Coupling of Units (Pedantic?)

WestRiding · 25 Jul 2018

After traveling quite a bit in Germany, I started to draw comparisons about how we go about coupling two units together in this country, compared to German operations by DB. Would it be fair to say we in the UK are rather pedantic when coupling units, and if so, why are we? I noticed while waiting on Ohlsdorf not far from Hamburg airport. A service train arrives from the airport every 20 mins full of passengers, generally 3 car, sits in the platform full of passengers with the doors open. Then a few mins later, another 3 car arrives sharing the same platform, proceeds right up to the rear of the train which previously arrived, without stopping, couples up immediately (again in service full of passengers) couple up done, doors open. And away the train goes as a 6 car into Hamburg. So, why do we go through the somewhat lengthy exercise of not letting passengers on the unit, or shutting the doors at the very least, and we certainly don't couple up immediately without stopping and doing station duties first......? No doubt I will get shot down because nobody has a better system than we in the UK. Based mainly on my experiences with Northern.

RailUK Forums

eastwestdivide · 25 Jul 2018

Perhaps not so much "pedantic" as "risk-averse" in the UK.

DelW · 25 Jul 2018

I used the S-bahn in from Hamburg airport last autumn, and the connection was so quick and fuss-free that it was only when I disembarked at HbF and saw that I was no longer in the rearmost coach that I realised a unit had coupled on behind. I don't recall any announcement being made to passengers about it at Ohlsdorf (IIRC they are in English as well as German on that line).

Certainly there was much less faffing around than when I have seen (then) SWT couple two Desiros together in Guildford.

37057 · 25 Jul 2018

DelW said:
Certainly there was much less faffing around than when I have seen (then) SWT couple two Desiros together in Guildford.

Desiros EMUs are a bit of a faff to control at such low speed to be fair and its not something you'd want to rush either.

pompeyfan · 25 Jul 2018

the reason why is because the rule book says so, if a unit goes straight on top it’s classed as a collision. The doors on newer stock need to be closed while an attachment takes place because otherwise it can cause a fault to go through the train which may mean the train has to terminate. Of course that doesn’t answer the deeper question of why. It could well be changed in years to come. But I doubt it.

185 · 25 Jul 2018

pompeyfan said:
the reason why is because the rule book says so, if a unit goes straight on top it’s classed as a collision

And there lyeth the problem - it was how two sets were coupled for many years. A simple PA - please make sure you are seated... and the most gentle of couplings at 2mph-ish. It went on for years without any problem, however I do recognise that here in Little America, the slightest jolt is enough for 90% of the public to ask for compo.

DenmarkRail · 25 Jul 2018

Britain has the worst record of over protective nannying for health and safety... This streatches beyond railways. It is ridiculous.

GB · 25 Jul 2018

DenmarkRail said:
Britain has the worst record of over protective nannying for health and safety... This streatches beyond railways. It is ridiculous.

What nannying health and safety legislation is prevalent in the UK but not most other countries?

BlythPower · 25 Jul 2018

DenmarkRail said:
Britain has the worst record of over cautious and greedy insurance companies and ambulance chasing lawyers... This streatches beyond railways. It is ridiculous.

Tidied for you...

Warwick · 25 Jul 2018

eastwestdivide said:
Perhaps not so much "pedantic" as "risk-averse" in the UK.

And naturally in Germany they don't care about passenger safety. Or perhaps they take a more sensible pragmatic approach.

Bantamzen · 25 Jul 2018

GB said:
What nannying health and safety legislation is prevalent in the UK but not most other countries?

Its not so much the legislation, until otherwise reviewed most even post-Brexit will be the same as the EU. Its the application of the legislation that often seems to spawn an industry in itself with H&S regs.

