Court fine and collection order

steadman0 · 27 Jul 2018

Hi all, I am looking for some help/advice.

So I need some advice regarding a penalty fair that I was issued for being unable to provide a train ticket when requested.

The station that I got on the train at is not manned and does not have a ticket machine that accepts cash so I was unable to buy a ticket before I traveled as I was on my way to town to pick up my bank card that I had delivered to my bank and therefore only had cash on me. I explained this but was still given a penalty fair and was told that I would need to write a letter to the address and appeal against it. I did this a few days after and never received a response back. 6 months went by and I had forgotten all about it.

Yesterday I received a letter from the court stating that the court has made a collection order and listing some fees. The letter has a case number on it which I assume means that I was taken to court but had no knowledge of this.

The letter I have received was dated almost 2 weeks ago, which isn't too uncommon. Due to my housing situation my post is generally late, if I receive it at all.

I assume that I should have received a court date by post but never received it, but surly if it was sent via post I would have had to sign to say that I received it?

I do not know where to go from here and would like some advice. I still do not feel that I should have received the penalty fair due to the fact that I was unable to purchase a ticket despite trying to the best of my ability at the time. If I had received a response to my appeal I would have just paid the fine as I was clearly unsuccessful.

Let me know if you need anymore information, I tried not to make it too long.

Thanks in advance.

James.

RailUK Forums

najaB · 27 Jul 2018

steadman0 said:
I assume that I should have received a court date by post but never received it, but surly if it was sent via post I would have had to sign to say that I received it?

No. They can be delivered without a signature.

steadman0 said:
Yesterday I received a letter from the court stating that the court has made a collection order and listing some fees. The letter has a case number on it which I assume means that I was taken to court but had no knowledge of this.

It sounds that way, yes.

steadman0 said:
I do not know where to go from here and would like some advice.

If you were truly unaware of the case having been heard in court, then you should make a statutory declaration to that effect. It is a sworn statement so you risk a perjury conviction if you aren't being honest, but it has the effect of setting the conviction aside and moving things back to the plea stage.

steadman0 said:
I still do not feel that I should have received the penalty fair due to the fact that I was unable to purchase a ticket despite trying to the best of my ability at the time.

Iff things are exactly as described, then no you should not.

cuccir · 27 Jul 2018

najaB said:
If you were truly unaware of the case having been heard in court, then you should make a statutory declaration to that effect. It is a sworn statement so you risk a perjury conviction if you aren't being honest, but it has the effect of setting the conviction aside and moving things back to the plea stage.

Just to elaborate on this - you can make a statutory declaration at the magistrates court where you were convicted. You need to do this within 21 days of hearing of your conviction. You should be prepared to enter your plea of guilty/not guilty at the court.

Once you've done this, get in touch immediately with the train operating company - by writing to the address on the back of your penalty fare. If all is as you described, then you should not have been given the penalty fare.

steadman0 · 27 Jul 2018

najaB said:
No. They can be delivered without a signature.
It sounds that way, yes.
If you were truly unaware of the case having been heard in court, then you should make a statutory declaration to that effect. It is a sworn statement so you risk a perjury conviction if you aren't being honest, but it has the effect of setting the conviction aside and moving things back to the plea stage.
Iff things are exactly as described, then no you should not.

Thanks for your reply. I assumed that at the very least they would require a signature, if not be hand delivered. The problem is where I live there is an upstairs and downstairs flat and upstairs let their dog roam the front garden all day so the postman refuses to enter the garden which means I do not get post. I get some letters normally a week or 2 late with "no access to front door" or "dog in garden" written on the envelope but I have also had a number of letters never turn up.

I just have a couple more questions if you can help.

If I make that declaration, which I will do if they will allow me. I assume that means that I will be given a new court date, will they be able to tell me this over the phone? If not, can I get it sent to a different address than mine so I know I will receive it?

Also, would I be able to change courts, the letter than I have just received has come from Berkshire court which is 3 hours each way from me. I would have thought that it would have been at Maidstone which is where I was given the penalty and only 20 minutes from me.

