Edinburgh Gateway - A White Elephant ?

berneyarms · 6 Apr 2018

benbristow said:
Captive audience. Same as charging more for food etc. What else are you going to do? Walk?

Absolutely - just rather unfair for local stopping buses to charge the same fare as an express bus.

Anyhow that’s the principle involved - charge a premium for all passengers to/from the airport irrespective of distance travelled.

RailUK Forums

SouthSub · 6 Apr 2018

I believe any proposals for a station at Kirkliston have been of the wishful thinking variety from local politicians and residents, rather than being on any development plans. While it would be welcomed in the village, as public transport is of a fairly low standard, the population is around 5000 and, as Altnabreac mentions, development is largely complete, particularly on the north side of the village where the station would be sited.

A station at Winchburgh would be of benefit to Kirkliston, particularly for travelling to Glasgow - it's only 5 to 10 minutes drive.

Statto · 6 Apr 2018

Must be rare, i know Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham Airports the fare is the same bus & or rail, as if you're travelling same stages or zone but not going to the Airport,

najaB · 6 Apr 2018

benbristow said:
What else are you going to do? Walk?

If I was travelling light I would walk from Ingliston P&R.

TheAlbanach_ · 6 Apr 2018

najaB said:
If I was travelling light I would walk from Ingliston P&R.

I've done that before! It's really not a long walk at all, with only hand luggage is very doable. Not with massive cases though...

backontrack · 6 Apr 2018

SouthSub said:
I believe any proposals for a station at Kirkliston have been of the wishful thinking variety from local politicians and residents, rather than being on any development plans. While it would be welcomed in the village, as public transport is of a fairly low standard, the population is around 5000 and, as Altnabreac mentions, development is largely complete, particularly on the north side of the village where the station would be sited.

A station at Winchburgh would be of benefit to Kirkliston, particularly for travelling to Glasgow - it's only 5 to 10 minutes drive.

Erm...Kirkliston is already twice as large as Winchburgh?

If you live on the south side of Kirkliston then you're still more likely to travel to the north end of the town than you are to drive to Winchburgh.

SouthSub · 6 Apr 2018

backontrack said:
Erm...Kirkliston is already twice as large as Winchburgh?

If you live on the south side of Kirkliston then you're still more likely to travel to the north end of the town than you are to drive to Winchburgh.

It's more like one and a half times the size, but future development is the main point - the plan for Winchburgh is for an additional 3500 homes in the village by the time development is complete. That will result in Winchburgh being potentially twice the size of Kirkliston.

I agree that as a resident you'd be more likely to travel to the north end of Kirkliston than Winchburgh, and in an ideal world there would be a station in both villages, but I just don't see a station being built in Kirkliston any time soon. Given that assumption, when Winchburgh does eventually get built, it will have some benefit to Kirkliston.

backontrack · 6 Apr 2018

SouthSub said:
It's more like one and a half times the size, but future development is the main point - the plan for Winchburgh is for an additional 3500 homes in the village by the time development is complete. That will result in Winchburgh being potentially twice the size of Kirkliston.

I agree that as a resident you'd be more likely to travel to the north end of Kirkliston than Winchburgh, and in an ideal world there would be a station in both villages, but I just don't see a station being built in Kirkliston any time soon. Given that assumption, when Winchburgh does eventually get built, it will have some benefit to Kirkliston.

I see, thanks. Hopefully it would be the case that the Winchburgh station would benefit Kirkliston, and indeed any insistence on there being another new station in the area may seem churlish, but as the railway would pass right by the town it seems an odd predicament.

Stopper · 6 Apr 2018

As well as eventually being twice the size, Winchburgh also lies on a better area of rail.

A possible Kirkliston station would lie between the Almond Chord and Winchburgh Jn. What services would call there?

Winchburgh is between Newbridge Jn and Winchburgh Jn which would give it an almost guaranteed 2tph to both Edinburgh and Glasgow on the Cumbernauld services (and given the lack of need and desire for these services, it makes me think this is almost a waste for Winchburgh too).

Winchburgh certainly justifies a station far more.

And ETA - As a Linlithgow passenger, I’d definitely consider driving to Winchburgh station if a decent car park was built, something lacking in Linlithgow. However, if only the 2tph Cumbernauld services served Winchburgh, then I’d probably not consider it.

overthewater · 8 Apr 2018

Who is going to pay for the Almond Chord? Housing development money is all emarked for new train station, new motorway slip roads, Keeping No38 bus service going ( there might be some spare pennies for improved 22a) and a new school.

So Would the benefit of building this help passengers? Remember those people still need to change again for the tram. Citylink operate a direct coach right into the airport. I bet First might think it would be worth while running the 38 in aswell. So that just leaves Falkirk....

Stopper · 8 Apr 2018

overthewater said:
Who is going to pay for the Almond Chord? Housing development money is all emarked for new train station, new motorway slip roads, Keeping No38 bus service going ( there might be some spare pennies for improved 22a) and a new school.

