spoken to and treated and that no information was given to me at all.

I would have accepted a penalty fare then and there as i accept i should have left myself reasonable time to purchase one.

I really don't want this to go to any sort of prosecution and would gladly pay any sort of fine that does not involve me getting a criminal record.

RailUK Forums

6Gman · 24 Jul 2018

Jake1991 said:
Hi,

Nothing like this has ever happened to me before as I pay all my fares and usually allow myself reasonable time to get to my destinations.

So to begin my train from Dorking Main station was at 9.33am today to Epsom, I arrived at 9.30 with the barriers open at the station and i'd not really left myself enough time to get a ticket. I ran to the train and just assumed i would be able to explain and buy a return and show the ticket officer at Epsom that i had indeed purchased a ticket.

I was stopped by a frankly extremely rude and unhelpful person once i reached the barriers at Epsom. I asked kindly whether i could go through and buy a ticket and would come back and give them the ticket from the first part of my journey. At this point this person (i say person as they never actually identified what their position was) asked me to write my full name and address on a notepad and i complied without any questions. She then took me to one side and read me my rights and informed me i was not under arrest and asked me where i travelled from and whether i intended to avoid my fare. I of course denied as the first words i has even spoken to her were "Can i please go and buy a ticket i didn't have a chance in Dorking as I was running late".

She then proceeds to call someone up on the phone and gives them my details. After she hangs up i ask if i am going to be fined, i receive no answer. I am then asked to sign a notepad she has been writing on which had some information regarding times and what i had said, foolishly i signed this without reading it. I think she mumbled that she was going to caution me and i should receive something in the post and flashed some sort of badge but not for more than a second.

I then asked what the process was now and she just walked over to the barriers and let me through. I then bought my ticket and returned back to her to prove i had bought it and she replied with "It doesn't matter that you bought it, i don't care" I was taken slightly aback by this and asked for her name and she refused to give this for the first 2 times i asked. She then gave me her badge number (again assumption as i have no idea what the number relates to)

I then left the train station completely and utterly in the dark about the whole situation. I have made a complaint to SWT regarding the way i was spoken to and treated and that no information was given to me at all.

I would have accepted a penalty fare then and there as i accept i should have left myself reasonable time to purchase one.

I really don't want this to go to any sort of prosecution and would gladly pay any sort of fine that does not involve me getting a criminal record.

There will be some more knowledgeable folk along shortly I'm sure but basically:

1. It is the passenger's responsibility to obtain a ticket before travel if there is an opportunity to do so. If you board a train without a ticket (having passed an opportunity to purchase) you have committed an offence. It is a strict liability offence.
2. The railway company has several options for dealing with such cases. These include a penalty fare (where such schemes are in place); an agreed settlement out of court ("pay us £x for our administrative costs + the fare and it goes no further"); a bye-law prosecution which will probably mean a fine but no criminal record; a prosecution under the Regulation of Railways Act which - if proven (and it requires them to persuade the court that there was intent to evade payment) - can lead to a fine and a criminal record.
3. The behaviour of the member of staff is irrelevant to the above.
4. Best advice is to wait for a communication from the railway company and then seek further advice on here.

Anvil1984 · 24 Jul 2018

All you can do really is wait for the letter from South Western and then people can advise further.

Basically you boarded a train at a staffed station with ticketing facilities everything else is pretty irrelevant and nothing SWR (or this forum) hasn’t heard before. Accusing the member of staff of being rude and buying a ticket AFTER theyve dealt with it has no bearing at all on this neither.

You’ll just have to wait to see what comes in the post

Jake1991 · 24 Jul 2018

6Gman said:
There will be some more knowledgeable folk along shortly I'm sure but basically:

1. It is the passenger's responsibility to obtain a ticket before travel if there is an opportunity to do so. If you board a train without a ticket (having passed an opportunity to purchase) you have committed an offence. It is a strict liability offence.
2. The railway company has several options for dealing with such cases. These include a penalty fare (where such schemes are in place); an agreed settlement out of court ("pay us £x for our administrative costs + the fare and it goes no further"); a bye-law prosecution which will probably mean a fine but no criminal record; a prosecution under the Regulation of Railways Act which - if proven (and it requires them to persuade the court that there was intent to evade payment) - can lead to a fine and a criminal record.
3. The behaviour of the member of staff is irrelevant to the above.
4. Best advice is to wait for a communication from the railway company and then seek further advice on here.

