Penalty Fare for not having enough Oyster PAYG credit on National Rail

CNash · 24 Jul 2018

Today I travelled from Cannon Street (Zone 1) to Belvedere (Zone 5) while holding a Zones 1-4 Travelcard loaded onto my Oyster card. I was aware that I didn't have much PAYG credit on the card - less than £1 - but was confident that I could simply touch out at Belvedere, taking me into negative balance, then top up at the ticket machine before boarding a bus for my onward journey (as otherwise I wouldn't have been able to use my Oyster card on the bus with a negative balance). I should mention that I've done this before several times, both at Belvedere and at other stations like Morden on the Northern Line.

However, as bad luck would have it, there was a revenue block at Belvedere this evening. The nice RPI man took my ticket from me and refused to let me touch out, instead issuing me a Penalty Fare. I tried to explain that had he not been there, I would have touched out and resolved my negative balance and everything would have been fine, but he would not be swayed by my argument, claiming that the rules were different on non-TfL services and inviting me to appeal (though he would not comment on my likelihood of success).

My question therefore is.... was he right? Why would there be different rules for travel on a National Rail service outside of my Travelcard zones, as opposed to on TfL services? I presume that if this is the case, there's another document which sets this rule out somewhere? Secondly, I'd like a logical answer to my second point: that if the revenue block hadn't been there, I would have faced no punishment or repercussions at all for going temporarily into a negative balance on touch-out at Belvedere. How can they selectively enforce a rule that isn't ordinarily enforced?

RailUK Forums

transmanche · 24 Jul 2018

According to the Oyster Conditions of Use on National Rail services the revenue inspector was right. Strictly speaking, you must have sufficient PAYG credit before making the journey.

Oyster Conditions of Use on National Rail services said:
3.20 If you are using an Oyster card with a Travelcard season ticket on it and you are travelling on a Train Company service to a station beyond the availability of your Travelcard season ticket, but within the London National Rail Pay As You Go Area, you must touch in before you start your journey and have sufficient pay as you go credit on your card to cover the cost of the additional travel. If you fail to touch in at the start of your journey, or have insufficient pay as you go credit, you may be issued with a penalty fare or be prosecuted.

(My highlighting.)

There are separate conditions for use on the Underground, DLR and on Overground/TfL Rail. Only the National Rail one specifically states that you must have sufficient PAYG credit before starting the journey.

If you had auto top-up enabled, I don't believe you would have been issued a penalty fare in those circumstances (and definitely would not have been on a TfL service).

transmanche · 24 Jul 2018

CNash said:
Secondly, I'd like a logical answer to my second point: that if the revenue block hadn't been there, I would have faced no punishment or repercussions at all for going temporarily into a negative balance on touch-out at Belvedere. How can they selectively enforce a rule that isn't ordinarily enforced?

My guess is that the TOC view is different from TfL: the TOC assumes that you may not touch-out at Belvedere at all and thus deprive them of their revenue.

My suggestion is to set-up auto top-up and/or install the TfL Oyster app on your phone. You can check your balance using the app and even top-up on the go. (I'm not sure how TOC revenue inspectors would react to an Oyster card that appears to have a negative balance on it and where there is already a top-up waiting to be collected when you touch-out.) The National Rail conditions date from 2015 and haven't kept up with Oyster developments.

CNash · 24 Jul 2018

Thanks for the quote. It had honestly never occured to me that there might be different rules concerning negative balances on National Rail vs. other Oyster-accepting services. I presumed that it was all one system with the same rules everywhere. Maybe it just hasn't been updated, as you say - when did the ability to enter negative balance first appear?

Do you think I'd succeed if I were to appeal, on the grounds that enforcing the rule only when there's a revenue block and not at any other time is mainfestly unfair? If the station had barriers this situation would never have occurred, I would simply have been allowed to exit with a negative balance and nobody would (or could) have done anything about it. I'm guessing that they'd simply stonewall me with the passage from the Conditions of Use document, though.

A funny thought struck me while I was walking away. The inspector was very careful to keep hold of my Oyster card at all times while he was issuing the Penalty Fare - he almost forgot to give it back! If I had kept hold of it and touched out on the nearby reader, would he have been able to issue the Penalty Fare at all, given that under TfL's rules I would then have made a complete journey by touching in and touching out?

swt_passenger · 24 Jul 2018

Academic point really, but I wonder if the national rail T&C might have been altered to that above since they got rid of that stupid “extension permit” (OEP) scheme?

Bertie the bus · 24 Jul 2018

CNash said:
Do you think I'd succeed if I were to appeal, on the grounds that enforcing the rule only when there's a revenue block and not at any other time is mainfestly unfair?