Thanks a lot for your help.

steadman0 · 27 Jul 2018

cuccir said:
Just to elaborate on this - you can make a statutory declaration at the magistrates court where you were convicted. You need to do this within 21 days of hearing of your conviction. You should be prepared to enter your plea of guilty/not guilty at the court.

Once you've done this, get in touch immediately with the train operating company - by writing to the address on the back of your penalty fare. If all is as you described, then you should not have been given the penalty fare.

So I have to declare this at the court and not via letter? As I have said in my last post, the court that the letter came from is 3 hours away on a good day.

furlong · 27 Jul 2018

3 hours away? Make sure you find out all the details then first - perhaps this relates to some different unrelated incident?

steadman0 · 27 Jul 2018

furlong said:
3 hours away? Make sure you find out all the details then first - perhaps this relates to some different unrelated incident?

No it says on the letter that the offence was "board a train in non compulsory ticket area without a valid ticket"

najaB · 27 Jul 2018

steadman0 said:
No it says on the letter that the offence was "board a train in non compulsory ticket area without a valid ticket"

Oh, wow. That just makes it even less fair - you cannot, by definition, be guilty of a Byelaw 18 offence if there's no facilities for you to pay your fare. I presume there was no PERTIS machine at the station?

steadman0 · 27 Jul 2018

najaB said:
Oh, wow. That just makes it even less fair - you cannot, by definition, be guilty of a Byelaw 18 offence if there's no facilities for you to pay your fare. I presume there was no PERTIS machine at the station?

There used to be a PERTIS machine a couple of years ago but they took that out because kids/vandals kept trying to break into it. They replaced it with a self service terminal but it does not accept cash, only card. I only had cash on me as I was on my way to my bank to collect my new card which I had delivered there so I would receive it on time.

I spoke to the inspector before I got on the train and asked to buy a ticket and was just told to buy one at the station. The inspectors seem to always just sit in the drivers part on the opposite end of the train. They do not even get out at the stations to make sure it is safe, they just lean out the window.

I again requested to buy a ticket when I got there but he was only interested in issuing me a PF. I asked how that is fair when I was not trying to avoid paying for a ticket but he didn't seem to care - maybe they have targets on how many they issue or they get money from each one I assumed but I am not sure on that.

I think the thing that annoys me the most about all of it is the amount of times I have been on a train and been stopped at a station for 20 minutes because some stupid teenager is trying to hide in the toilets so he doesn't have to pay for a ticket and then we just have to wait until he decides to leave, with no action being taken against him.

Would I have a good case to plea not guilty as in my opinion there was nothing more I could do to buy a ticket? The total amount they asked me to pay is £385 which is nearly 100x more than the £3.90 ticket would have cost if someone would have let my buy one. My main problem is that I have a clean record and do not want a criminal record on my file.

Gareth Marston · 27 Jul 2018

Where did you board James? (This is important)

steadman0 · 27 Jul 2018

Gareth Marston said:
Where did you board James? (This is important)

East Malling.

221129 · 27 Jul 2018

steadman0 said:
East Malling.

Which is a Penalty Fare Station. And also by the looks of it has a PERTIS machine so it does look like the Penalty Fare could be valid.

Whopper · 27 Jul 2018

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 state:

there are no facilities in operation for the sale of a travel ticket if—

(a)the passenger is not able to use any means of payment the passenger has available at the relevant time; and

(b)the passenger would usually be able to purchase a travel ticket at the station in question at the relevant time of day using one of those means of payment.

Although it was card only and you were aware of this the penalty fare would be valid even if you had the cash for your fare.

steadman0 · 27 Jul 2018

221129 said:
Which is a Penalty Fare Station. And also by the looks of it has a PERTIS machine so it does look like the Penalty Fare could be valid.

Yes it is a PF station, I have no arguments with that. As I have said they no longer have a PERTIS machine but I do understand what you are saying but I don't see how I can be penalised for only having cash on me and no card.