Dieseldriver · 25 Jul 2018

UK services do routinely couple/uncouple with passengers on board both portions. Only difference being that we stop 6 foot short during the process.

twpsaesneg · 25 Jul 2018

The last TPE service I was on that did it certainly didn't carry out station duties before joining. Announcement went out that the doors wouldn't open immediately, stopped short, then shunted onto the back of the unit in the platform, after which the doors opened.

Stopping short seems a reasonable thing to do so that a driver doesn't buffer up at too great a speed, as a conscious start from stationary needs to be undertaken. Also gives an opportunity to come to a clear understanding with the traincrew of the other unit (e.g. hang on a minute mate, we're just taking a disabled pax off the train) before the joining move occurs.

When I was younger I do have memories of Southern Region joins at Woking being done on the roll, so presumably something occurred to drive a rule book change.

Bromley boy · 25 Jul 2018

Dieseldriver said:
UK services do routinely couple/uncouple with passengers on board both portions. Only difference being that we stop 6 foot short during the process.

Indeed.

It’s difficult to see where the OP is coming from on this. Trains in the U.K. are routinely coupled when in passenger service.

nlogax · 25 Jul 2018

Bromley boy said:
Indeed.

It’s difficult to see where the OP is coming from on this. Trains in the U.K. are routinely coupled when in passenger service.

Quite! Any insomniac Caledonian Sleeper passenger would attest to this. Though I appreciate that's LHCS and not units.

swt_passenger · 25 Jul 2018

kimflop said:
... and we certainly don't couple up immediately without stopping and doing station duties first?

Yes we do, in my experience on both SN and SWR (and previously SWT). A joining unit couples first then it’s doors are opened.

theironroad · 25 Jul 2018

Swr desiro attachments often take place with passengers on both sections. Originally when swt got desiros, it was possible to attach to the stationary unit with the stationary unit's doors open, but a number of software faults used to occur so the operating practice was changed so that all doors must be closed prior to the attachment. Passengers on the arriving unit have to wait until the attachment is complete and electronically configured before doors are released. Swr policy is for attaching unit to stop 6 feet short of unit to be attached to (national rule book) but then to stop as close as possible without contact (easier said than done at times!!!l . This was introduced so that the electrical couplings have a gentler contact rather than a higher force load which can damage the pins in the couplers.

On an empty unit waiting for another train to attach to, the doors are kept closed partially because there may be no competent person to close the doors prior to the attachment if they had been opened when the ECS arrived and also, if there is someone available to close the doors, it was found that people arriving for the train at the last minute started to flap and panic when they saw people sat on the previously empty train and the doors closed, thinking they'd missed the train and throwing accusations and abuse at station staff that the train was leaving early. In fact the doors would be reopened after the attachment has occured , but by then it was too late. I do acknowledge that in very cold or hot weather, it can be a wee bit annoying to have to shiver/roast on the platform rather than a hopefully air conditioned train....

Esker-pades · 25 Jul 2018

theironroad said:
...if there is someone available to close the doors, it was found that people arriving for the train at the last minute started to flap and panic when they saw people sat on the previously empty train and the doors closed, thinking they'd missed the train and throwing accusations and abuse at station staff that the train was leaving early....

This happens at Cambridge when the services from King's Lynn arrive to attach to more coaches before continuing for London. The coaches already in the platform are unlocked until the King's Lynn portion arrives, where they are then locked for a couple of minutes while attatchment takes place. They are then re-opened. People do appear rather confused.

theironroad · 25 Jul 2018

nlogax said:
Quite! Any insomniac Caledonian Sleeper passenger would attest to this. Though I appreciate that's LHCS and not units.

You don't even need to be an insomniac, as any northbound lowlander will witness for the Carstairs wake up alarm.

A few years back when they announced they'd be replacing the sleeper stock , a ride of optimism rose in me that the new stock would be based on multiple units and that the sleep disturbance of Carstairs would be consigned to history.......little did I know how wrong I'd be

axlecounter · 25 Jul 2018

DenmarkRail said:
Britain has the worst record of over protective nannying for health and safety... This streatches beyond railways. It is ridiculous.