No because it isn't. I'm unsure how you expect them to enforce when there isn't a revenue block and the station doesn't have gates.

Hadders · 24 Jul 2018

I'd pay the Penalty Fare and chalk it up to experience. As others have said use auto top-up or the app to avoid being in this situation again.

causton · 24 Jul 2018

CNash said:
A funny thought struck me while I was walking away. The inspector was very careful to keep hold of my Oyster card at all times while he was issuing the Penalty Fare - he almost forgot to give it back! If I had kept hold of it and touched out on the nearby reader, would he have been able to issue the Penalty Fare at all, given that under TfL's rules I would then have made a complete journey by touching in and touching out?

Not really, as a Penalty Fare is an 'at the time of being stopped' event. You may be able to provide a valid ticket, or show you completed a valid journey after the event is over, but at the time of being stopped you were out of your zones and did not have enough PAYG credit for an extension.

CNash · 24 Jul 2018

Bertie the bus said:
No because it isn't. I'm unsure how you expect them to enforce when there isn't a revenue block and the station doesn't have gates.

That's not my point. The Oyster system will happily let me go into a negative balance on touch-out no matter where in the system I am. If the readers at National Rail stations were programmed not to let this happen, then perhaps today's Penalty Fare would be justified. But at the moment I feel like I've been deliberately set up to fail; because the system has allowed me to do this in the past with no hint of wrongdoing, I feel aggrieved that just because a revenue block happened to be there, I now have to pay a penalty for something that I had no idea was wrong.

ForTheLoveOf · 24 Jul 2018

CNash said:
That's not my point. The Oyster system will happily let me go into a negative balance on touch-out no matter where in the system I am. If the readers at National Rail stations were programmed not to let this happen, then perhaps today's Penalty Fare would be justified. But at the moment I feel like I've been deliberately set up to fail; because the system has allowed me to do this in the past with no hint of wrongdoing, I feel aggrieved that just because a revenue block happened to be there, I now have to pay a penalty for something that I had no idea was wrong.

It's what's known as strict liability offence - it doesn't matter whether you knew what you were doing was wrong, or whether you intended to do anything wrong. Travelling on the railway without a valid ticket, where you had an opportunity to buy a valid ticket before boarding, is such an offence. The defences are limited to - I didn't travel, my ticket was valid, and I didn't have an opportunity to buy a valid ticket before boarding. I don't think any of those apply here.

The fact that the situation may be morally unfair is irrelevant - if you don't pay the Penalty Fare you can expect to be prosecuted, leaving you with a fine of several hundred pounds most likely, plus costs. I don't rate your chances of appeal really; you've been caught "bang to rights"!

CNash · 24 Jul 2018

ForTheLoveOf said:
It's what's known as strict liability offence - it doesn't matter whether you knew what you were doing was wrong, or whether you intended to do anything wrong. Travelling on the railway without a valid ticket, where you had an opportunity to buy a valid ticket before boarding, is such an offence. The defences are limited to - I didn't travel, my ticket was valid, and I didn't have an opportunity to buy a valid ticket before boarding. I don't think any of those apply here.

The fact that the situation may be morally unfair is irrelevant - if you don't pay the Penalty Fare you can expect to be prosecuted, leaving you with a fine of several hundred pounds most likely, plus costs. I don't rate your chances of appeal really; you've been caught "bang to rights"!

I understand that it's strict liabilty and I'm familiar with how it works when using regular paper tickets. But I've always known (or thought I knew) that once you touch in with Oyster, you are "in the system" and cannot be subject to a Penalty Fare; the system will work out how much you need to pay when you touch out, and if that takes you into a negative balance (which isn't possible on paper tickets) then so be it. As long as you touch in at the start and touch out at the end, you will always pay the correct fare. It turns out that this only applies to some services, and it's not entirely clear or logical as to why.

And this doesn't negate my prior point. If the revenue block hadn't been there, I would have been fine. This is not consistent behaviour.

ForTheLoveOf · 24 Jul 2018

CNash said:
I understand that it's strict liabilty and I'm familiar with how it works when using regular paper tickets. But I've always known (or thought I knew) that once you touch in with Oyster, you are "in the system" and cannot be subject to a Penalty Fare; the system will work out how much you need to pay when you touch out, and if that takes you into a negative balance (which isn't possible on paper tickets) then so be it. As long as you touch in at the start and touch out at the end, you will always pay the correct fare. It turns out that this only applies to some services, and it's not entirely clear or logical as to why.