Thank you for the advice.

1. Fully admit culpability in the offence. I did try to justify and explain but would have fully accepted a penalty fare and paid it then and there. It was not my intention at all to avoid paying my fare and wish to avoid everything to do with court and prosecution.

2. I was under the impression that penalty fares had to be issued at the time of the offence? Can i still be issued with a penalty fare through the post?

3. Apologies, her behaviour just made a lasting impression hence my mentioning it.

Jake1991 · 24 Jul 2018

Anvil1984 said:
All you can do really is wait for the letter from South Western and then people can advise further.

Basically you boarded a train at a staffed station with ticketing facilities everything else is pretty irrelevant and nothing SWR (or this forum) hasn’t heard before. Accusing the member of staff of being rude and buying a ticket AFTER theyve dealt with it has no bearing at all on this neither.

You’ll just have to wait to see what comes in the post

Thank you for the advice.

I admit my culpability and would have accepted a penalty fare for my mistake. I just really don't want this to go any further than that and risk a criminal record.

It's the first time I have travelled without purchasing a ticket beforehand so it's all just very new to me and not something i have particularly looked into before.

ForTheLoveOf · 24 Jul 2018

Jake1991 said:
It was not my intention at all to avoid paying my fare and wish to avoid everything to do with court and prosecution.

If your actions demonstrate this lack of intent to avoid paying your fare, then the train company are unlikely to attempt a Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (RoRA) prosecution. However, they still have ultimate discretion over what, if any, out of Court settlement they may offer - and in the alternative, this would be a "bang to rights" Railway Byelaw 18 prosecution.

Jake1991 said:
2. I was under the impression that penalty fares had to be issued at the time of the offence? Can i still be issued with a penalty fare through the post?

Indeed - what 6Gman was probably referring to is that the railway company have that choice at the point of the matter being detected. They can issue a Penalty Fare to regularise the matter there and then - but it is at their discretion, and Penalty Fares are designed for people who have made an honest mistake, not people who knowingly don't buy a ticket before boarding. If they don't issue a Penalty Fare there and then, they can't issue it through the post. The only available ways of dispensing with the matter from there are through an out of Court settlement, or through a prosecution (or dropping the matter, in the extraordinarily unlikely event they don't think they have enough evidence).

There is nothing further you can do for now - simply wait for them to write to you, and then come back here if you need further advice.

Jake1991 · 24 Jul 2018

ForTheLoveOf said:
If your actions demonstrate this lack of intent to avoid paying your fare, then the train company are unlikely to attempt a Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (RoRA) prosecution. However, they still have ultimate discretion over what, if any, out of Court settlement they may offer - and in the alternative, this would be a "bang to rights" Railway Byelaw 18 prosecution.

Indeed - what 6Gman was probably referring to is that the railway company have that choice at the point of the matter being detected. They can issue a Penalty Fare to regularise the matter there and then - but it is at their discretion, and Penalty Fares are designed for people who have made an honest mistake, not people who knowingly don't buy a ticket before boarding. If they don't issue a Penalty Fare there and then, they can't issue it through the post. The only available ways of dispensing with the matter from there are through an out of Court settlement, or through a prosecution (or dropping the matter, in the extraordinarily unlikely event they don't think they have enough evidence).

There is nothing further you can do for now - simply wait for them to write to you, and then come back here if you need further advice.

Thank you for the advice.

A quick question on the Railway Byelaw 18 prosecution. Would that entail me getting a criminal record? I am more than happy to settle out of court and avoid any sort of prosecution at all So i am hoping that's what the letter will entail.

I shall patiently wait then.

ForTheLoveOf · 24 Jul 2018

Jake1991 said:
Thank you for the advice.

A quick question on the Railway Byelaw 18 prosecution. Would that entail me getting a criminal record? I am more than happy to settle out of court and avoid any sort of prosecution at all So i am hoping that's what the letter will entail.