So Would the benefit of building this help passengers? Remember those people still need to change again for the tram. Citylink operate a direct coach right into the airport. I bet First might think it would be worth while running the 38 in aswell. So that just leaves Falkirk....

The Almond Chord isn’t all about Edinburgh Gateway, it’s also about adding capacity as the South Lines at Haymarket take around 14tph+ at times, whereas the North lines maximum is around 8tph, which results in a lot of South line services using the North platforms during busy times.

There’s probably not much capacity over the Forth Bridge but there’s capacity between Haymarket and Dalmeny Jn. Running E-G shuttles this way, as well as possibly the Dunblane trains, will reduce constant congestion and slowing down of trains at Newbridge Jn.

It will also allow a possible extra Stirling services, and maybe in time increase the E-G Shuttles to 6tph, both which are necessary IMO. It will allow Glasgow, Falkirk, Stirling and the West to be connected with the Airport by rail, in some senses, as well as giving Glasgow a proper fast link to Gogarburn/Gyle/Edinburgh Park business park etc, as the Bathgate link is a long slow stopper.

I’m unsure about the cost, and where the funds would come from, but I think it would be a very welcome addition.

clc · 8 Apr 2018

The cost of the Almond Chord was estimated at £175 million when it was originally planned so will be over £200 million now:

http://www.parliament.scot/parliame...&ReferenceNumbers=S4W-17248&ResultsPerPage=10

The original estimate for the full Edinburgh Glasgow Improvement Programme included provision of £175 million for the Dalmeny Chord. The estimate included two grade separated junctions and one flat junction.

overthewater · 8 Apr 2018

Stopper said:
The Almond Chord isn’t all about Edinburgh Gateway, it’s also about adding capacity as the South Lines at Haymarket take around 14tph+ at times, whereas the North lines maximum is around 8tph, which results in a lot of South line services using the North platforms during busy times.

There’s probably not much capacity over the Forth Bridge but there’s capacity between Haymarket and Dalmeny Jn. Running E-G shuttles this way, as well as possibly the Dunblane trains, will reduce constant congestion and slowing down of trains at Newbridge Jn.

It will also allow a possible extra Stirling services, and maybe in time increase the E-G Shuttles to 6tph, both which are necessary IMO. It will allow Glasgow, Falkirk, Stirling and the West to be connected with the Airport by rail, in some senses, as well as giving Glasgow a proper fast link to Gogarburn/Gyle/Edinburgh Park business park etc, as the Bathgate link is a long slow stopper.

I’m unsure about the cost, and where the funds would come from, but I think it would be a very welcome addition.

Any space will be going to Fife first.. that a given...

Stopper · 8 Apr 2018

overthewater said:
Any space will be going to Fife first.. that a given...

Really though? How many more services can be squeezed across the Forth Bridge? There has already been talk of diverting the E-G shuttles that way post-Almond Chord.

takno · 8 Apr 2018

clc said:
The cost of the Almond Chord was estimated at £175 million when it was originally planned so will be over £200 million now:

http://www.parliament.scot/parliame...&ReferenceNumbers=S4W-17248&ResultsPerPage=10

That was with both junctions grade-separated, which I would guess was anything up to 80% of the cost. You'd be able to gain a lot of the benefits with no grade separation, or just separation at Dalmeny, since the whole point is that by the time you get to Winchburgh a bunch of the trains have turned off towards Airdrie

mcmad · 8 Apr 2018

Since Winchburgh is only a slow (recently renewed) single lead junction then if you're going to replace it as a proper double junction you might as well do it properly and grade separate it.

InOban · 8 Apr 2018

Stopper said:
The Almond Chord isn’t all about Edinburgh Gateway, it’s also about adding capacity as the South Lines at Haymarket take around 14tph+ at times, whereas the North lines maximum is around 8tph, which results in a lot of South line services using the North platforms during busy times.

There’s probably not much capacity over the Forth Bridge but there’s capacity between Haymarket and Dalmeny Jn. Running E-G shuttles this way, as well as possibly the Dunblane trains, will reduce constant congestion and slowing down of trains at Newbridge Jn.

It will also allow a possible extra Stirling services, and maybe in time increase the E-G Shuttles to 6tph, both which are necessary IMO. It will allow Glasgow, Falkirk, Stirling and the West to be connected with the Airport by rail, in some senses, as well as giving Glasgow a proper fast link to Gogarburn/Gyle/Edinburgh Park business park etc, as the Bathgate link is a long slow stopper.

I’m unsure about the cost, and where the funds would come from, but I think it would be a very welcome addition.

As you say, the off-peak frequency on the south platforms at Haymarket alternates between 13and 14 trains per hour, made worse by the fact that all the junctions which gather these trains (Haymarket, Newbridge, Polmont) are flat. Hence the need for so many trains to weave to the Fife lines as they approach, and for all trains from Carstairs/Shotts being held, often for several minutes. When the stopper via Cumbernauld starts, there will be another two, of course.