And this doesn't negate my prior point. If the revenue block hadn't been there, I would have been fine. This is not consistent behaviour.

I'm not disagreeing with you that it's morally unjustifiable! Nevertheless I see little point in fighting it - it will only make this mistake more expensive. I suggest, as others also have suggested, that you switch on auto top-up to prevent this from occuring again.

Starmill · 24 Jul 2018

If I'm honest I suspect this has happened to me unwittingly in the past, probably several times. I've definitely done it on LU a great many times. The last time it happened to me was because an OSI was mistakingly activated, leaving an incorrect maximum fare on my card when it was considered that I'd exceeded the maximum journey time. The balance is always quickly cleared and it is easy to get the maximum fare part refunded on the phone.

Naturally this is a ridiculous policy that they have enforced against you, especially given they have never enforced it against me or probably many thousands of other customers, and also that London Underground and others have a more sensible policy. However, as this is the Railway industry, they have the legal rights to enforce an unreasonable penalty against you. What are you going to do to stop them?

CNash said:
This is not consistent behaviour.

Of course it's not consistent. If you travelled between two stations without buying a ticket or touching in and the gates were simply open then you'd get a free journey if there were no RPIs at your destination, and a Penalty Fare if there were. Unfortunately this is a parallel to your situation in the view of the train company, and the law accommodates them taking that view.

The only thing I can think to say is that if you pay the £20 Penalty Fare then that £20covers your journey, so no charge for that journey should be made to your card.

DaveNewcastle · 24 Jul 2018

There has been a policy on TfL busses for a few years now, to permit 'one more journey' on an Oyster Card which has insufficient funds. I haven't seen much said about that policy recently, but perhaps it remains applicable - to busses. The same does not apply to TfL rail, and certainly does not apply to mainline rail.

There *IS* a question of liability for a fare when an Oyster Card carries a £5 refundable deposit, and it has not been possible to secure a conviction by TfL for an unpaid fare to TfL where the refundable deposit would cover the liability in full. Again, I can't see a secure basis for an immunity from conviction, on account of the £5 deposit, beyond the territory of TfL.

CNash · 24 Jul 2018

DaveNewcastle said:
There has been a policy on TfL busses for a few years now, to permit 'one more journey' on an Oyster Card which has insufficient funds. I haven't seen much said about that policy recently, but perhaps it remains applicable - to busses. The same does not apply to TfL rail, and certainly does not apply to mainline rail.

There *IS* a question of liability for a fare when an Oyster Card carries a £5 refundable deposit, and it has not been possible to secure a conviction by TfL for an unpaid fare to TfL where the refundable deposit would cover the liability in full. Again, I can't see a secure basis for an immunity from conviction, on account of the £5 deposit, beyond the territory of TfL.

I'm not sure this is exactly applicable. If I had insufficient funds on a journey that started outside of the zones on my Travelcard, I would expect the readers to not allow a touch-in. I think this situation can only arise if you start from within a zone covered by a Travelcard on your Oyster card, and end in a zone that's not covered. Usually, the Oyster system works out the correct extension fare and deducts it from your PAYG, including taking you into negative balance if you don't have enough (as otherwise you might be trapped with an incomplete journey if you end at an unstaffed station with no barriers, for example).

yorkie · 24 Jul 2018

CNash said:
...The ~~nice~~ RPI man took my ticket from me and refused to let me touch out, instead issuing me a Penalty Fare. ...

These are standalone readers that can tap in or out, right? In which case, if they are blocking the readers, I would co-operate and not argue BUT I would later go round to the other side of the station to tap out there. I would do everything it takes to ensure I tapped out. I would then contest the Penalty Fare.

CNash · 24 Jul 2018

yorkie said:
These are standalone readers that can tap in or out, right? In which case, if they are blocking the readers, I would co-operate and not argue BUT I would later go round to the other side of the station to tap out there. I would do everything it takes to ensure I tapped out. I would then contest the Penalty Fare.

Ah, the more you know I guess. I asked whether I should touch out, but the inspector told me not to, as I had already paid the Penalty Fare.

PeterC · 25 Jul 2018

CNash said:
I understand that it's strict liabilty and I'm familiar with how it works when using regular paper tickets. But I've always known (or thought I knew) that once you touch in with Oyster, you are "in the system" and cannot be subject to a Penalty Fare; the system will work out how much you need to pay when you touch out, and if that takes you into a negative balance (which isn't possible on paper tickets) then so be it. As long as you touch in at the start and touch out at the end, you will always pay the correct fare. It turns out that this only applies to some services, and it's not entirely clear or logical as to why.