I shall patiently wait then.

No, like most other Byelaws, there is no criminal record associated with a Railway Byelaw 18 conviction; it is an immediately spent conviction for the purposes of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974. Nevertheless, it may be a hindrance to receiving high-level security clearance for jobs which require you to disclose spent, as well as the usual unspent, convictions; it may also bar you from visa-free access to certain countries such as the US and Australia, depending on what questions they ask.

swt_passenger · 24 Jul 2018

I thought Epsom was a Southern station?

Jake1991 · 24 Jul 2018

swt_passenger said:
I thought Epsom was a Southern station?

I travelled on the Waterloo line which is SWT i believe. As I've mentioned i'm just completely out of my depth here.

I have rung SWT to explain the situation so i am more than happy to ring Southern as well.

Jake1991 · 24 Jul 2018

ForTheLoveOf said:
No, like most other Byelaws, there is no criminal record associated with a Railway Byelaw 18 conviction; it is an immediately spent conviction for the purposes of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974. Nevertheless, it may be a hindrance to receiving high-level security clearance for jobs which require you to disclose spent, as well as the usual unspent, convictions; it may also bar you from visa-free access to certain countries such as the US and Australia, depending on what questions they ask.

Thank you, you've been really helpful.

I will be trying to avoid that like the plague then. I'll await the letter and get solicitors involved if needs be. I have a good job that i would very much like to keep! If i need to grovel and say I've learnt my lesson (which i certainly have) then so be it.

swt_passenger · 24 Jul 2018

It’s worth checking your paperwork, but in normal circumstances revenue staff met on trains will almost always belong to the operating Train company, but at a station gate-line they will usually be employed by the station operator, which can often be different.

Jake1991 · 24 Jul 2018

swt_passenger said:
It’s worth checking your paperwork, but in normal circumstances revenue staff met on trains will almost always belong to the operating Train company, but at a station gate-line they will usually be employed by the station operator, which can often be different.

Thank you.

I will give Southern a call and hopefully i can diffuse the situation slightly. Certainly won't be making that mistake again.

6Gman · 24 Jul 2018

Not sure of the point of phoning at this stage.

The incident was only today. The member of staff who dealt with you will have a list of cases to deal with and paperwork to sort which she will then pass on to the office. Where files will be prepared and then letters sent to those involved. Other than general advice nobody will be in a position to deal with your case.

I realise you want to get it sorted but I think you really have to wait for them to write to you.

Hadders · 24 Jul 2018

I agree that there is no point in phoning at this stage. Dealings about this sort of thing are best done in writing.

DaveNewcastle · 24 Jul 2018

Jake1991 said:
I will give Southern a call and hopefully i can diffuse the situation slightly.

6Gman said:
Not sure of the point of phoning at this stage.

The incident was only today. The member of staff who dealt with you will have a list of cases to deal with and paperwork to sort which she will then pass on to the office. Where files will be prepared and then letters sent to those involved. Other than general advice nobody will be in a position to deal with your case.

I realise you want to get it sorted but I think you really have to wait for them to write to you.

Hadders said:
I agree that there is no point in phoning at this stage. Dealings about this sort of thing are best done in writing.

It is correct to advise that there is no point in phoning (which can be a frustratingly slow process, only to learn that it has been fruitless!).
There are hundreds of incidents like this every day, and while some are trivial, are innocent, follow from random checks, etc., there are also many which involve regular fare evaders and a small number which are serious organised criminal enterprises. They are all reported and logged, and they are all then investigated to provide the evidence which enables an informed decision to be made. That can range from a decision how to progress the investigation :- to abandon, to continue, or to escalate, etc.
You will just have to wait - the passage of time has absolutely no bearing on the outcome. It might give you the sense that you can shift the outcome in your favour if you take early action, but in reality, it won't.
That decision will be determined only by the facts.

Although it may not be of much comfort to know that, at this stage, the investigation doesn't differentiate you from an established fraudster, you can be assured that it equally doesn't differentiate you from an innocent and well-intentioned paying passenger.
Just wait for the request to respond when one of the investigating team has got your incident come up for their attention.