Whopper · 27 Jul 2018

steadman0 said:
Yes it is a PF station, I have no arguments with that. As I have said they no longer have a PERTIS machine but I do understand what you are saying but I don't see how I can be penalised for only having cash on me and no card.

you knew it was card only and didn't have a card to make payment. If you can normally pay cash but that option wasn't available on the day then it is not a penalty fare.

ForTheLoveOf · 27 Jul 2018

Whopper said:
The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 state:

there are no facilities in operation for the sale of a travel ticket if—

(a)the passenger is not able to use any means of payment the passenger has available at the relevant time; and

(b)the passenger would usually be able to purchase a travel ticket at the station in question at the relevant time of day using one of those means of payment.

Although it was card only and you were aware of this the penalty fare would be valid even if you had the cash for your fare.

The Penalty Fare Regulations may say this - however that merely creates the theoretical civil liability for a Penalty Fare. You can't be prosecuted based off the fact that you're liable for a Penalty Fare.

I very much doubt that the Act of Parliament behind the Penalty Fares Regulations allows the Penalty Fares Regulations to impose a penalty upon a passenger wishing to pay in cash, which is a perfectly normal method of payment - and legal tender. So I would have thought this part would be liable to challenge under the principle of ultra vires.

steadman0 · 27 Jul 2018

I wasn't aware it was card only at the time. I had never used that ticket machine before because my normal commute is from Aylesford and then on the way home I go from Maidstone to East Malling. So all I knew was that they had changed the permit machine to a self service ticket machine. I may have been wrong for just assuming that it took cash but I have never seen one that doesn't to be fair. I looked on the machine to see if there was even a way for me to just print off a permit to travel to prove that I had got on at that station but there isn't that option either.

Whopper said:
you knew it was card only and didn't have a card to make payment. If you can normally pay cash but that option wasn't available on the day then it is not a penalty fare.

steadman0 · 27 Jul 2018

Just an update on this. I have phoned the court and was told that I wasn't due to attend the hearing anyway but I should have been sent a form so I could plead guilty or not guilty via post before the case.

I have a date to go to the court and complete a statutory declaration but the closest date they had was 28th september. Which is 2 months after when the deadline to pay is that is stated on the letter I received. She told me that they have put that on hold for 1 month and then I need to ring up again after that month so they could put it on hold for a further month.

I have been able to get it moved to a court closer to me so I do not need to travel 90 miles each way.

MikeWh · 27 Jul 2018

steadman0 said:
Just an update on this. I have phoned the court and was told that I wasn't due to attend the hearing anyway but I should have been sent a form so I could plead guilty or not guilty via post before the case.

I have a date to go to the court and complete a statutory declaration but the closest date they had was 28th september. Which is 2 months after when the deadline to pay is that is stated on the letter I received. She told me that they have put that on hold for 1 month and then I need to ring up again after that month so they could put it on hold for a further month.

I have been able to get it moved to a court closer to me so I do not need to travel 90 miles each way.

I'm not sure it's wise to hold off making the statutory declaration for that long. I'm not an expert in this area, but you might be better off going to a local solicitor, making the declaration and sending it to the court. I hope someone more knowledgeable will be along soon.

najaB · 27 Jul 2018

MikeWh said:
I'm not sure it's wise to hold off making the statutory declaration for that long. I'm not an expert in this area, but you might be better off going to a local solicitor, making the declaration and sending it to the court.

This is good advice. That said, if the OP has proof that they contacted the Court and were given that date to attend then I believe they've met the 21-day requirement.

steadman0 · 27 Jul 2018

MikeWh said:
I'm not sure it's wise to hold off making the statutory declaration for that long. I'm not an expert in this area, but you might be better off going to a local solicitor, making the declaration and sending it to the court. I hope someone more knowledgeable will be along soon.

Well I wasn't too sure myself with it being that far away. But I was on hold or about 20 minutes because she didn't know what form it was she had to fill out so I am hoping she has filled the correct form out.