And this doesn't negate my prior point. If the revenue block hadn't been there, I would have been fine. This is not consistent behaviour.

I was certainly unaware of this distinction as well. TfL's own FAQs are quite clear that you are allowed to go into negative balance if you travel outside your zones without making the user aware that page 6 of a PDF document accessed by a different route through the website says different.

What is the situation if you alight from a LUL/Overground/TfL Rail train at a station that they don't manage such as Shenfield?

matt_world2004 · 25 Jul 2018

My understanding is that providing you have tapped in at the beggining of the journey you should not be issued a penalty fare. The deposit you pay for an oyster card is what the negative fare comes out of and is indeed used to indemnify tocs when this happens a valid touch in on the card regardless of credit levels means you have a valid ticket.

MikeWh · 25 Jul 2018

DaveNewcastle said:
There has been a policy on TfL busses for a few years now, to permit 'one more journey' on an Oyster Card which has insufficient funds. I haven't seen much said about that policy recently, but perhaps it remains applicable - to busses. The same does not apply to TfL rail, and certainly does not apply to mainline rail.

There *IS* a question of liability for a fare when an Oyster Card carries a £5 refundable deposit, and it has not been possible to secure a conviction by TfL for an unpaid fare to TfL where the refundable deposit would cover the liability in full. Again, I can't see a secure basis for an immunity from conviction, on account of the £5 deposit, beyond the territory of TfL.

This post is very to the point. Yes, one more journey still exists on buses, and probably always will.

I'll go further than Dave and state that in my opinion this policy is extremely dodgy and should be amended. Using Oyster is a two-stage process. The passenger pays money up-front to TfL in the form of a deposit and PAYG credit. (even if top-up is done at an NR station the money still goes to TfL). When the passenger touches in and out for a journey TfL registers this fact and pays the required amount to the TOC. If the passenger doesn't have enough money on their card such that the balance goes negative on touch out, the TOC still gets their money. The 'debt' (deposit notwithstanding) is between the passenger and TfL.

TOC RPIs are supposed to protect revenue for their employers. If a touch out will cause the revenue to be transferred to the TOC then it should be allowed as no loss to the TOC will occur.

There are cases where a penalty fare is appropriate, eg no touch in recorded, railcard discount applied without possession of railcard, etc, etc, but having insufficient funds is not appropriate unless the passenger has walked past the readers and is intending to not touch out.

I also concur with yorkie. In this situation I would co-operate, but not pay the penalty fare at the time. I would return shortly afterwards to the station and touch out within the maximum journey time. If there are unguarded readers elsewhere I'd try those first. If I was stopped on my return I would claim that I wanted to make a new journey and ask them whether they were giving me permission to travel without touching in. If they let me touch I would point out that the display said exit so I'd obviously now finished my earlier journey. If necessary I'd wait 2 minutes then touch in again and make a journey to the next station. In any event I would contest the penalty fare on the basis that the original journey was completed properly.

yorkie · 25 Jul 2018

CNash said:
Ah, the more you know I guess. I asked whether I should touch out, but the inspector told me not to, as I had already paid the Penalty Fare.

Yes of course they'd say that, as if you had tapped out, you'd have paid the correct fare and been able to successfully appeal, and that isn't what they'd want

(A PF can still be appealed after it has been paid).

londonboi198o5 · 25 Jul 2018

If you knew you didn’t have enough money on the Oyster card PAYG why did you not top it up before you travelled. That will be a question the TOC would ask if you where to appeal. As you had the funds to top up at the end after you tapped out why not top it up before you travelled

furlong · 25 Jul 2018

CNash said:
I should mention that I've done this before several times, both at Belvedere

Do you have any evidence to support that? (Alongside no history of incomplete journeys.) If it was not allowed, you ought to have been warned on each occasion - for example a message could have been displayed on the reader or they could have sent you an email or letter - otherwise you might reasonably conclude, as you did, that it was OK to do this and not subject to a Penalty Fare.

There is nothing to lose by an appeal, but if your first appeal is rejected, be prepared to appeal twice more to reach the final appeals body which is the only one documented as taking into account wider circumstances of a case. (Under the rules I think they are all required to do this, but the DfT seems to have allowed the first two appeals bodies to limit themselves to what appears to be an incorrectly restricted set of criteria for allowing an appeal.)

furlong · 25 Jul 2018

Also, perhaps return to Cannon St and check that there are Penalty Fares posters that fully conform to the new simplified rules. This seems to be judged as a straightforward matter of fact now, whether or not the posters conform at the station where you began your journey, and if you find any part of the station that does not conform, state that as grounds why the appeals body has no alternative but to uphold your appeal. (The way appeals still work, the burden of proof lies with the TOC to provide evidence that what you say is incorrect. Under the new rules it seems that the station as a whole either conforms or it does not - your actual route through the station on the occasion concerned is irrelevant, though it's of course worth mentioning if it was a route that didn't conform.)

njamescouk · 25 Jul 2018

schedule 1 gives the specification for a pf notice.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/made

njamescouk · 25 Jul 2018

hypothetical question: if I get on a train at a station with no pf notice and get off at one with a pf notice, can I be charged a pf?