Hope this helps.

furlong · 25 Jul 2018

If you bought the correct ticket for the journey already made, keep it safe as you might want to produce it if at a later stage if they ask you to pay the fare.

Think whether you have any evidence that would back up what you implied about being unintentionally late for your train (in case they try to argue that at some point you intended to avoid paying your fare) - or whether you could make a request for CCTV. If you'd missed it how long would you have had to wait for the next train and consider if that would have caused much of a problem.

Fawkes Cat · 25 Jul 2018

Jake1991 said:
I have a good job that i would very much like to keep!

- This is entirely understandable, and all employers have different approaches, but you probably don't have anything to worry about.

Most employers are only interested in your out of work conduct to the extent that it impacts on your ability to do the job. Failing once to buy a train ticket does not reflect well on your honesty, judgement or time-keeping - but as a one-off occurrence, it also suggests that you are human. In my experience, employers only start to worry if someone makes a habit of doing things wrong, or do something major that is wrong.

If you're concerned that this may have an impact on your job, then it may be worth seeing if there is anyone you can talk to in confidence to find out what line your employer is likely to take. I'm thinking your trade union / staff association / professional body or just simply someone else who works there whose knowledge and judgement you trust. It's worth knowing the consequences before worrying too much.

If the railway do decide to take this matter further, then it's probably sensible to be open with your employer: if they do put a very high value on honesty and judgement then an attempt to conceal an incident might well be taken as aggravating what you have already done.

Jake1991 · 25 Jul 2018

furlong said:
If you bought the correct ticket for the journey already made, keep it safe as you might want to produce it if at a later stage if they ask you to pay the fare.

Think whether you have any evidence that would back up what you implied about being unintentionally late for your train (in case they try to argue that at some point you intended to avoid paying your fare) - or whether you could make a request for CCTV. If you'd missed it how long would you have had to wait for the next train and consider if that would have caused much of a problem.

Thanks for the advice.

I know CCTV would have seen me walk through the open barriers at Dorking at around 9.30am. I didn't want to chance missing my train as that's happened to me before. I've completely learnt my lesson and won't be that niave again to think it wouldnt be a problem.

Honestly the lady i dealt with didn't really ask me for much information. I believe i said that i couldn't buy a ticket as i was in a rush, that was all that was really said until she let me through the barriers after taking all my details. I bought my ticket retrospectively and then went back to show her and tried to explain myself in more detail but she didn't write any of that down.

I believe if i got the train after i would have arrived at 9.53 thus not allowing me time to get to my office.

Jake1991 · 25 Jul 2018

Fawkes Cat said:
- This is entirely understandable, and all employers have different approaches, but you probably don't have anything to worry about.

Most employers are only interested in your out of work conduct to the extent that it impacts on your ability to do the job. Failing once to buy a train ticket does not reflect well on your honesty, judgement or time-keeping - but as a one-off occurrence, it also suggests that you are human. In my experience, employers only start to worry if someone makes a habit of doing things wrong, or do something major that is wrong.

If you're concerned that this may have an impact on your job, then it may be worth seeing if there is anyone you can talk to in confidence to find out what line your employer is likely to take. I'm thinking your trade union / staff association / professional body or just simply someone else who works there whose knowledge and judgement you trust. It's worth knowing the consequences before worrying too much.

If the railway do decide to take this matter further, then it's probably sensible to be open with your employer: if they do put a very high value on honesty and judgement then an attempt to conceal an incident might well be taken as aggravating what you have already done.

Thank you for the advice

I'm in a fairly senior role so avoiding court is practically a must for me.

I am hoping once a letter is received i can grovel for an out of court settlement if they don't offer me that in the first place. Should i need to get solicitors involved that's also no issue.

Jake1991 · 25 Jul 2018

DaveNewcastle said:
It is correct to advise that there is no point in phoning (which can be a frustratingly slow process, only to learn that it has been fruitless!).
There are hundreds of incidents like this every day, and while some are trivial, are innocent, follow from random checks, etc., there are also many which involve regular fare evaders and a small number which are serious organised criminal enterprises. They are all reported and logged, and they are all then investigated to provide the evidence which enables an informed decision to be made. That can range from a decision how to progress the investigation :- to abandon, to continue, or to escalate, etc.
You will just have to wait - the passage of time has absolutely no bearing on the outcome. It might give you the sense that you can shift the outcome in your favour if you take early action, but in reality, it won't.
That decision will be determined only by the facts.