You may want to look at how this works in Italy, might change your mind :lol:

theironroad · 25 Jul 2018

DenmarkRail said:
Britain has the worst record of over protective nannying for health and safety... This streatches beyond railways. It is ridiculous.

....and I believe the stats show that the UK railways are the safest in Europe. Just saying.

SPADTrap · 25 Jul 2018

If you coupled a unit immediately as it arrived the impatient on board would pull an egress before coupling is complete.

swt_passenger · 25 Jul 2018

SPADTrap said:
If you coupled a unit immediately as it arrived the impatient on board would pull an egress before coupling is complete.

But we already can and do couple on arrival before door release, as some of us have just explained.

SPADTrap · 25 Jul 2018

swt_passenger said:
But we already can and do couple on arrival before door release, as some of us have just explained.

I can't, once the cab is coupled and then a middle cab the door release buttons cease to function.

Bromley boy · 25 Jul 2018

SPADTrap said:
I can't, once the cab is coupled and then a middle cab the door release buttons cease to function.

On the stock I sign it’s possible to couple mechanically and then release the doors before pressing the “couple” button which couples the units electrically.

If the doors are open on the unit being coupled to they will close if you press couple before “mirroring” the doors.

swt_passenger · 25 Jul 2018

SPADTrap said:
I can't, once the cab is coupled and then a middle cab the door release buttons cease to function.

But that’s part of the problem. People are posting what they are familiar with as though it is a general thing across all stock, it may well be the case with whatever you are on but it isn’t for SWT Desiros.

For accuracy I’m not trying to explain how or where they control the door release from, just the order in which things happen as seen by a passenger.

SPADTrap · 25 Jul 2018

swt_passenger said:
But that’s part of the problem. People are posting what they are familiar with as though it is a general thing across all stock, it may well be the case with whatever you are on but it isn’t for SWT Desiros.

No I'm posting what is a likely better scenario for getting people on and off trains, I can't see many people wanting to wait 5-10 minutes after reaching a London terminal for the train to be attached and doors opened, especially if the attachment doesn't complete first time. Lots have connections to make. People on my route are up and at the doors 10 minutes before arriving in London, I don't think they'd appreciate the wait.

Bromley boy · 25 Jul 2018

SPADTrap said:
No I'm posting what is a likely better scenario for getting people on and off trains, I can't see many people wanting to wait 5-10 minutes after reaching a London terminal for the train to be attached and doors opened, especially if the attachment doesn't complete first time. Lots have connections to make.

General procedure when coupling up units at a London terminal (I sign more than one) would be to stop a few feet back, release doors to allow passengers to disembark, open the cab door on the unit to be coupled to, make an announcement, close doors and attach (with platform staff standing by the cab to confirm it’s safe to proceed).

swt_passenger · 25 Jul 2018

Bromley boy said:
General procedure when coupling up units at a London terminal (I sign more than one) would be to stop a few feet back, release doors to allow passengers to disembark, open the cab door on the unit to be coupled to, make an announcement, close doors and attach (with platform staff standing by the cab to confirm it’s safe to proceed).

To me that’s a completely separate scenario to the original question. I was thinking about attachment of two services ‘en route’, but having a different procedure at a terminus when joining for a subsequent departure (where I’d expect there to be no urgency) is a different matter.

SPADTrap · 25 Jul 2018

Bromley boy said:
General procedure when coupling up units at a London terminal (I sign more than one) would be to stop a few feet back, release doors to allow passengers to disembark, open the cab door on the unit to be coupled to, make an announcement, close doors and attach (with platform staff standing by the cab to confirm it’s safe to proceed).

Which I think is the best way at a London Terminal but on reflection, if the stock is up to it, coupling first might be best at an en-route station, as per swt_passenger's description.

Coupling of Units (Pedantic?)

Member

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member