The limit on the Fife lines is set by the number of stations before kirkaldy, so that the Aberdeen trains (nonstop to Leuchars) are catching up on the stoppers. Hence the idea for a new chord from inverkeithing to Halbeath. But that would be steeply graded.

47271 · 8 Apr 2018

mcmad said:
Since Winchburgh is only a slow (recently renewed) single lead junction then if you're going to replace it as a proper double junction you might as well do it properly and grade separate it.

I'm not saying it shouldn't happen, but how would grade separation work at Winchburgh, it's a very difficult low lying site as it is?

PaulLothian · 8 Apr 2018

Winchburgh Junction is west of the original station site and, other than needing to carve a westbound connection into the southern side of the cutting, probably not the worst challenge in the project.

Stopper · 8 Apr 2018

InOban said:
As you say, the off-peak frequency on the south platforms at Haymarket alternates between 13and 14 trains per hour, made worse by the fact that all the junctions which gather these trains (Haymarket, Newbridge, Polmont) are flat. Hence the need for so many trains to weave to the Fife lines as they approach, and for all trains from Carstairs/Shotts being held, often for several minutes. When the stopper via Cumbernauld starts, there will be another two, of course.

The limit on the Fife lines is set by the number of stations before kirkaldy, so that the Aberdeen trains (nonstop to Leuchars) are catching up on the stoppers. Hence the idea for a new chord from inverkeithing to Halbeath. But that would be steeply graded.

That’s why the new Cumbernauld services are really bizarre and puzzle me. They’re adding 2tph onto an already busy section, without the Almond chord. It’s not exactly as if these are massively necessary services either. I’d understand new services via Newbridge, if the Almond chord was open, but this just baffles me, there are already trains held around Newbridge Jn regularly.

backontrack · 8 Apr 2018

Stopper said:
That’s why the new Cumbernauld services are really bizarre and puzzle me. They’re adding 2tph onto an already busy section, without the Almond chord. It’s not exactly as if these are massively necessary services either. I’d understand new services via Newbridge, if the Almond chord was open, but this just baffles me, there are already trains held around Newbridge Jn regularly.

Sorry, but since you mention it I might as well ask: do you know whether the Newbridge/Ratho area also destined for a new station at some point?

Thanks.

EDIT: The above is also my 5,000th post!

Stopper · 8 Apr 2018

backontrack said:
Sorry, but since you mention it I might as well ask: do you know whether the Newbridge/Ratho area also destined for a new station at some point?

Thanks.

EDIT: The above is also my 5,000th post!

All I know is that the trams are supposed to be extended to Newbridge at some point in the future, I’m not sure about a train station.

backontrack · 8 Apr 2018

Stopper said:
All I know is that the trams are supposed to be extended to Newbridge at some point in the future, I’m not sure about a train station.

I see, thanks. I remember seeing an early map for the planned tram network and seeing two stations at 'Newbridge North' and 'Newbridge South', the former forming the western terminus of the tram route. There may have been a stop at Ratho as well.

Stopper · 8 Apr 2018

backontrack said:
I see, thanks. I remember seeing an early map for the planned tram network and seeing two stations at 'Newbridge North' and 'Newbridge South', the former forming the western terminus of the tram route. There may have been a stop at Ratho as well.

There was Newbridge North & South, aswell as Ratho Station and Ingliston West.

backontrack · 8 Apr 2018

Stopper said:
There was Newbridge North & South, aswell as Ratho Station and Ingliston West.

I see, thanks.

Voyager lad · 29 Jul 2018

I was at Edinburgh Gateway for about two hours yesterday, and aside from me and my mate, there was only 3 other passengers; 2 who got off a train from Perth by mistake thinking it was Waverley and one genuine passenger from the airport. It was my first time there and it really is useless. Only good thing was the staff were very friendly

Stopper · 29 Jul 2018

That’s sadly been the case for a while and it shows no signs of improvement. The ideal scenario for Gateway in my opinion would be 2tph GLQ (via a possible Almond chord), 2tph Fife, 1tph Dundee and the Perth services. Without the Almond Chord, I think it’s going to be very hard for ideal usage at the station. It shouldn’t be on the Inverness services.

route101 · 30 Jul 2018

What time did you go? I got a Perth 158 at Peak time around 530 a few weeks back and there was quite a few using it .

Voyager lad · 30 Jul 2018

route101 said:
What time did you go? I got a Perth 158 at Peak time around 530 a few weeks back and there was quite a few using it .

I got the 1246 Perth train (which was full and standing when I got on) as far as Inverkeithing

route101 · 30 Jul 2018

Voyager lad said:
I got the 1246 Perth train (which was full and standing when I got on) as far as Inverkeithing

Full and standing at 1246 , wonder why?

Edinburgh Gateway - A White Elephant ?

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