Although it may not be of much comfort to know that, at this stage, the investigation doesn't differentiate you from an established fraudster, you can be assured that it equally doesn't differentiate you from an innocent and well-intentioned paying passenger.
Just wait for the request to respond when one of the investigating team has got your incident come up for their attention.

Hope this helps.

Thank you for the advice.

It does help. It's so fresh in my mind that really it's just a major worry for me.

However having read through the forum and googled to my hearts content i am confident that settling out of court is very much achievable. There are others that have done far worse than what i did and have managed to do it without legal aid. So i see myself in a good position to start with.

It's not a mistake i will ever make again and really i guess that is the point of the system. So whilst i don't appreciate the way i was treated i do now understand that it's a serious problem and despite how innocent ones intentions may be everyone needs to be treated equally.

This forum really has helped and once i do receive my letter i'll be back for some more advice on the best way to word my response should i not initially receive an out of court settlement (which i am very much hoping for!)

Jake1991 · 25 Jul 2018

Just as an addage and i am not sure if this help my case.

Checking my bank account i can provide evidence of buying train fares to work for the past year. Sporadically as i work from home most days but i've spent over £550 on fares since last July. So hopefully that shows this is a one off incident.

Hadders · 25 Jul 2018

It potentially shows it was a one-off incident but the key fact is you didn't have a ticket on the day in question and that is the thing that counts.

Jake1991 · 25 Jul 2018

Hadders said:
It potentially shows it was a one-off incident but the key fact is you didn't have a ticket on the day in question and that is the thing that counts.

Oh of course. Not disputing that whatsoever.

I will just hope because of that fact that some leniency will be shown and they will opt for a settlement out of court. It was naive mistake and not one i will be repeating.

Surely their time is best spent on repeat offenders and not someone who just made a mistake.

Hadders · 25 Jul 2018

The best thing to do is to wait until the letter arrives, write a concise, polite reply apologising for what has happened, say that you've learned from the incident and that you are willing to pay the outstanding fare plus their administrative costs in dealing with the matter.

Engaging with them in this way, and not messing them around should see a positive result for a first time offender.

There are examples of the sorts of letters you can write in other threads on this part of the forum.

Jake1991 · 25 Jul 2018

Hadders said:
The best thing to do is to wait until the letter arrives, write a concise, polite reply apologising for what has happened, say that you've learned from the incident and that you are willing to pay the outstanding fare plus their administrative costs in dealing with the matter.

Engaging with them in this way, and not messing them around should see a positive result for a first time offender.

There are examples of the sorts of letters you can write in other threads on this part of the forum.

Thank you. That's very helpful.

Oh there is no way i am going to mess them around, taking this very seriously indeed.

MotCO · 25 Jul 2018

One further suggestion - write copious notes of exactly what happened, who said what etc. whilst it is still fresh in your mind. Over the next few days you can add to it as you remember other points. In a few weeks time when you get the dreaded letter, you will have your notes to refer to, making writing the reply much easier.

6Gman · 26 Jul 2018

Jake1991 said:
Oh of course. Not disputing that whatsoever.

I will just hope because of that fact that some leniency will be shown and they will opt for a settlement out of court. It was naive mistake and not one i will be repeating.

Surely their time is best spent on repeat offenders and not someone who just made a mistake.

It is. And they do. But every repeat offender is a first offender at the beginning ...

Jake1991 · 26 Jul 2018

6Gman said:
It is. And they do. But every repeat offender is a first offender at the beginning ...

Very true. Through complete naivety i didn't think there was a problem as long as i bought my ticket at some point during my journey. Ignorance and lack of knowledge is not a defence of course but that's what this was.

I have learnt my lesson though and shall be apologetic and hopefully manage to get an out of court settlement that both parties are happy with.

Will I be prosecuted?

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