ForTheLoveOf · 25 Jul 2018

njamescouk said:
hypothetical question: if I get on a train at a station with no pf notice and get off at one with a pf notice, can I be charged a pf?

No. You must have adequate notice of that you are entering a Penalty Fares "zone" before you board the train for Penalty Fares to be enforceable.

However, I am slightly surprised that others are suggesting appealing the matter - surely this is only likely to lead to the TOC withdrawing the PF and then prosecuting the OP, where the OP would have to make these highly technical arguments in front of the Magistrates. I don't think this is the wisest choice - IMO, simply pay up and get it over with.

farleigh · 25 Jul 2018

I can see the point of the OP.
By letting you in, the reader does seem to indicate to a reasonable person that it is OK to make the journey.

Nevertheless, the RPI acted - at best - in a poor manner. That is not a surprise to me.

CNash · 25 Jul 2018

MikeWh said:
I also concur with yorkie. In this situation I would co-operate, but not pay the penalty fare at the time. I would return shortly afterwards to the station and touch out within the maximum journey time. If there are unguarded readers elsewhere I'd try those first. If I was stopped on my return I would claim that I wanted to make a new journey and ask them whether they were giving me permission to travel without touching in. If they let me touch I would point out that the display said exit so I'd obviously now finished my earlier journey. If necessary I'd wait 2 minutes then touch in again and make a journey to the next station. In any event I would contest the penalty fare on the basis that the original journey was completed properly.

Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately I can't do this now, but if/when I appeal I'll bring up some of the points you've made regarding TOCs and receiving revenue even if the card balance is negative. It's going to be somewhat of an "appeal to common sense", though, and from some of the other posts in this forum I'm not convinced it's likely to succeed.

londonboi198o5 said:
If you knew you didn’t have enough money on the Oyster card PAYG why did you not top it up before you travelled. That will be a question the TOC would ask if you where to appeal. As you had the funds to top up at the end after you tapped out why not top it up before you travelled

Firstly, I was already on the train by the time I'd decided to go to Belvedere. Usually I go to/from Abbey Wood. Secondly, I was relying on the Oyster system's allowing me to go into a negative balance on my card - which, as I've said, would have been completely fine had the revenue block not been there.

furlong said:
Do you have any evidence to support that? (Alongside no history of incomplete journeys.) If it was not allowed, you ought to have been warned on each occasion - for example a message could have been displayed on the reader or they could have sent you an email or letter - otherwise you might reasonably conclude, as you did, that it was OK to do this and not subject to a Penalty Fare.

There is nothing to lose by an appeal, but if your first appeal is rejected, be prepared to appeal twice more to reach the final appeals body which is the only one documented as taking into account wider circumstances of a case. (Under the rules I think they are all required to do this, but the DfT seems to have allowed the first two appeals bodies to limit themselves to what appears to be an incorrectly restricted set of criteria for allowing an appeal.)

Thanks for the advice; I've never appealed before so I was unaware of the three stages, which is good to know. I don't have any evidence of going into a negative balance on NR routes previously; I can't remember the last time I did so (i.e. I don't do it routinely). I could make the same journey tonight and willingly go into a negative balance just to prove a point and construct evidence in my favour, but I think this is very risky and could easily work against me - especially if the revenue inspectors are still there.

CNash · 25 Jul 2018

ForTheLoveOf said:
No. You must have adequate notice of that you are entering a Penalty Fares "zone" before you board the train for Penalty Fares to be enforceable.

However, I am slightly surprised that others are suggesting appealing the matter - surely this is only likely to lead to the TOC withdrawing the PF and then prosecuting the OP, where the OP would have to make these highly technical arguments in front of the Magistrates. I don't think this is the wisest choice - IMO, simply pay up and get it over with.

No fear of that, I've already paid the PF - going by other threads I've read on this forum where the advice has always been to pay now and appeal later, to prevent the TOC from taking any further action if they're feeling petty.

Penalty Fare for not having enough Oyster PAYG credit on National Rail

Member

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member

Forum Staff

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Forum Staff

On Moderation

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Member