Towards the end of the call she said that before she processes it she is going to talk to someone else because it might be best to apply for the case to be reopened rather than a statitory declaration.

She is going to send the paperwork/letters to my parents address from now on so I will not have any problems receiving them.

I would also prefer to be there for the hearing rather than it just be a case where I plea via post and then not know what is happeneing untill I receive a letter.

najaB · 27 Jul 2018

steadman0 said:
Towards the end of the call she said that before she processes it she is going to talk to someone else because it might be best to apply for the case to be reopened rather than a statitory declaration.

As far as I know, the only way this will happen is as a result of you making the declaration.

steadman0 · 27 Jul 2018

najaB said:
As far as I know, the only way this will happen is as a result of you making the declaration.

I have no idea, seems like she wasn't too sure herself. As she said to me "I don't know how this works that much, I just answer the phones" there was also no one else that I could talk to apparently. I guess I just wait for the paperwork and go from there.

yorkie · 27 Jul 2018

Whopper said:
Although it was card only ~~and you were aware of this~~ the penalty fare would be valid even if you had the cash for your fare.

This is not correct.

And the part I've struck out is irrelevant.

A list of accepted payment methods is available on the National Rail Enquiries website; any decision by a train company to offer reduced payment methods at any particular station does not alter this.

najaB · 27 Jul 2018

steadman0 said:
I would also prefer to be there for the hearing rather than it just be a case where I plea via post and then not know what is happeneing untill I receive a letter.

If you plead not-guilty then there will be a hearing.

DaveNewcastle · 28 Jul 2018

MikeWh said:
I'm not sure it's wise to hold off making the statutory declaration for that long. I'm not an expert in this area, but you might be better off going to a local solicitor, making the declaration and sending it to the court.

That's correct. There is a strict time limit to making the Declaration and you should NOT delay. Yes, the Declaration doesn't have to be made in a Court - you can do it in any local solicitor's office, so no long journey is required, but you do have to do it soon.

steadman0 said:
I have no idea, seems like she wasn't too sure herself. As she said to me "I don't know how this works that much, I just answer the phones" there was also no one else that I could talk to apparently. I guess I just wait for the paperwork and go from there.

Please don't wait. As she told you, she is a receptionist, not a lawyer or clerk. She clearly is unaware of the Procedure when making a Declaration and how it becomes effective.

steadman0 · 5 Oct 2018

Hi all, so I thought I would update this thread with an outcome incase anyone comes across this while browsing the forum.

I was supposed to have my statutory declaration last Friday but after attending I was told that I would have to come back today because there was a long case going on in the court room and I would be able to do my statutory declaration and have my hearding on the same day.

I attended today and the prosecutor was in the waiting room and spoke to, he asked how I received the penatly fare in the first place, I explained and he said he would withdraw the charge as he knew that he wouldn't win because it wasn't my fault I was unable to purchase the ticket.

So it was worth taking to court for me and I am thankful for everyones advice that helped through out the thread.

To those that told me not to wait until my date to do my stat dec, I spoke with my local solicitor's office and was told that as long as I had phoned the court to inform them about the stat dec then it didn't matter than I had to wait a couple of months to do it. I did however keep the recording of the phonecall to the court regarding the stat dec until today incase there was a problem.

MotCO · 5 Oct 2018

Thanks for letting us know the outcome -and a good one at that. It's always good to hear how things turned out.

MikeWh · 5 Oct 2018

steadman0 said:
To those that told me not to wait until my date to do my stat dec, I spoke with my local solicitor's office and was told that as long as I had phoned the court to inform them about the stat dec then it didn't matter than I had to wait a couple of months to do it. I did however keep the recording of the phonecall to the court regarding the stat dec until today incase there was a problem.

This is a particularly useful thing to know, so thanks indeed for coming back to us.

shredder1 · 9 Oct 2018

Lovely to read a result like this, you won and rightly so, what a shame they couldnt compensate you for all the hassle you have had to go though.

Court fine and collection order

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